Vegan Gains bashing Joe Rogan

And I will add, work coming out recently is suggesting that we 'could' feed the world organically, so conventional GMOs may not be the inevitable necessity they are sort of suggested to be. Exactly where 'could' and should falls out though, with regards to tradeoffs between land use, erosion, fossil fuel use, soil degradation, ecological damage from pesticide use, superweeds, labor, cost, etc., remains to be seen.

http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...ld-as-global-warming-takes-hold-a6872501.html
 
Technically conventional (vs organic) will always win any debate over yield or efficiency , because conventional agriculture includes all organic approaches, and then some. What I mean is a conventional farmer can use manure, integrated pest management, biocontrols and all the great things organic farmers can do, and then if there they will be an improvement they can also add use of chemical fertilizer, herbicide and GMO seed when appropriate.

GMO crops has opened the door to no-till agriculture which is better for soil erosion. On the other hand, we have also seen a rise in superweeds and neonicotinoid insecticides along with their use. So there are certainly tradeoffs. A new metanalysis has demonstrated organic food can be more nutritious with more flavonoids and better fatty acid profiles for example.

And yes while GMO will yield better than 'big' organic, for some crops that difference is pretty close, and if the organic can use less use less chemicals and fertilizer that will run off and cause external environmental problems than there are clearly tradeoffs worth considering. Regarding which is vegan friendlier, I could see the claim being made that no-till is killing less animals mechanically or something, but that could be offset by poisoning with treated seeds or killing more bees with neonics.

I bring up the small scale model in particular, because with biodynamic techniques the addition of high labor inputs over small areas, yields can be much, much higher than conventional vegetable agriculture with even less inputs including fertilizer, fossil fuels, etc. In a world with increasing automation and an impending unemployment crisis I think this small scale model will be an effective part of feeding the world.

Interesting, I haven't seen it put quite that way before and I've been trying to make sense sense of the conventional vs organic debate. I was under the impression that conventional trumped organic in most respects.

For reference, this is the article I started:

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...st_them_is_full_of_fraud_lies_and_errors.html

And a video I watched awhile back, that I haven't checked all the sources on (I don't expect you to read or watch all this of course, just citing where I got some of my info).

I've gotten information from other places on both sides of the debate as well, but damned if I can remember random articles I've read and such.



And I will add, work coming out recently is suggesting that we 'could' feed the world organically, so conventional GMOs may not be the inevitable necessity they are sort of suggested to be. Exactly where 'could' and should falls out though, with regards to tradeoffs between land use, erosion, fossil fuel use, soil degradation, ecological damage from pesticide use, superweeds, labor, cost, etc., remains to be seen.

http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...ld-as-global-warming-takes-hold-a6872501.html

Thanks, I'll read this soon.
 
The anti-GMO movement is full of pseudoscience, morons, and alterior motives, which just creates all the better target for articles like the Slate one to take down. I will stop short of saying the create a strawman, because those really are claims people make that need refuting, but they aren't addressing the entire angle of where GMO crops fit in to modern agriculture and how they are being implemented.

Google Neonicotinoid and GMO for some articles - the use of chemicals and GM crops aren't inherently related, you can use neonics and other insecticides with non GMO crops, and you can grow GMO without the insecticide. But the companies that have been selling GMO seeds are selling this model where farmers don't need to do IPM, just prophylatic fungicides, insecticides, and herbicides (that the GM crops are resistant to). The use of some of these things are not necessary to grow a lot of corn, but this model of agriculture promotes increased use sometimes to all around detriment.

For example a study recently found the use of insecticides has only REDUCED yields - it kills predators of slugs which then increase in number and cause crop damage, but their use has been sold to farmers for years now as a new necessity.
http://www.chemservice.com/news/2015/03/study-insecticides-can-increase-slug-damage-to-crops-2/

In some utopian implementation, GMOs could improve everything. In practice, there are drawbacks, sometimes unexpected, and especially because someone has something to sell. It really needs to be weighed case by case and I think some precaution is perfectly acceptable, for example in the case of companies pushing corn farmers away from the IPM model that had worked just fine.

I liked this part of the Slate article:
The more you learn about herbicide resistance, the more you come to understand how complicated the truth about GMOs is. First you discoverthat they aren’t evil. Then you learn that they aren’t perfectly innocent. Then you realize that nothing is perfectly innocent. Pesticide vs. pesticide, technology vs. technology, risk vs. risk—it’s all relative. The best you can do is measure each practice against the alternatives. The least you can do is look past a three-letter label.

So while most of the anti-GMO crowd is full of shit, the pro-GMO crowd that is 100% for GM technology without any nuanced consideration can be full of shit too, because the technology isn't an idealized solution to every problem, their implementation is messier and more complex.
 
The anti-GMO movement is full of pseudoscience, morons, and alterior motives, which just creates all the better target for articles like the Slate one to take down. I will stop short of saying the create a strawman, because those really are claims people make that need refuting, but they aren't addressing the entire angle of where GMO crops fit in to modern agriculture and how they are being implemented.

Google Neonicotinoid and GMO for some articles - the use of chemicals and GM crops aren't inherently related, you can use neonics and other insecticides with non GMO crops, and you can grow GMO without the insecticide. But the companies that have been selling GMO seeds are selling this model where farmers don't need to do IPM, just prophylatic fungicides, insecticides, and herbicides (that the GM crops are resistant to). The use of some of these things are not necessary to grow a lot of corn, but this model of agriculture promotes increased use sometimes to all around detriment.

For example a study recently found the use of insecticides has only REDUCED yields - it kills predators of slugs which then increase in number and cause crop damage, but their use has been sold to farmers for years now as a new necessity.
http://www.chemservice.com/news/2015/03/study-insecticides-can-increase-slug-damage-to-crops-2/

In some utopian implementation, GMOs could improve everything. In practice, there are drawbacks, sometimes unexpected, and especially because someone has something to sell. It really needs to be weighed case by case and I think some precaution is perfectly acceptable, for example in the case of companies pushing corn farmers away from the IPM model that had worked just fine.

I liked this part of the Slate article:


So while most of the anti-GMO crowd is full of shit, the pro-GMO crowd that is 100% for GM technology without any nuanced consideration can be full of shit too, because the technology isn't an idealized solution to every problem, their implementation is messier and more complex.

Thank you once again for the links and the insight. This is giving me a new perspective and I'm glad to speak to someone more knowledgeable about this stuff than I am, and I'm glad to have some new articles to read.

Your position seems more balanced and you seem to look at everything thoroughly without being a strict pundit for either side.
 
HOLY SHIT someone changed their view in a vegan thread!!! On abortion lol.

Hey you realize abortion in the US is limited to 24-26 weeks, and 24 is the earliest the brain can receive pain signals from the nerves right? I suppose you have a case for those places the rule is 26 weeks...

What's your point? Some guy was asking me my views on abortion and so we discussed it. I'm not so invested in it to have an in-depth opinion on it so yeah my viewpoint is liable to change with increasing information about it. That shouldn't surprise anyone...
 
What's your point? Some guy was asking me my views on abortion and so we discussed it. I'm not so invested in it to have an in-depth opinion on it so yeah my viewpoint is liable to change with increasing information about it. That shouldn't surprise anyone...
Don't take it personally, I was kidding because it seems like one of those unwritten rules of the universe that noone will change their mind in an Internet discussion debating veganism. ;)

All the more power to you if you are humble and pen minded enough to do so and admit doing so. However since you said you changed your mind because you read fetuses feel being torn apart, I felt like I should point out abortions aren't legal past the point that modern science tells us fetuses feel pain. (Well, there might be a case to be made for states where is legal in weeks 25 & 26)
 
Don't take it personally, I was kidding because it seems like one of those unwritten rules of the universe that noone will change their mind in an Internet discussion debating veganism. ;)

All the more power to you if you are humble and pen minded enough to do so and admit doing so. However since you said you changed your mind because you read fetuses feel being torn apart, I felt like I should point out abortions aren't legal past the point that modern science tells us fetuses feel pain. (Well, there might be a case to be made for states where is legal in weeks 25 & 26)
No no, I hadn't taken it personally -- I just couldn't work out what your point was.

Also, whether something is legal or illegal it doesn't make it morally correct or incorrect. So I don't know what your point is for bringing that up either :)
 
No no, I hadn't taken it personally -- I just couldn't work out what your point was.

Also, whether something is legal or illegal it doesn't make it morally correct or incorrect. So I don't know what your point is for bringing that up either :)

You said what changed your mind was the fetus feeling pain. I pointed out abortion is illegal right around point that is possible, so the scenario you mentioned you read doesn't really happen (in the recent past, and in the US).
 
You said what changed your mind was the fetus feeling pain. I pointed out abortion is illegal right around point that is possible, so the scenario you mentioned you read doesn't really happen (in the recent past, and in the US).
Oh, okay, cool. To be honest, I don't really have a strong opinion on abortion but if I did it would depend on the circumstances which I'm not thoroughly informed about as you're alluding to. But in general, if someone (including animals) is forced to undergo pain for the pleasure (immediate or circumstantial), or due to irresponsibility, of the perpetrator, then I consider that to be morally incorrect. That's my stance on these matters.
 


One time Vegan, turned meat eating hunter Tovar Cerulli interviewed by Joe Rogan
 
Afaik, Nate Diaz is vegan.

And, I'm out.
 
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Nate / Nick Diaz / Jake Shields even-though-they're (Nick at least)-not-vegan-100%-of-the-time-and-one-is-a-vegetarian-bump.

Go Nate!
 
Anytime somebody says," _______ footprint" in an argument, I stop listening to them.
 
Nate Diaz is NOT a vegan.

Good grief.

Yes he is, since he was 18. Start at 16:15



Edit: He just says he doesn't eat meat, but he didn't refute the vegan title, and he's mentioned eating a vegan diet before.
 
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Yes he is, since he was 18. Start at 16:15



Edit: He just says he doesn't eat meat, but he didn't refute the vegan title, and he's mentioned eating a vegan diet before.


I should be more clear and say that Nate is not a 100% Vegan. Joe Rogan confirms this on his podcast as well. He appears to be a pescatarian.



 
I should be more clear and say that Nate is not a 100% Vegan. Joe Rogan confirms this on his podcast as well. He appears to be a pescatarian.





Ah, okay, thank you for the clarification.
 
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