Valve Handheld: Steam Deck

[Madmick]

Thanks man. Any idea if this will compete with desktop PCs for gaming? If so do you have a guess for when?

cheers

I don't see any indications Apple has plans to leverage the M line processors for gaming, right now. I'm just a salty, envious onlooker.

 

[Neph]

Yeah, that's the point. ARM is no longer the red-headed stepchild it once was. Apple already integrated x64-bit support into ARM years ago, now. The M1 and the M1 Max are principally aimed at stuff like video editing (for both professionals and the casual market). In some of the most robust software that is often used for benchmarking on PCs it's competing with the highest-end desktop PCs you can build right now. For content creators like YouTubers it is a bit of a miracle. Review the video PEB shared earlier in the Hardware thread:

An interesting set of benchmarks that have only just come out. Do you have any thoughts on this? Are these fair?

 

[Madmick]

An interesting set of benchmarks that have only just come out. Do you have any thoughts on this? Are these fair?

First, that's the M1 Pro, not the M1 Max.

Second, benchmarks like Cinebench focus on CPU performance, not GPU performance. Notice the iGPU application benchmark they show for the iGPU doesn't test the M1. The iGPU in the M1 Max is miles and miles and miles beyond the iGPU in the 12900HK for 3D video editing tasks. The M1 Max is like an RX 6600 XT while the iGPU in the 12900HK is like a GTX 1050 (the iGPU in the 12900HK is the same one as in the i7-1165U processor, just clocked a wee bit faster).

Third, they didn't compare a lot of benchmarks that would have had even the M1 Pro decimating the 12900HK due to the higher system memory bandwidth. The CPU itself is fed GDDR-like memory speeds in the M1 systems. It's maybe the most unique thing about them, and the greatest advantage they hold over all other hardware atm.

Fourth, the 12900HK's real-world power consumption is also nearly triple the M1 Max's.

Alder Lake mobile is good, and like Alder Lake itself, better than what everyone was expecting from Intel without a proper die shrink, but it's nowhere close to being in the M1 Max's class overall.

 

[Tigger]

Preordered mine in January, which means I'll probably get it in 2025.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

I hear supply issues are going down, knock on wood.

I ordered mine back in December, think will be a crap shoot on timing. They have to be incentivized to produce their higher mark up units first.

I wonder how big the dock will be and if it makes sense to get.

 

[GtehMVP]

First, that's the M1 Pro, not the M1 Max.

Second, benchmarks like Cinebench focus on CPU performance, not GPU performance. Notice the iGPU application benchmark they show for the iGPU doesn't test the M1. The iGPU in the M1 Max is miles and miles and miles beyond the iGPU in the 12900HK for 3D video editing tasks. The M1 Max is like an RX 6600 XT while the iGPU in the 12900HK is like a GTX 1050 (the iGPU in the 12900HK is the same one as in the i7-1165U processor, just clocked a wee bit faster).

Third, they didn't compare a lot of benchmarks that would have had even the M1 Pro decimating the 12900HK due to the higher system memory bandwidth. The CPU itself is fed GDDR-like memory speeds in the M1 systems. It's maybe the most unique thing about them, and the greatest advantage they hold over all other hardware atm.

Fourth, the 12900HK's real-world power consumption is also nearly triple the M1 Max's.

Alder Lake mobile is good, and like Alder Lake itself, better than what everyone was expecting from Intel without a proper die shrink, but it's nowhere close to being in the M1 Max's class overall.

Why are Apple's CPU's so ahead of the curve here, and what's stopping companies like Intel and AMD from matching them?

 

[Madmick]

Why are Apple's CPU's so ahead of the curve here, and what's stopping companies like Intel and AMD from matching them?

Because they're on the cutting edge in every facet.

First, they're on the 5nm process. Second, they use the hybrid performance+efficiency cores design strategy that Intel finally implemented in the desktop space. Those two combined account for a large portion of their efficiency advantage.

Third, per my comment about its ridiculous system memory speeds, the M1 was the first processor on the market that made use of LPDDR5, and remains one of the only capable of that. In fact, the latest Alder Lake mobile chips that just dropped don't quote above LPDDR5-5200 support, natively, while the M1 supported 6400 out of the gate. In addition to that, the M1 Max is simply monstrous, incorporating four dedicated 128-bit LPDDR5 banks. Its real-world throughput isn't quite as high as it would appear on paper, but it's still absurd at 224.0 GB/s actual. That's just nuts. That's the same bandwidth of the VRAM in the GTX 1060!

Yet this is memory bandwidth fed to the CPU, not just the GPU. For comparison, the specified throughput of the Steam Deck is 88.0 GB/s, and the Steam Deck is only that high because Steam doubled the channels to four specifically so it would have higher throughput for games. It's over double the ceiling throughput fed to the iGPU on the latest AMD Zen 3+ mobile processors, and nearly triple what is fed to the older Iris Xe iGPU in the Alder Lake mobile processors, and for either, that's if they're put in a laptop with a quad channel design. For context, say you have DDR4-3600 RAM running in dual channel in your desktop, which is what most builders target today due to bang-for-your-buck. Your CPU is fed memory data at a ceiling 57.6 GB/s. Sure, your discrete GPU's VRAM is way, way faster, but your CPU is sitting there waiting to catch up. That's a big reason that laptop is schooling even the most powerful desktops in real-world video editing tasks.

Fourth, these chips aren't designed for video games. Like server CPUs, one of the reasons for their superior processing power and efficiency is derived from more clusters in parallel design. That's why the the GPU clocks are so far below what you see in desktop GPUs, for example. This is another reason they're so efficient, but it's also because Apple wasn't concerned with catering to gamers where sometimes games depend on those higher frequencies.

After that, Apple just does a fantastic job of organizing the layout of the chip. It's not a Frankenstein of mixed and matched specs that are designed to be interchangeable with other processors. This is consistent with Apple vs. PC writ large. Windows laptops assemble a bunch of different potatohead designs from the same parts on the market while Apple designs each laptop individually as a whole unit. Each M1 processor is built from the ground up as a singular unit intended to operate only as itself. Meanwhile, recall how I told you these Alder Lake mobile processors are being integrated with the same Iris iGPU that goes onto the Rocket Lake chips. And that iGPU is married to half a dozen processors from each generation. The layout is what maximizes the efficiency of each portion of the processor working with the rest, and also of maximizing usage of the die space. It's a thing of beauty.

 

[Dinkin_Flicka]

Product page has been updated and mine now says after Q3 2022. #sadface

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Product page has been updated and mine now says after Q3 2022. #sadface

#metoo.

Makes me wonder if I should just wait for their second rendition, whenever that may be.

 

[rob mafia]

Why are Apple's CPU's so ahead of the curve here, and what's stopping companies like Intel and AMD from matching them?

they're physically gigantic (monolithic dies, ~432 mm^2 for max).

so basically, cost/strategy.

 

[Madmick]

Halo Infinite unsupported on Steam Deck due to anti-cheat software
Halo Infinite isn't one of the 26 Xbox games that will be playable on Steam Deck at launch

Steam Deck Verified games from Xbox Game Studios
– Deathloop
– Psychonauts 2
– Hellblade: Senua’s Sacrifice
– The Evil Within
– Fallout Shelter
– Prey
– Battletoads
– Max: The Curse Of Brotherhood

Steam Deck Playable games from Xbox Game Studios
– Sea Of Thieves
– Fallout 4
– Forza Horizon 5
– Forza Horizon 4
– Quantum Break
– State Of Decay: YOSE

Microsoft has detailed which of its Xbox Game Studios games are supported on Valve's new Steam Deck handheld - and which won't work at all.

Included in that latter category are Halo Master Chief Collection and the recently-released Halo Infinite, plus Gears 5 and (somewhat bizarrely) the old Microsoft Flight Simulator X.

Why aren't these games supported? Microsoft simply said it was "due to anti-cheat".

Destiny 2 developer Bungie has even gone so far as to state that it outright won’t be supporting Steam Deck compatibility, and that anyone who tries to force it to work will be banned. While Bungie claimed this was because the handheld uses Proton, Valve lists anti-cheat concerns as the reason the game isn’t supported on Steam Deck.

 

[Based and White Pilled]

I'm not super impressed with the reviews so far, but I am really excited about the idea of the Steam Deck. I'm probably going to wait until there is a second iteration or a "pro" version.

 

[GtehMVP]

Finally got my Deck order. Should have it early next week. Anyone get theirs yet?

I'm so excited! I've held off completing/playing a number of titles just for the road/mobile. I'm just as pumped about emulation, especially PS1 games.

 

[Dizzy]

Finally got my Deck order. Should have it early next week. Anyone get theirs yet?

I'm so excited! I've held off completing/playing a number of titles just for the road/mobile. I'm just as pumped about emulation, especially PS1 games.

Very envious. I’m still stuck in Q3…

 

[Dinkin_Flicka]

Finally got my Deck order. Should have it early next week. Anyone get theirs yet?

I'm so excited! I've held off completing/playing a number of titles just for the road/mobile. I'm just as pumped about emulation, especially PS1 games.

What pre order group did you end up in? I hemmed and hawed to long and didn't put a pre order down for about a week. Ended up in the "after Q2 of 2022" group, but once they started shipping it bumped to the "after Q3" grouping.

 

[GtehMVP]

Very envious. I’m still stuck in Q3…

The silver lining is that by the time it gets to you, it will run even better/have more features/game support. I didn't expect it for a bit, so I stopped looking into it for a while. Of course, now that it is on its way, I've been devouring as much info as possible. This thing is going to be an emulation dream.

I have some major buyers remorse though. Once I tell myself (again and again) that it's basically the Switch-like form laptop I've always wanted, my guilt eases lol

What pre order group did you end up in? I hemmed and hawed to long and didn't put a pre order down for about a week. Ended up in the "after Q2 of 2022" group, but once they started shipping it bumped to the "after Q3" grouping.

I was in Q1 initially, then got pushed to Q2, even though I tried ordering immediately. It took me about 15 minutes to get the order in when it went on sale

 

[Dizzy]

The silver lining is that by the time it gets to you, it will run even better/have more features/game support. I didn't expect it for a bit, so I stopped looking into it for a while. Of course, now that it is on its way, I've been devouring as much info as possible. This thing is going to be an emulation dream.

I have some major buyers remorse though. Once I tell myself (again and again) that it's basically the Switch-like form laptop I've always wanted, my guilt eases lol



I was in Q1 initially, then got pushed to Q2, even though I tried ordering immediately. It took me about 15 minutes to get the order in when it went on sale

That is true. They’ve done a phenomenal job supporting post launch.

Which model did you get?

 

[rob mafia]

The silver lining is that by the time it gets to you, it will run even better/have more features/game support. I didn't expect it for a bit, so I stopped looking into it for a while. Of course, now that it is on its way, I've been devouring as much info as possible. This thing is going to be an emulation dream.

I have some major buyers remorse though. Once I tell myself (again and again) that it's basically the Switch-like form laptop I've always wanted, my guilt eases lol



I was in Q1 initially, then got pushed to Q2, even though I tried ordering immediately. It took me about 15 minutes to get the order in when it went on sale

i mean, if you truly regret, you can likely EASILY sell it on ebay/cl/whatever.

fwiw, the other handheld pc makers (aya, gpd, onexplayer) are already making next gen systems with 6800U (gpd and aya are using 6800U, onex merely confirmed 6000 series but not the exact apu). but i don't have any idea of their lauch time/price/how their support would be vs valve. but if you want to stall on it to wait and see, there would be other options with better hardware (and probably more $).


eta:

more fwiw:

 

[GtehMVP]

That is true. They’ve done a phenomenal job supporting post launch.

Which model did you get?

I got the 512 version. From what I'm seeing now, I prob would have been better off going for the cheapest model and just relying on expandable storage. There seems to be very little.differemce in load times. The SSD slot is still there too, could always add to it later.

My big plan was to use the 512 SSD for windows mainly, but until they support dual boot, I wont be installing that.

i mean, if you truly regret, you can likely EASILY sell it on ebay/cl/whatever.

fwiw, the other handheld pc makers (aya, gpd, onexplayer) are already making next gen systems with 6800U (gpd and aya are using 6800U, onex merely confirmed 6000 series but not the exact apu). but i don't have any idea of their lauch time/price/how their support would be vs valve. but if you want to stall on it to wait and see, there would be other options with better hardware (and probably more $).


eta:

more fwiw:

I love how the Deck is spurring on competition. The pricing of those alternatives is far higher from what I've seen, and I'm sure these newer models they are teasing wont be cheaper.

Hopefully this market heats up more, cant.wait to see what comes.out of it.


Btw, being able to sell lessons my remorse too lol

 

[GtehMVP]

Anyone get their Deck yet?

I got mine about two weeks ago now. I've been so busy with work that I haven't had too much time to play around with it until the last couple days.

The first game I installed was Elden Ring. I didn't really want to play much of it, but I had to see how well it handled. It was surreal to even boot it up, let alone have it pull up my save file.

Valve let's you cap different framerates. I find 40fps is nice and stable for anything new so far, while still feeling responsive, especially ER/FF7. They look and play incredible.

It feels so comfortable in your hands. Despite its size, the weight doesnt feel much, and it's well distributed. It does get a bit warm, but never uncomfortable.

I dont like the paddles on tje back side, but it's nice to have more inputs.

The screen is a good size. I find it looks far better than I expected too, colour/vibrancy wise. I'd like to see smaller bezels and an oled display though.

I've since installed a bunch of games. I put most of my limited time into Valkyria Chronicles 4. It's the perfect.handheld experience.

I finally put the Deck through some paces yesterday and today when FF7 came out on Steam. I never finished it on my PS4. I didnt want too large of a gap between it and the follow up, so I deicded to hold out for a Steam version and here we are.

This really takes me.back to my many FF7 (og) sessions on my PSP and.Vita, including Crisis Core. It looks incredible and plays pretty damn well too. There tends to be some.stuttering in new areas, but otherwise I'm blown away.

I like playing it in my car at a coffee.shop, but I've played it on my pc too. Syncing the cloud saves is fairly.effortless too.

You really need a powerbank though. I can get maybe 2 hours before needed to use mine



I spent a few minutes trying to get some emulation going, but I'm going to need a few hours to familiarize myself with their OS. I wish it was windows.

Anyway, I'll post some more thoughts if I think of them, but so far I freaking love this thing. Those waiting for theirs, you're in for a treat.