Use "Hir" or Transgenders can get you fined by police

[Deleted member 159002]

I thought about that and came to the other conclusion because of the "request" requirement.

If I ask you to refer to me as Panamaican and you keep calling me Pancakian, you're probably doing it to be an asshole. And if you're my boss or my landlord then my position relative to yours is inferior enough that I might not be able to do anything about it without jeopardizing my well-being. You might fire me, give me a bad performance report, raise my rent exorbitantly or just not renew me. Race examples are always strong. Chinese tenant asks to be called "Joe" (something that I've seen - Asians with ethnic names who ask to be called by an American name), the landlord insists on referring to him as the "Chinese guy". If the Chinese tenant keeps making the "Please call me Joe," request - how long can the landlord ignore that before it crosses over into some type of harassment?

Your analogy doesn't work. It's possible to choose one's name. It's impossible to choose one's sex.

 

[franklinstower]

What if they decided to use a different name that day?

Ill cross that bridge when I come to it.

 

[meauneau]

Imagine the emergency services "suspect /victim is... ?"

 

[tonni]

Gender is not a social construct

Gender roles are, but that’s a different issue. Gender, aside from when it is synonymous with sex, just doesn’t exist. Women’s issues are sex based, not tied in with some vague and very confusing concept of ‘gender’.

Supposedly, 2018 version of gender refers to an intangible personal identity which is based on the male/female dichotomy of our biological sex, but then at the same time it is entirely unrelated to it. Whether or not it refers to biological sex seems to be completely dependent on the whims of gender theorists.

Boy playing with dolls? Obviously female traits therefore either transwoman or gender fluid.

Guy who doesn’t show any female stereotypes? Still can be a woman or undefined, self-created gender just by merit of claiming to be it.

It’s a rabbithole of nonsense.

 

[panamaican]

Your analogy doesn't work. It's possible to choose one's name. It's impossible to choose one's sex.

Yes but is it possible to request how you are to be addressed. Which is the point.

And, technically, no it's not possible to choose one's name on a whim. You have a legal name that's attached to your Social Security Number and supposed to go on your official documentation, including legal contracts such as your employment contract and your lease. You don't get to change it without first going through a series of legal steps.

My analogy works just fine.

Whether you're William and prefer "Billy" or you're trans and prefer "hir" (or whatever), in both cases you're altering the method by which you are to be addressed.

 

[Ripskater]

Monty Python with the Trans Social Justice movement. Way ahead of it's time

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Gender roles are, but that’s a different issue. Gender, aside from when it is synonymous with sex, just doesn’t exist. Women’s issues are sex based, not tied in with some vague and very confusing concept of ‘gender’.

Supposedly, 2018 version of gender refers to an intangible personal identity which is based on the male/female dichotomy of our biological sex, but then at the same time it is entirely unrelated to it. Whether or not it refers to biological sex seems to be completely dependent on the whims of gender theorists.

Boy playing with dolls? Obviously female traits therefore either transwoman or gender fluid.

Guy who doesn’t show any female stereotypes? Still can be a woman or undefined, self-created gender just by merit of claiming to be it.

It’s a rabbithole of nonsense.

Well put.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Yes but is it possible to request how you are to be addressed. Which is the point.

And, technically, no it's not possible to choose one's name on a whim. You have a legal name that's attached to your Social Security Number and supposed to go on your official documentation, including legal contracts such as your employment contract and your lease. You don't get to change it without first going through a series of legal steps.

My analogy works just fine.

Whether you're William and prefer "Billy" or you're trans and prefer "hir" (or whatever), in both cases you're altering the method by which you are to be addressed.

People have no obligation to call someone something he's not. If I'm not 7 feet tall, no one should be forced to say I'm 7 feet tall, even if I "identify" as a 7 footer. If I'm not Chinese, no one should be forced to call me Chinese just because I "identify" as one. Trannies are demanding that people cater to their delusions. It's the height of arrogance.

 

[panamaican]

People have no obligation to call someone something he's not. If I'm not 7 feet tall, no one should be forced to say I'm 7 feet tall, even if I "identify" as a 7 footer. Trannies are demanding that people cater to their delusions. It's the height of arrogance.

So, it's the height of arrogance to request that someone refers to you in the way that you prefer? That's asinine.

My name has a common shortened version. People usually ask me "Do you prefer X or Y?" It seems to me that people generally understand and respect the idea that people sometimes go by terms other than their strictly legal designation. People with PhD's request that they be called "Doctor" and people do that without issue.

But there's no point debating it. There are literally dozens of real world examples where people respectfully address people by their preferred name or title. If you have an issue with trans people asking for the same type of respect, it is about the requester being "trans" and not if people can/do request alternative methods of being addressed.

I don't share the same disregard for trans people so I'm never going to see this request as an unreasonable social/legal overstep.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

So, it's the height of arrogance to request that someone refers to you in the way that you prefer? That's asinine.

My name has a common shortened version. People usually ask me "Do you prefer X or Y?" It seems to me that people generally understand and respect the idea that people sometimes go by terms other than their strictly legal designation. People with PhD's request that they be called "Doctor" and people do that without issue.

But there's no point debating it. There are literally dozens of real world examples where people respectfully address people by their preferred name or title. If you have an issue with trans people asking for the same type of respect, it is about the requester being "trans" and not if people can/do request alternative methods of being addressed.

I don't share the same disregard for trans people so I'm never going to see this request as an unreasonable social/legal overstep.

Males role playing as females objectively are not women. Comparing that to going by a nickname is absurd. Your PhD analogy doesn't work either. These people objectively have doctorates. What trannies are doing is like if I demanded people call me "your honor" even though I'm objectively not a judge.

 

[panamaican]

Males role playing as females objectively are not women. Comparing that to going by a nickname is absurd.

Your post doesn't make any sense. Who cares if "Males role playing as females objectively are not women."?

It doesn't invalidate the basic ability to request how you are to be referred. Regardless of if they're trans or not, the request itself is valid. If you are refusing the request because they are trans, it's because you don't think trans people are entitled to make the request. Not because people asking is a problem.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

So, it's the height of arrogance to request that someone refers to you in the way that you prefer? That's asinine.

My name has a common shortened version. People usually ask me "Do you prefer X or Y?" It seems to me that people generally understand and respect the idea that people sometimes go by terms other than their strictly legal designation. People with PhD's request that they be called "Doctor" and people do that without issue.

These examples work, because there are two reasonable alternatives. But what if someone without a PhD or MD wants you to call them Dr.? What if your coworker wants to be called "Your highness"? Many more people would refuse, because it is not reasonable.

 

[panamaican]

These examples work, because there are two reasonable alternatives. But what if someone without a PhD or MD wants you to call them Dr.? What if your coworker wants to be called "Your highness"? Many more people would refuse, because it is not reasonable.

If I'm their boss or their landlord and I generally honor other people's requests...then I'd honor those requests too.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

If I'm their boss or their landlord and I generally honor other people's requests...then I'd honor those requests too.

Good. That's your right, and probably the nicest way to handle yourself. We're talking about legally requiring others to do the same, which is not so nice at all.

 

[panamaican]

Good. That's your right, and probably the nicest way to handle yourself. We're talking about legally requiring others to do the same, which is not so nice at all.

Legally, it's actually much simpler. Legally, you can't discriminate on the basis of sex or gender in many states. Many states are considering adding gender identity to that lists. The legally smart thing to do is honor the request and keep it pushing.

The preferred pronoun of your employees or your tenants is irrelevant to your engagement with them. There are very few legal explanations of how meeting the preferred gender request is onerous to the employer or landlord. And since they honor the requests of all of their other employees and tenants, it's even less so.

I know what you're thinking - they don't honor other people's requests. Sure they do. It's just that most of us make a request that aligns with the landlord's expectations. If my landlord or boss was referring to a guy as "her" or "she" and that guys said "I'm a guy, it's him or he," no one on this board would say "the pronoun doesn't matter and the landlord doesn't have to honor his request."

But when the requesting individual is a trans individual, people forget that they would demand the same courtesy if it was anyone else.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Legally, it's actually much simpler. Legally, you can't discriminate on the basis of sex or gender in many states. Many states are considering adding gender identity to that lists. The legally smart thing to do is honor the request and keep it pushing.

The preferred pronoun of your employees or your tenants is irrelevant to your engagement with them. There are very few legal explanations of how meeting the preferred gender request is onerous to the employer or landlord. And since they honor the requests of all of their other employees and tenants, it's even less so.

I know what you're thinking - they don't honor other people's requests. Sure they do. It's just that most of us make a request that aligns with the landlord's expectations. If my landlord or boss was referring to a guy as "her" or "she" and that guys said "I'm a guy, it's him or he," no one on this board would say "the pronoun doesn't matter and the landlord doesn't have to honor your request."

But when the requesting individual is a trans individual, people forget that they would demand the same courtesy if it was anyone else.

Adding gender identity to the list is bad law.

Your example of the landlord again is inapt, because referring to a guy as a she is a mismatch. It's unreasonable to refer to a man as a she because it doesn't match the real situation. Referring to a male who wants to be female is a much less clear cut situation.

 

[panamaican]

Adding gender identity to the list is bad law.

Your example of the landlord again is inapt, because referring to a guy as a she is a mismatch. It's unreasonable to refer to a man as a she because it doesn't match the real situation. Referring to a male who wants to be female is a much less clear cut situation.

My example is spot on. You simply overlooked a significant portion of what I stated. Most people make a request that aligns with expectations. And because of that people don't think about whether or not acquiescence is debatable.

The point of the landlord example is that the landlord uses a pronoun that doesn't align with expectations, it's a mismatch, as you say. But when presented with that mismatch, many people will suddenly behave as if pronoun usage matters.

To take the next step (tenant is still a guy) - if the landlord says "I think that person acts like a chick, so I'm going to refer to that person as she and her." Would you defend the landlord's ability to apply a pronoun that aligns with the landlord's perception?

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

To take the next step (tenant is still a guy) - if the landlord says "I think that person acts like a chick, so I'm going to refer to that person as she and her." Would you defend the landlord's ability to apply a pronoun that aligns with the landlord's perception?

Legally? Of course I'd defend it.

 

[panamaican]

Legally? Of course I'd defend it.

Then my example made perfect sense. Mismatch doesn't matter. Per the above, landlord's can refer to tenants by whatever pronoun the landlord wants and the tenant just has to accept it. Is that a fair summary of your position?

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Then my example made perfect sense. Mismatch doesn't matter. Per the above, landlord's can refer to tenants by whatever pronoun the landlord wants and the tenant just has to accept it. Is that a fair summary of your position?

My main point is that it is reasonable to refer to a male as a man, regardless of whether he considers himself a woman and attempts to comport himself as a woman. Beyond that, yes I think the federal government should not be involved in how we address one another at all.