Urantsetseg Munkhbat: The Reverse Omoplata Master

[EndlessCritic]

Came across this highlight video this morning of a Mongolian judoka/samboist, Urantsetseg Munkhbat.

Like many judokas, when she is facing a turtling opponent, she aggressively attempts to dig her foot underneath her opponent's arm and attempt a topside triangle. However, when her opponent defends, she unusually transitions immediately into a reverse omoplata, which is a combination I have never seen before.

Go to :15, 3:20, 4:20, 6:55, and 8:00 to see this combination in action.

Truly wonderful stuff. I honestly didn't even know the reverse omoplata was IJF legal.

Credit to @ChickenBrother for pointing this out before me: https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/mongolian-judo-the-real-deal-or-bs.3998357/#post-154199841

 

[Kforcer]

I see that reverse omoplata quite a bit in sport sambo. I don't really recall seeing it in judo much other than with this lady.

Weirdly enough, I was just watching this video about a day before you made this thread. Very interesting stuff.

 

[Kforcer]

I wouldn't have thought it would be legal either, btw, given that it is an obvious shoulder lock. I guess the shoulder lock prohibition is much more of a gray area than I'd been lead to believe though.

 

[Kaffe]

As far as I know, it has always been legal. The ongoing joke tends to be that it attacks the elbow (legal) so hard that your shoulder breaks.

Mark Huizinga made a career out of using it to turn over opponents.

 

[Fedorisbest]

She is something else. Good things

 

[Ryo]

I wouldn't have thought it would be legal either, btw, given that it is an obvious shoulder lock. I guess the shoulder lock prohibition is much more of a gray area than I'd been lead to believe though.

It's always been legal. But the thing that's kindof understood in Judo is that if its used to turn them in over into a pin its pretty much fair game.

 

[Kforcer]

It's always been legal. But the thing that's kindof understood in Judo is that if its used to turn them in over into a pin its pretty much fair game.

What's your take on the whole shoulder submission issue? I had been taught they were illegal and have been told they were illegal for example, if I was rolling at a judo practice. And sources I'd checked had said as much, but now I'm finding other sources saying otherwise, not to mention, examples of shoulder attacks in judo matches that aren't penalized.

Is it a gray area, like punishing holds in folkstyle wrestling?

 

[Ishaq]

Very interesting approach to attacking the turtle although I still don't know if I would favor that over simply trying to take the back.

Also ibjjf rules are really killing the effectiveness and realism of BJJ.

 

[yetanother]

Very interesting approach to attacking the turtle although I still don't know if I would favor that over simply trying to take the back.

Also ibjjf rules are really killing the effectiveness and realism of BJJ.

Compared to judo newaza? I would argue that the have emphasizes on back taking in bjj is very realistic.

 

[Ryo]

Compared to judo newaza? I would argue that the have emphasizes on back taking in bjj is very realistic.

In a real fight I will take control and pinning any day of the week.

 

[Ishaq]

Compared to judo newaza? I would argue that the have emphasizes on back taking in bjj is very realistic.

Judo rules are definitely worse, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize Ibjjf as well.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Sport Sambo utilizes the rolling shoulder lock quite a lot, simply because of the rule set:

No chokes and no points for taking the back, would mean that a simple turtle position is already quite strong defensive position.

Once chokes are in, things change drastically, as we can see in Combat Sambo, where turtle position is very rare, and so is the rolling shoulder lock.

 

[Ishaq]

In a real fight I will take control and pinning any day of the week.

Taking the back is one of the greatest form of control if not the greatest.

Being flattened out on your tummy in MMA is probably the most dangerous position to be in the cage.

 

[Ryo]

Taking the back is one of the greatest form of control if not the greatest.

Being flattened out on your tummy in MMA is probably the most dangerous position to be in the cage.

I am not talking about being in a cage. I'm talking about being in a selfdefence situation if you are attacked. Pinning the guy and controlling him is the the smartest thing. Not a prizefight.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Taking the back is one of the greatest form of control if not the greatest.

When you consider how many times fighters (including legit black belts) have lost the back in MMA, it's pretty easy to disagree with this opinion.

 

[Ishaq]

When you consider how many times fighters (including legit black belts) have lost the back in MMA, it's pretty easy to disagree with this opinion.

Those fighters are attempting to advance position, and attack submission. The gentleman in question is talking about control and pinning. I doubt you could advise of any positions that are lost much less(statistically) than back control?

Based on that, it's pretty easy to dismiss your disagreement.

 

[Ishaq]

I am not talking about being in a cage. I'm talking about being in a selfdefence situation if you are attacked. Pinning the guy and controlling him is the the smartest thing. Not a prizefight.

Being in any situation, backyard, prize fight, cage, hood etc. taking the back and flattening someone out is the most dominant positional control you will find.

If you can use it to put a trained martial artist in significant danger, you can definitely use it against some drunk can on the street.

 

[Ryo]

Being in any situation, backyard, prize fight, cage, hood etc. taking the back and flattening someone out is the most dominant positional control you will find.

If you can use it to put a trained martial artist in significant danger, you can definitely use it against some drunk can on the street.

I disagree. In real life you have to worry about your surroundings and particularly other people. I would prefer knee on belly or a strong side control because of the many options of being able to observe your surroundings and disengage quickly if you have to. Plus the temptation to choke the guy is less, which could land you in legal trouble if you are not 100 percent sure you are justified. Depending on where you live. A good throw to disorient and then knee on belly would be ideal.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I think most would agree EITHER back control + hooks in OR side control with reverse omoplata are dominant positions for street. If we're honest, debating which is better is only academic because you're going to take whatever the guy gives up.

Which brings me to my question for posters itt. Clearly the rulesets for both Judo and BJJ lead to some bad practices for fighting. Pulling guard or turtling = bad for MMA let alone street. But I'm on the fence on reverse omoplata to attack turtle. As shown in @Kaffe's vid above, Huizinga shows it from front facing turtle, a common position in scrambles. Would it make sense to go for this as opposed to say, front headlock to arm in guillotine, front headlock to gator roll/Williams turn or cross-face to far shoulder + grab opposite ankle and take the back? The latter three are my go to moves from this position.

In @EndlessCritic's OP, at 0:15 Munkhbat completes the footsweep for yuko and ends with uke flattened out with a clear chance for hooks in back control BUT she passes and instead postures up for the reverse omoplata. This makes sense under Judo rules where finishing a sub from back is hard to do before being stood back up. But in street if you had someone's back like that, you'd be a fool to pass it up IMO.

 

[Ishaq]

I disagree. In real life you have to worry about your surroundings and particularly other people. I would prefer knee on belly or a strong side control because of the many options of being able to observe your surroundings and disengage quickly if you have to. Plus the temptation to choke the guy is less, which could land you in legal trouble if you are not 100 percent sure you are justified. Depending on where you live. A good throw to disorient and then knee on belly would be ideal.

How does flattening out your opponent provide you less observability than side control or any similar form of top position?

And lol, if you want to talk about legal troubles, I highly doubt throwing your opponent on his head is much better than a gentle form of back control.