International Venezuela, The Socialist Dystopia, v2: Dueling Aid Concerts At The Border

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Arkain2K, Jan 24, 2018.

  1. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    45,048
    Likes Received:
    30,268
    Location:
    Sonora, Mexico.
    Gasoline subsidies disproportionally help those well-off, by a freaking lot, those who drive a lot but most importantly business owners.

    Also they were unsustainable to they had to go or it would had let to a crash in the economy (like we are seeing right now).

    We also saw a big decrease in production, also demand is probably an all-time low considering meat has vanished from the markets.

    No, thats not what i am saying, im saying that Venezuela was like other functional Latin American nations and far better off than neighbors like Colombia, it was at Argentina's level.

    Now its closer to Haiti, or even worse, since Haiti at least allows international aid to come in.
     
    ElKarlo likes this.
  2. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    45,048
    Likes Received:
    30,268
    Location:
    Sonora, Mexico.
    We have never been closer in history to fulfill the dream of independentists, to establish a continent full of liberals democratic republics.

    The only steps in the way is the troika of tyranny, Venezuela, Cuba and Nicaragua and once Venezuela falls the others will be effectively neutered.

    Here in Mexico its cynical how our president is supporting Maduro without outright saying so, Uruguay is the same, they dont want to be associated directly with the dictatorship but one needs to be a fool not to notice that Maduro's government helped them, like Podemos in Spain.
     
    Cuauhtemoc and ElKarlo like this.
  3. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    45,048
    Likes Received:
    30,268
    Location:
    Sonora, Mexico.
    ElKarlo likes this.
  4. Cuauhtemoc

    Cuauhtemoc Pragmatic Technocratic Authoritarian

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,594
    Likes Received:
    6,120
    I do not disagree entirely with your post but I will make a few comments.
    Why did Chavez create such an unstable system in the first place? Helping the poor is a noble goal but creating a system that is so vulnerable to oil price fluctuations is dumb. He should have hired some better economists. If he had, for example, left the large scale farmers in place, and used the oil money to give direct cash transfers to the poor instead of subsidizing ineffective farming there wouldn't be a total lack of food.
    US hostility contributed to the current problems in Venezuela, but what did Chavez expect? Why did he go against US interests? Didn't he realize Venezuela would lose?
    He could've achieved a compromise, make friends with the US, even use oil money to buy some of their weapons, hire american engineers to work there, do like the Saudis. A lot of money would still be left to help the poor. The US doesn't really want other countries to be dirt poor, they are happy with Saudi Arabia, for example, that for all its faults grew from a bunch of impoverished desert nomads to a prosperous country.
     
    ElKarlo likes this.
  5. moreorless87

    moreorless87 Disarming Posting

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    32,575
    Likes Received:
    18,556
    He didn't really create the system though, Venezula was setup as a oil economy depending on imports in many areas as far back as the mid 20th century. Equally for all the talk about him as some kind of communist revolutionary I would guess his policy was actually guided by trying not to antagonise the oligarchs too much, so he nationalised oil further and used it to fund social programs but he didn't dispossess most of the wealthy parts of society and indeed neither did he take control of most of the media. Growing an entire economy that rapidly isn't easy and when you add in serious antagonism between him and those in control of much of the production outside of oil it makes it worse.

    Again though I'm not claiming Chavez or Manduro are without faults but really what your talking about in very contentious economic policy from leaders who do have a clear democratic mandate in elections that have been well monitored. You also have an environment in which the opposition has a greater control of the media and indeed has been linked more closely to political violence. That to me is far from grounds to try and push though what looks like a soft and perhaps soon hard coup. If the people of venezula are really what the US cares about then pretty clearly the action that should be taken is pulling back from economic warfare/sanctions, the reality though is surely that this isn't the case, control of that oil and high interest IMF loans are the prize their after with little else mattering.

    I would point out as well that a lot of the refugees are actually people who crossed over from Columbia originally to escape political violence and are now doing the same fleeing back. Is backing a politican with strong links to far right political violence the way to deal with that?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
    Fronk likes this.
  6. Greoric

    Greoric Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    16,934
    Likes Received:
    8,114
    US allegedly caught sending weapons humanitarian aids into Venezuela to help with the crisis.
     
  7. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    45,048
    Likes Received:
    30,268
    Location:
    Sonora, Mexico.
    Right, lets trust commie propaganda.
     
    ElKarlo likes this.
  8. Greoric

    Greoric Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    16,934
    Likes Received:
    8,114
    Right, naturally. If true though, I don't mind. I have no problem with the US sending in the means for a country to exercise it's 308 veto.
     
  9. Arkain2K

    Arkain2K Si vis pacem, para bellum

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2010
    Messages:
    25,247
    Likes Received:
    15,242
    Location:
    Orange County, California.




     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  10. Arkain2K

    Arkain2K Si vis pacem, para bellum

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2010
    Messages:
    25,247
    Likes Received:
    15,242
    Location:
    Orange County, California.
    Venezuela military barricades bridge in attempt to block humanitarian aid
    By CHRISTINE ARMARIO and SCOTT SMITH

    [​IMG]

    https://www.apnews.com/011ef02872f5452e8114116573c9cd4c
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  11. Cuauhtemoc

    Cuauhtemoc Pragmatic Technocratic Authoritarian

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,594
    Likes Received:
    6,120
    Does Guaido have strong links with far right violence? I don't know much about him.
     
  12. Cuauhtemoc

    Cuauhtemoc Pragmatic Technocratic Authoritarian

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,594
    Likes Received:
    6,120
    I think there would be better ways to send arms and the Venezuelan military could very well inspect the aid shipments instead of blocking the roads.
     
  13. Greoric

    Greoric Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    16,934
    Likes Received:
    8,114
    What's the spin the Venezuelan govt is putting on this to convince their people that they're preventing food from getting into their country?
     
  14. ShinkanPo

    ShinkanPo Wild Imam

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    27,474
    Likes Received:
    17,026
    Location:
    Strange Realm
    uppercutbus likes this.
  15. moreorless87

    moreorless87 Disarming Posting

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    32,575
    Likes Received:
    18,556
    His party is actually a relatively small member of an alliance of opposition groups and his leadership of the national assembly is on a rotating basis. Opposition protests(which often take the form of not just protests but blocking off of streets) have a nasty habit of burning black people alive in the streets with claims of Chavista support and in Venezula generally you have a strong racial element to the political divide with right supported by more recent European immigrates from the 50's and the left supported by Mestizos and Black populations.

    Again the idea that Venezula is a socialism/communist nation is highly questionable, the reality is that control of most production and importation remains in the hands of oligarchs who support the opposition with claims that both aspects have been sabotaged to help lead to the current crisis.
     
    Fronk and Cuauhtemoc like this.
  16. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    45,048
    Likes Received:
    30,268
    Location:
    Sonora, Mexico.
    You keep peddling BS straight out of the Chavista manual.

    As i said, once you take absolute control of the monetary system, ignore property rights and establish strict price controls, you stop being a market economy.
     
    TheGZA and Rozko like this.
  17. ElKarlo

    ElKarlo Gold Belt

    Joined:
    May 1, 2005
    Messages:
    24,546
    Likes Received:
    2,338
    Location:
    Chiba Japan
    LOL and using old containers and a oil trailer. Looks really ghetto there Venezuela.

    People are going to see the aide being blocked, and it is only going to turn the people more against the regime. As aide will be smuggled in, through other means and word will get out that massive amounts are being blocked.
     
  18. moreorless87

    moreorless87 Disarming Posting

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    32,575
    Likes Received:
    18,556
    I'd say its yourself who reverts to the most simplistic right wing views, anything you dislike is dismissed out of hand "commies".

    As I said the reality is Chavez did not lead a communist revolution, instead he further nationalised(or renationalised) the countries oil business and funnelled a lot of the funds from it towards social programs from the poor, Would you gain say me that most of the economy besides oil remains in the hands on a smaller percentage of rich individuals who support the opposition?
     
  19. ElKarlo

    ElKarlo Gold Belt

    Joined:
    May 1, 2005
    Messages:
    24,546
    Likes Received:
    2,338
    Location:
    Chiba Japan
    Who cares who controls what now? It's a massively smaller pie.
    Also the military and upper govt own and control most of that's left. This is cleptocrcy or however it's spelt
     
    DespicablePeep likes this.
  20. samfromhtown

    samfromhtown Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    304
    Any sources on this?
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.