Urantsetseg Munkhbat: The Reverse Omoplata Master

[Ishaq]

I think most would agree EITHER back control + hooks in OR side control with reverse omoplata are dominant positions for street. If we're honest, debating which is better is academic because if it comes down to it, you're going to take whatever the guy gives up.

Which brings me to my question for posters itt. Clearly the rulesets for both Judo and BJJ lead to some bad practices for fighting. Pulling guard or turtling = bad for MMA let alone street. But I'm on the fence on reverse omoplata to attack turtle. As shown in @Kaffe's vid above, Huizinga shows it from front facing turtle, a common position in scrambles. Would it make sense to go for this as opposed to say, front headlock to arm in guillotine, front headlock to gator roll/Williams turn or cross-face to far shoulder + grab opposite ankle and take the back? The latter three are my go to moves from this position.

In @EndlessCritic's OP, at 0:15 Munkhbat completes the footsweep for yuko and ends with uke flattened out with a clear chance for hooks in back control BUT she passes and instead postures up for the reverse omoplata. This makes sense under Judo rules where finishing a sub from back is hard to do before being stood back up. But in street if you had someone's back like that, you'd be a fool to pass it up IMO.

I am the first one to criticise BJJ rulesets and their bad habits for fighting, but Judo is infinitely worse.

The simple fact that BJJ has a much higher success and participation rate in MMA is testament to this fact.

 

[Ryo]

I am the first one to criticise BJJ rulesets and their bad habits for fighting, but Judo is infinitely worse.

The simple fact that BJJ has a much higher success and participation rate in MMA is testament to this fact.

No it doesn't. MMA is not a self defence situation.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I am the first one to criticise BJJ rulesets and their bad habits for fighting, but Judo is infinitely worse.

The simple fact that BJJ has a much higher success and participation rate in MMA is testament to this fact.

No it doesn't. MMA is not a self defence situation.

As a guy who's competed in both Judo and BJJ, I think they're two sides of the same coin and anyone who wants to be well rounded should train both.

But they both have deficiencies for street (as does MMA) and it's debatable which is "worse" (I don't care).

Pros for BJJ:
One of the reasons I moved away from Judo was the over-emphasis on TDs. I wanted to try to finish on the ground because even if I got thrown for Ippon, I more than likely could still fight. The vast majority of BJJers I've trained with would sub a Judoka of comparable training experience on the ground. BJJ also discourages turtling.

Pros for Judo:
Doesn't allow guard pulling so you have to fight for TD, which is better practice for street or MMA. 99+% of Judoka I've trained with would TD a BJJer of comparable training experience. BJJ unrealistically presumes you can get to the ground without being injured. Years ago in a match at Judo senior nationals, I got KO'ed unconscious via uchi mata onto a 1.5" competition mat, and I was competent in ukemi which most BJJers aren't. If someone were to suffer a throw like that onto concrete, that fight is game over.

Re. which is "better" for MMA begs consideration of their histories. JJJ was associated with street fighting and that's the image Kano wanted to clean up. Not to mention the IJF currently forbids athletes from competing MMA and has no provision for no gi. On the other hand, BJJ has been practiced without a gi and associated with vale tudo for many years. Until fairly recently, if you trained BJJ it was implied you were training "BJJ for MMA." Most would agree current IBJJF matches have diverged farther from MMA.

Do either of you have thoughts re. relevance of the OP technique for MMA or street?

 

[Ishaq]

As a guy who's competed in both Judo and BJJ, I think they're two sides of the same coin and anyone who wants to be well rounded should train both.

But they both have deficiencies for street (as does MMA) and it's debatable which is "worse" (I don't care).

Pros for BJJ:
One of the reasons I moved away from Judo was the over-emphasis on TDs. I wanted to try to finish on the ground because even if I got thrown for Ippon, I more than likely could still fight. The vast majority of BJJers I've trained with would sub a Judoka of comparable training experience on the ground. BJJ also discourages turtling.

Pros for Judo:
Doesn't allow guard pulling so you have to fight for TD, which is better practice for street or MMA. 99+% of Judoka I've trained with would TD a BJJer of comparable training experience. BJJ unrealistically presumes you can get to the ground without being injured. Years ago in a match at Judo senior nationals, I was KO'ed unconscious via uchi mata onto a 1.5" competition mat, and I was competent in ukemi which most BJJers aren't. If someone were to suffer a throw like that onto concrete, that fight is game over.

Re. which is "better" for MMA requires consideration of their histories. JJJ was associated with street fighting and that's the image Kano wanted to clean up. Not to mention the IJF currently forbids athletes from competing MMA and has no provision for no gi. On the other hand, BJJ has been practiced without a gi and associated with vale tudo for many years. Until fairly recently, if you trained BJJ it was implied you were training "BJJ for MMA." Most would agree current IBJJF rules have diverged farther from MMA.

Do either of you have thoughts re. relevance of the OP technique for MMA or street?

I'm sure someone very skilled in this reverse omoplata could pull it off in an MMA fight, but personally, if I see the back, I'm attacking the back with tunnel vision.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

The simple fact that BJJ has a much higher success and participation rate in MMA is testament to this fact.

You wrote this, but you don't really understand it.

 

[Ryo]

I'm not even talking specifically about this pin. I'm talking about Judo pins in general and knee on belly... it's good for real life self defence.... really good...

 

[Ishaq]

You wrote this, but you don't really understand it.

Oh I understand it. You don't.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Oh I understand it. You don't.

Clearly...

 

[ChickenBrother]

I'm sure someone very skilled in this reverse omoplata could pull it off in an MMA fight, but personally, if I see the back, I'm attacking the back with tunnel vision.

You and me both. As per previous post, I don't see how any grappler NOT competing under Judo rules would give up a back take like Munkhbat does at 0:15 of TS's video.

Where I think it gets interesting is if you're facing each other and both leaning forward or on your knees. Position I'm thinking of is other guy goes for a single and you sprawl low but he's still hanging on to a leg OR you do a snap down from collar tie and get him on his knees in front of you. In these positions I default to my wrestling base and either cross-face him to flatten him out and take the back or go for a front headlock series. Going for reverse omoplata looks like it might be a decent alternative to mix things up.

Interested if anyone likes to do this in BJJ, MMA or any other ruleset where pins are not a factor.

 

[EndlessCritic]

You and me both. As per previous post, I don't see how any grappler NOT competing under Judo rules would give up a back take like Munkhbat does at 0:15 of TS's video.

Where I think it gets interesting is if you're facing each other and both leaning forward or on your knees. Position I'm thinking of is other guy goes for a single and you sprawl low but he's still hanging on to a leg OR you do a snap down from collar tie and get him on his knees in front of you. In these positions I default to my wrestling base and either cross-face him to flatten him out and take the back or go for a front headlock series. Going for reverse omoplata looks like it might be a decent alternative to mix things up.

Interested if anyone likes to do this in BJJ, MMA or any other ruleset where pins are not a factor.

It's pretty rare that you see people attempt armlocks from that crucifix from top turtle at all. At 3:30 of this clip, Saadulaev aggressively attempts a straight armlock from the position. Considering how the fight ended, he probably wishes he attempted a reverse omoplata at some point!

 

[ChickenBrother]

It's pretty rare that you see people attempt armlocks from that crucifix from top turtle at all. At 3:30 of this clip, Saadulaev aggressively attempts a straight armlock from the position. Considering how the fight ended, he probably wishes he attempted a reverse omoplata at some point!

Not to criticize a pro fighter in his job, but I don't understand why he didn't go for hooks in with seatbelt. He spent literally several minutes on Le's back in position to do so.

But I can see this reverse omoplata from front turtle would be tough to get in MMA when you're slippery and don't have gi grips to maintain control.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I wouldn't have thought it would be legal either, btw, given that it is an obvious shoulder lock. I guess the shoulder lock prohibition is much more of a gray area than I'd been lead to believe though.

Bro....how many times do we need to cover this?

 

[Kforcer]

Bro....how many times do we need to cover this?

Well, you get a lot of different answers. The example you gave me of a Kimura, in that other thread, wasn't a Kimura though, so it didn't resolve that part of the issue bro.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Fuck I miss judo. I hope they deconfine sport clubs soon enough.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Well, you get a lot of different answers. The example you gave me of a Kimura, in that other thread, wasn't a Kimura though, so it didn't resolve that part of the issue bro.

Well that's just like, you know, your opinion, man.
You can call it a kimura or a pink elephant for all I care, but the torsion was on the shoulder at least partly.

I do concede that some of the torsion was on the elbow, however. Can you concede that the sub indeed attacked the shoulder partly?

 

[Kforcer]

Well that's just like, you know, your opinion, man.
You can call it a kimura or a pink elephant for all I care, but the torsion was on the shoulder at least partly.

I do concede that some of the torsion was on the elbow, however. Can you concede that the sub indeed attacked the shoulder partly?

It looked like a waki gatame to me. A Kimura is a figure-four arm lock, where you grab the opponent's wrist, weave your other arm under the opponent's and grab your own wrist. It is a specific hold, not just an armlock that attacks the shoulder.

But yeah, I agree that it attacked the shoulder and I see that things that attack the shoulder are going on all the time in judo. But it sounds like it is being allowed in spite of the prohibition, like an unspoken rule or something. And that in and of itself is certainly confusing.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

It looked like a waki gatame to me. A Kimura is a figure-four arm lock, where you grab the opponent's wrist, weave your other arm under the opponent's and grab your own wrist. It is a specific hold, not just an armlock that attacks the shoulder.

But yeah, I agree that it attacked the shoulder and I see that things that attack the shoulder are going on all the time in judo. But it sounds like it is being allowed in spite of the prohibition, like an unspoken rule or something. And that in and of itself is certainly confusing.

Oh my bad - I did not know that the kimura's definition was that precise. Ok well we are in agreement, then and yes, I certainly agree that it is some grey area.

If you like grey areas / shit that it allowed in spite of prohibitions, watch the throws in stadium muay thai. Theoretically you can do only do a very limited set of sweeps/trips, but every once in a while you see a monstruous hip throw without the slightest hint of a warning, lol.

 

[Kforcer]

Oh my bad - I did not know that the kimura's definition was that precise. Ok well we are in agreement, then and yes, I certainly agree that it is some grey area.

If you like grey areas / shit that it allowed in spite of prohibitions, watch the throws in stadium muay thai. Theoretically you can do only do a very limited set of sweeps/trips, but every once in a while you see a monstruous hip throw without the slightest hint of a warning, lol.

Yeah, Muay Thai was another one that confused me. Because I have witnessed the very phenomena you are describing.

My judo experience is severely limited and the vast majority of my grappling experience is wrestling and no-gi, so maybe my issue is just being an outsider and not "getting" unspoken rules. But folkstyle wrestling has similar stuff, with slams and punishing holds, where things that seem to constitute a slam or a punishing hold are allowed without the blink of an eye. I thought that was funny what the one guy said in a video posted in this thread, "The reverse omoplata attacks the elbow so viciously that it breaks the shoulder." LOL.

 

[Normot]

I was actually in a referee training (Around 2009) where I was told by an IJF world level ref saying that technically shoulder attacks are illegal but that he would always treat an ude-gurami/kimura style hold as an elbow attack even if realistically it attacks the shoulder. Things change, I haven't paid attention to Judo tournaments in a long time, but clearly Urantsetsg isn't get DQd.

 

[StanClarker]

When you consider how many times fighters (including legit black belts) have lost the back in MMA, it's pretty easy to disagree with this opinion.

My ground game is very young. And so I find this discussion about taking the back very interesting. It's a tactic we don't specifically go over in the class... though I am relatively new. It's more about simply going for a hold, or another. BJJ with all these technical s is a different side of the newaza coin<{chips}>