Media USADA tests under 100 picograms per ML

[Benoitthegr8]

@Post 2 Decision
The less transparent they are the less credibility they have. Novitsky (sp?) is a shameless opportunist and sell-out who made a name for himself busting Lance Armstrong and earning himself a big fat UFC contract to be their official Jon Jones apologist and excuse-maker.

He’s a vile human being who led a personal crusade to destroy Armstrong in a sport where everyone was dirty

 

[Conan the K-9]

Certainly there's a lot of them that will and do cheat but I don't see how there can't be a good number of fair players. They don't even necessarily need to be champ material winning every fight in order to be successful in the sport and be secure financially. Guys like Jim Miller aren't ever going to be champ but with his tons of fights he's had plenty of chances to make a living. Even in losses they are still secure as long as it's not multiple losses in succession.

I think there much more involved in cheating in combat sports than just PEDs. It is all kinds of bending the rules. And of course there are some things that are in the grey area and not really cheating but taking advantage of everything possible ( like weight cutting, favorable match ups, missing weight or pulling out of fights on purpose etc). You could also call it good career planning, but in reality it should be not involved in fair sports, where you are supposed to find out who is the best of the best.

I also think that there might be some so called clean athletes, who do not use PEDs but they are very rare at Championship level or even on a level where there is money and prizes involved.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

There's people across other sports who have been pulsing years after quitting their juice, and that's why I understand teh rool waz changed.

That was 3 or 4 year old info... back when Johnny waz pulsing, but they didn't have enough long-term data to make it official. I would assume they've been conducting tests that whole time that have officially verified teh claim... & so I would assume that's the reason.

Now we gotta talk about Jon over-turning his DC DQ yeah?

 

[JohnnyDragon]

Because amounts matter. If I told you that an apple has cyanide in it (it does), that probably sounds alarming. But we all eat apples without issue, because the amount is so small. The same is true for PED's. When something is measured in a picogram, it's at a scale so small it's almost hard to imagine. Trace amounts of anything can appear for all sorts of reasons, and it wouldn't be fair to penalize every athlete who has a non-performance enhancing amount of drug in them.

I know everyone wants to jump to conspiracies, but I don't see why this is so difficult to understand.

 

[krelianx]

My concern isn’t as much that those specific amounts are performance-enhancing, as it is that those amounts could be the remnants of a steroid cycle and USADA is now giving these fighters a pass. For TS, @TimeToTrain here is a link to USADA’s statement on this change, which is from 2019.
When they say “the science has changed,” what they mean is that they’ve gotten better and better at detecting trace elements of banned substances. My position is that USADA always had the ability to do an investigation and determine if a tainted supplement is the cause, and decline to punish a fighter—just like they did with Nate Diaz. To make these amounts of banned substances acceptable across the board is irresponsible and severely weakens the credibility of the USADA testing protocols, imo.

Nobody is claiming that the remnants are not the residues of a steroid cycle. They very well could be. But if an athlete serves a suspension, or took steroids before entering into competition pool, and still has residues on those amounts flaring up, should they be punished for it or continue to be punished, if the science shows these are likely long term residues?

 

[kflo]

@Post 2 Decision

Seems they rarely ever suspend anyone these days then. I'd have to do the research, but suspensions used to be way more common place before that fiasco.

The less transparent they are the less credibility they have. Novitsky (sp?) is a shameless opportunist and sell-out who made a name for himself busting Lance Armstrong and earning himself a big fat UFC contract to be their official Jon Jones apologist and excuse-maker.

novitzky had nothing to do with jones being allowed to fight. that was usada, smrt, vada, csac, nsac, etc.

 

[kflo]

He’s a vile human being who led a personal crusade to destroy Armstrong in a sport where everyone was dirty

armstrong was pretty vile as well. he destroyed more innocent lives than novitzky did.

 

[MMAcolyte]

novitzky had nothing to do with jones being allowed to fight. that was usada, smrt, vada, csac, nsac, etc.

Didn't say he did. But this article explains in detail the point I was making. Especially this part:

"In this matter, it doesn’t even matter if Jones is being truthful and he unwittingly took turinabol, because “The Golden Snitch’s” actions are so incongruous with his past deeds and persona. Now, Novitzky isn’t USADA and he’s not “going after” fighters individually, but by all measures, the modern incarnation of Jones is an athlete that Novitzky would’ve tried to obsessively nail to the wall in the past. Now, all of a sudden, he’s a substitute teacher who believes the class clown’s dog ate his homework every day, stumping for him in public?

Then again, Jones has perpetually been in need of a good public relations person. It looks like he might have found one."

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.she...Jeff-Novitzkys-Deal-With-Jon-Jones-130849/amp

 

[TimeToTrain]

Because amounts matter. If I told you that an apple has cyanide in it (it does), that probably sounds alarming. But we all eat apples without issue, because the amount is so small. The same is true for PED's. When something is measured in a picogram, it's at a scale so small it's almost hard to imagine. Trace amounts of anything can appear for all sorts of reasons, and it wouldn't be fair to penalize every athlete who has a non-performance enhancing amount of drug in them.

I know everyone wants to jump to conspiracies, but I don't see why this is so difficult to understand.

I’d like to understand the effect of a picogram. Keep in mind that Jones had 33 picograms in his system before the Gus 2 fight. How much is 33 picograms that can improve performance and recovery? I don’t know. Even a small trace means there is a trace. This is unfair to all other fighters who go through the same testing criteria and pass. It comes down to PED fighters versus non-PED fighters. The science can tarnish one’s legacy.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

It's not about the amount of picos.... If there is any trace at all it means the athlete was using and likely had significantly higher amounts at a different time and on top of that has likely been taking steps to mask their steroid use, so having even trace amounts indicates they were using.

I wouldn't even mind if there were no testing at all but this is just becoming a farce.

I think no testing would honestly be more fair, with the way they are doing it now the fighters with more money and better chemists will not get caught while the fighters with less money/resources will get caught.

 

[kdday]

I do care. It allows fighters to compete with PEDs in their system with small amounts still effective enough to improve their performance.

So better performances from fighters and faster recovery. If we're about fighter health, we need to actually have an honest conversation about the roids. I'm open to some things being allowed if it results in better fights and guys being able to recover back to normal after injuries in an accelerated time line

The only way the playing field is level is when everyone is playing by the same rules.

 

[Goutfather]

I think it’s naïve to think there AREN’T any clean fighters. To just assume that everyone there is as morally bankrupt as half these boards are themselves. It’s just catchy to repeat the line “everyone’s on steroids”.

oh im sure there are some. i’m there are some who start that way, when they’re younger, faster, more durable, etc. but for a clean guy who is 29, feels his body starting to slow down, and then loses a fight to someone who is 7 years older and clearly juicing, there’s a pretty clear choice: start using, or start losing. some fighters are enjoying their “prime” all the way to their 40’s. even when you account for fight mileage, there’s little chance that is natural. we would expect to see more people washing out for good in their early 30’s if they were all natural.

are there clean fighters? yeah. but they’re at a disadvantage, and you can expect their careers to be much shorter.

Don't cast your false sense of morality on others. I would say it is immoral to find enjoyment watching these human beings compete at a brutal level in an undeniable very dangerous physical combat sport without being allowed to take thereputic levels of commonly prescribed medications that help their bodies recovery from the intense training and punishment of competing in a cage fight so they can protect themselves from major injury and life a normal life afterwards.

big agree.

frankly id go further and allow them to be administered testosterone, under care of a doctor.

 

[kdday]

I’d like to understand the effect of a picogram. Keep in mind that Jones had 33 picograms in his system before the Gus 2 fight. How much is 33 picograms that can improve performance and recovery? I don’t know. Even a small trace means there is a trace. This is unfair to all other fighters who go through the same testing criteria and pass. It comes down to PED fighters versus non-PED fighters. The science can tarnish one’s legacy.

A picogram is a 1 trillionth of a gram, I feel like the picogram thing only became known about because testing has gotten significantly better over time.

 

[TimeToTrain]

I think no testing would honestly be more fair, with the way they are doing it now the fighters with more money and better chemists will not get caught while the fighters with less money/resources will get caught.

That will be unfair on all levels. Might as well go back to the original UFC 1 days with no weight class, minimal rules and juiced up fighters.

 

[Oldman1]

Because amounts matter. If I told you that an apple has cyanide in it (it does), that probably sounds alarming. But we all eat apples without issue, because the amount is so small. The same is true for PED's. When something is measured in a picogram, it's at a scale so small it's almost hard to imagine. Trace amounts of anything can appear for all sorts of reasons, and it wouldn't be fair to penalize every athlete who has a non-performance enhancing amount of drug in them.

I know everyone wants to jump to conspiracies, but I don't see why this is so difficult to understand.

Retarded analogy

 

[Rocket Punch]

somebody ask More Plates More Dates about this

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

That will be unfair on all levels. Might as well go back to the original UFC 1 days with no weight class, minimal rules and juiced up fighters.

How would no testing be less fair then testing that can be beaten if you have enough money/resources?

 

[icemun]

I am martial artist and i have competed in BJJ and would to compete soon in full contact martial arts i can tell u without a doubt i have never taken any peds..and i know several people just like me...

Not everyone cheats or uses peds .. this is a bullshit cope cheaters use to claim innocences ..

Like a girl who cheats and says well everyone cheats/experiment's in college...nope...no they dont

Oh yeah?
At what capacity have you competed?

 

[kflo]

Didn't say he did. But this article explains in detail the point I was making. Especially this part:

"In this matter, it doesn’t even matter if Jones is being truthful and he unwittingly took turinabol, because “The Golden Snitch’s” actions are so incongruous with his past deeds and persona. Now, Novitzky isn’t USADA and he’s not “going after” fighters individually, but by all measures, the modern incarnation of Jones is an athlete that Novitzky would’ve tried to obsessively nail to the wall in the past. Now, all of a sudden, he’s a substitute teacher who believes the class clown’s dog ate his homework every day, stumping for him in public?

Then again, Jones has perpetually been in need of a good public relations person. It looks like he might have found one."

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.she...Jeff-Novitzkys-Deal-With-Jon-Jones-130849/amp

again, novitzky's role in jones story is pretty meaningless. the experts and real decision makers stumped for jones before novitzky. the quote is trying to imply what novitzky was saying was unfounded or completely inconsistent with what the experts were saying.

 

[icemun]

This is a weird sociopathic defence for the scum that uses.

How is sociopathic? Exactly?

Also, its not a defense. It just stating reality, especially anyone whose knowledgeable of pro sports and MMA.

There are literally MMA promotions that have promoted steroid usage to fighters.

The majority of UFC HW champions have been busted even pre_Usada. Silvia, Silva, Vitor, Barnett, Mir, Bigfoot, Lesnar, Werdum, Coleman.

Its just a fact, whether is coincides with emotions or not.