• The upgrade to XenForo 2.3.7 has now been completed. Please report any issues to our administrators.

Untrained football player rolls with every BJJ belt, no strikes or slams allowed, does pretty good

Pulling guard wouldn't have worked or would have been highly, highly risky on this dude though if strikes standing, on the ground or slamming was in play. He was also playing their little pure grapplling on a soft mat game as well dont forget.

The counter argument was "this isnt a normal dude". No, but he is a fairly normal meathead. You don't need to be pro level fighter just a strong guy who plays football, to give a lot of these belt ranks more than they can handle if it was a fight is the conclusion.
BJJ is the antithesis of fighting.
The sport itself and the athletes that do it.
Thats why they get upset if you point out it doesnt work in most real fight scenarios.

Its also geared towards unathletic people who have interests in fighting or need help with self defense, but arent going to go in a boxing ring and get blasted in the face.
Thats why they go "You see that nerdy guy. He'd tie you up in a pretzel if you tried to fight him"
Its somewhat a nerds fantasy. The big jock guy whos tough, cant beat up the nerdy guy and his armbar.
In reality, just like we saw above, a real fight scenario, that football player is smashing those guys to pieces. You had your best arsenal and thats what you displayed. How are you going to win an actual fight scenario with a guy like that.
 
Untrained football player rolls with tomato can BJJ black belt, strikes and slams required, still does pretty good:



You do realize that funny and legendary as that fight was, if it was real and on a hard surface, Noguera would have left in a body bag. It was effectivley over after the first 10 seconds which why the throw is Ippon in Judo and wrestling...



BJJ is the antithesis of fighting.
The sport itself and the athletes that do it.
Thats why they get upset if you point out it doesnt work in most real fight scenarios.

Its also geared towards unathletic people who have interests in fighting or need help with self defense, but arent going to go in a boxing ring and get blasted in the face.
Thats why they go "You see that nerdy guy. He'd tie you up in a pretzel if you tried to fight him"
Its somewhat a nerds fantasy. The big jock guy whos tough, cant beat up the nerdy guy and his armbar.
In reality, just like we saw above, a real fight scenario, that football player is smashing those guys to pieces. You had your best arsenal and thats what you displayed. How are you going to win an actual fight scenario with a guy like that.
You are right in lot of ways. For sure against a totally untrained normal guy its going to work  most of the time but against a bigger stronger athletic opponent which is really the measure of a martial art, the BJJer more often than not is getting battered especially if they try to apply idiotic and uncombative ingrained habits like butt scooting or rolling with no concern for getting punched.

In a way the Gracies did pull a fast one the martial arts world;

Bring in the best of the best of BJJ at the time against hobbyist martial artists who dont know even basic grappling to stop a shoot.
Make the mats supersoft so the legit wrestlers who enter lose impact of their most devastating move and then cultivate an image of the unassailable scrawny nerd who prevails over the big jock football player or wrestler.

818SCh7zKuL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

You have to hand it to them though, it was pure marketing genius and the myth largely lives on until these types of examples show a crack in the facade.
 
You do realize that funny and legendary as that fight was, if it was real and on a hard surface happened underwater, both Noguera and Sapp would have drowned. left in a body bag. It was effectively over after the first 10 30 seconds when they both run out of air from all that fighting instead of trying to swim. which why the throw is Ippon in Judo and wrestling...

FTFY

You're adding artificial conditions that aren't there. This wasn't a street fight on asphalt, it was a Pride rules MMA fight in a ring and the competitors fought accordingly. Also that slam would be hansoku-make in Judo and a DQ under folkstyle, freestyle or greco rules. Would it have royally fucked up Big Nog on concrete? Yes.

No style is magic. That's why combat sports have weight classes. Any BJJer, Judoka, boxer, wrestler or kickboxer would have struggled vs. 2002 Bob Sapp. This is the guy who one month later beat Ernesto Hoost twice in K1 and was giving prime Cro Cop all he could handle before left leg cemetery made him start crying. But with Big Nog, the wrestling style double leg is what led to him being power bombed. Likewise Fedor's ura nage attempt on Hong Man Choi against the ropes got him mounted with a Kareem Abdul Jabbar sized hand print across his face, although he eventually got the sub with a juji gatame from guard. Fighting athletic dudes who outweigh you by 100+ pounds is fucking hard.
 
Last edited:
This vid was posted of a big untrained football player dude who lifts, rolling with every BJJ belt rank.

No strikes or slams were allowed which obviously limits him a lot.



He actually gets tapped by the lower belts, but the purple, brown and black belts struggled although it was only for a short time.

- They all severely struggled to get the takedown, leaving opportunities to get punched on the feet.
- On the ground, they were very open to strikes also for the most part.
- Big dude could have picked up and slammed on a hard surface which would be a big risk.
- If big dude literally just watched a basic BJJ defensive video, he would be giving them way more problems.

In a free fight not sure I would bet on any of the BJJ guys, looks like it would be more of a toss up.

Does everyone at the gym have low t?
 
There are some bad dudes that do bjj like any art, but nerdy, fat teens with gyno, who have a blue/purple around their waist thinking they are invincible, takes the biscuit (literally also), despite never being punched in the mouth

It's the same in judo, some guy gets to grips and don't realise that if you don’t kazushi right away, headbutts and uppercuts hurt pretty bad

Be confident in your skills, but be realistic and show enough humility to realise that you are NOT indestructible, no matter what colour your belt is, or how many shiny things you have wrapped round your neck. A punch can change any fight if it lands
 
FTFY

You're adding artificial conditions that aren't there. This wasn't a street fight on asphalt, it was a Pride rules MMA fight in a ring and the competitors fought accordingly. Also that slam would be hansoku-make in Judo and a DQ under folkstyle, freestyle or greco rules. Would it have royally fucked up Big Nog on concrete? Yes.

No style is magic. That's why combat sports have weight classes. Any BJJer, Judoka, boxer, wrestler or kickboxer would have struggled vs. 2002 Bob Sapp. This is the guy who one month later beat Ernesto Hoost twice in K1 and was giving prime Cro Cop all he could handle before left leg cemetery made him start crying. But with Big Nog, the wrestling style double leg is what led to him being power bombed. Likewise Fedor's ura nage attempt on Hong Man Choi against the ropes got him mounted with a Kareem Abdul Jabbar sized hand print across his face, although he eventually got the sub with a juji gatame from guard. Fighting athletic dudes who outweigh you by 100+ pounds is fucking hard.
This. It's hilarious bjj haters who act like the " shit only wiorks in da ring /cage, BUT IN DA STREETZ!! " A large . athletic , mean individual will ALWAYS be a pain in ass to deal with , martial art be damned . This is why knives and guns were invented. BJJ fuckin works 1:1. Been proven in " da streetz" ,and in da ring / cage. NO style is 100 gonna win at all times . The individual makes the art , not vice versa , but some arts are more realistic than others cause pressure testing with full resistance. Bjj, wrestling , boxing , Sambo , kickboxing , shoot fighting , Muay Thai , Judo and a FEW styles of hard style karate , can prepare you for " da streetz ." But really wrestling and boxing are all you really need ( some weapons training maybe , but I personally feel it's overrated ) for da streetz. AND being in fuckin shape helps a lot, being strong , and having endurance , anaerobic and aerobic) and being mean, having a kill switch , helps a ton . I agree that bjj can give false security and takedowns need to be rewarded in tournaments more and trained more , but to act like it's a bullshit art full of katas is disingenuous .Plus " street fighting " . What you bros are talking about is " bro fights or " challenge matches ". Real " street" fights involve weapons and multiple attackers most of time .
 
You're adding artificial conditions that aren't there. This wasn't a street fight on asphalt, it was a Pride rules MMA fight in a ring and the competitors fought accordingly. Also that slam would be hansoku-make in Judo and a DQ under folkstyle, freestyle or greco rules. Would it have royally fucked up Big Nog on concrete? Yes.
I don't think you're really getting it. I hear denial in your words.

Lets put it like this: Getting picked up upside down and slammed with full force upside your head, isn't a demonstration of excellent fighting ability. It essentially means - you're already dead, you lost. Whatever you do after that with your little rolling around grappling game is academic, equivalent to a dead man getting up to shoot you. Yes you can 'celebrate' that you 'won' the fight in that ruleset, but deep down you and the world knows you got smashed. End of.
 
I don't think you're really getting it. I hear denial in your words.

Lets put it like this: Getting picked up upside down and slammed with full force upside your head, isn't a demonstration of excellent fighting ability. It essentially means - you're already dead, you lost. Whatever you do after that with your little rolling around grappling game is academic, equivalent to a dead man getting up to shoot you. Yes you can 'celebrate' that you 'won' the fight in that ruleset, but deep down you and the world knows you got smashed. End of.

Denial of what? The man fucking finished black Hodor using BJJ with strikes and slams in play, what more do you want LMFAO. If that doesn’t scream “my shit works,” I don’t know what does. You make it sound like getting slammed by Sapp is a badge of shame. It was the same with Fedor vs. Hong Man Choi - got pummeled, rag dolled and slammed before eventually getting the sub. Those were the top two heavyweight MMA fighters in the world at the time, testing their games against huge genetic freaks. Sapp and HMC eventually met in K1 with HMC winning a majority decision in a battle of 350 lbs retard strength.

Martial arts and MMA in particular is about imposing your game on your opponent better than he does to you, factoring in the ruleset and/or environment. That means putting your opponent in positions where you are better than he is. If pulling guard enables you to finish your opponent before he finishes you, then it was a good move. But neither Nog nor Fedor pulled guard in those fights, their opponents put them there after failed TD attempts and both finished with subs (or sweep followed by a sub) from there.

So I ask you, who and what style would have finished Sapp and HMC in early/mid 2000's and made it look easy WITHOUT taking big damage, being ragdolled/slammed or pummeled into bolivian on the feet? Because at the time both those dudes were using brute force to beat or go toe to toe with the top HW kickboxers and MMA fighters in the world.
 
Last edited:
Denial of what? The man fucking finished black Hodor using BJJ with strikes and slams in play, what more do you want LMFAO. If that doesn’t scream “my shit works,” I don’t know what does.
No, it screams "dont use BJJ against a huge strong guy in any situation outside of a padded environment, as you may get picked up and slammed into a coma".
So be very clear that outside of a cage, if Nog meets Sapp its Nog who needs to be polite and run if Sapp gets pissed off.

And it wasnt just Sapp who could have done that to Nog, literally dozens of heavyweight wrestlers and Judoka could have tossed him around the ring, maybe not as spectacularly but still ragdolled him.

And lets not even get started on your average hobbyist BJJer who doesnt even train takedowns or defence but rather sits down to start practicing rolling each class.

You see across the wrestling and grappling worlds be it Mongolian wrestling, Turkish, Georgian, Indian, Freestyle, Folkstyle, Greco, Judo, Sambo, Catch etc etc throughout world history the main aim of the game is and has always been to throw your opponent to the mat and get on top. Why is this, and why has this been valued throughout the world so highly?

Only BJJ has promoted this abnormal behaviour of falling on your ass and rolling around between each others legs as the primary training methodology, often not even bothering with the standing phase.
 
No, it screams "dont use BJJ against a huge strong guy in any situation outside of a padded environment, as you may get picked up and slammed into a coma".
So be very clear that outside of a cage, if Nog meets Sapp its Nog who needs to be polite and run if Sapp gets pissed off.

And it wasnt just Sapp who could have done that to Nog, literally dozens of heavyweight wrestlers and Judoka could have tossed him around the ring, maybe not as spectacularly but still ragdolled him.

And lets not even get started on your average hobbyist BJJer who doesnt even train takedowns or defence but rather sits down to start practicing rolling each class.

You see across the wrestling and grappling worlds be it Mongolian wrestling, Turkish, Georgian, Indian, Freestyle, Folkstyle, Greco, Judo, Sambo, Catch etc etc throughout world history the main aim of the game is and has always been to throw your opponent to the mat and get on top. Why is this, and why has this been valued throughout the world so highly?

Only BJJ has promoted this abnormal behaviour of falling on your ass and rolling around between each others legs as the primary training methodology, often not even bothering with the standing phase.

I agree with some of what you're saying and you may recall I'm one of the guys who has shat on guard pulling over the years on this forum. But I invite you to watch Nog vs. Sapp again in its entirety. You will notice that Nog does exactly what you're prescribing - trade strikes on the feet and shoot takedowns with the intent of putting Sapp on bottom. He never pulls guard and only plays guard when Sapp puts him there via stuffing Nog's TD attempts and/or reversing him with brute strength when Nog does take him down and achieve top position. In that fight Nog showed he was a complete MMA fighter (not just a BJJer) who could box, wrestle and play guard vs. an athletic freak with a massive size and strength advantage. In fact if you can watch that fight with anything but awe at Nog's gigantic balls and will to win, I'm not sure why you'd waste your time on an MMA forum.
 
I agree with some of what you're saying
Good.

But I invite you to watch Nog vs. Sapp again in its entirety. You will notice that Nog does exactly what you're prescribing - trade strikes on the feet and shoot takedowns with the intent of putting Sapp on bottom. He never pulls guard and only plays guard when Sapp puts him there via stuffing Nog's TD attempts and/or reversing him with brute strength when Nog does take him down and achieve top position.
Maybe the lesson learned is even trying to shoot takedowns with that weight disparity against a guy that big is highly dangerous (eespecially if on a hard surface), and striking and keeping some range is the far better option.

In fact if you can watch that fight with anything but awe at Nog's gigantic balls and will to win, I'm not sure why you'd waste your time on an MMA forum.
I'm on an MMA forum because I've been watching the sport since before you knew it existed. The conversation isnt about questioning Nogs will, its about how the fact remains that the fight actually supports the same conclusions as the vid in the OP.
 

agreed-agree.gif




Maybe the lesson learned is even trying to shoot takedowns with that weight disparity against a guy that big is highly dangerous (eespecially if on a hard surface), and striking and keeping some range is the far better option.

I think the lesson is there is no right answer when it comes to fighting a guy like 2002 Sapp or circa 2007 HMC. You're going to take damage no matter what. Sapp was a 350 lbs roided physical specimen and 3rd round NFL draft pick with inexplicable 15 minute fight cardio. He was going toe to toe with top K1 fighters and beat Ernesto Hoost twice. I'd also argue that a guy like Sapp would have had even more success in striking without gloves and if elbows had been allowed. K1 rules stipulate no elbows and 10 oz gloves which of course allowed K1 guys to cover up and weather Sapp's initial flurries.


I'm on an MMA forum because I've been watching the sport since before you knew it existed. The conversation isnt about questioning Nogs will, its about how the fact remains that the fight actually supports the same conclusions as the vid in the OP.

I doubt this but am open to being corrected. I've followed mixed rules/MMA since 1991 as a HS wrestler, when I took a 3 month LEO self defense course taught by an LAPD instructor with a purple belt under Rigan Machado. He made us watch Rickson vs. Zulu 1 and 2 on VHS. Dude had also trained with Benny the Jet and was a big advocate of boxing and kickboxing and muay thai in particular. When Royce hit the scene in 1993 at UFC 1, I was on a college Judo team and thought he was doing "Basically Just Judo." I continued to think wrestling and Judo was the way until 2004 when I got submitted many times in the guard of a blue belt Ryan Hall at open mats at Lloyd Irvins.

Fast forward to 2017 and I decided to go to the dark side the week I turned 43. Started training BJJ consistently and 8 years later I'm a BJJ brown who still trains wrestling and Judo. Did a wrestling tourney last year at age 50. Had 5 ammy boxing fights when I was younger and picked up basic Muay Thai from training with MMA guys over the years. I'm still a takedown and top control guy and I will never pull guard, but I understand (as does anyone who understands fighting), that playing guard is part of fighting if your opponent takes you down or reverses you from bottom, even if your main game from there is to wrestle up or stand up, as it is for me.
 
I think the lesson is there is no right answer when it comes to fighting a guy like 2002 Sapp or circa 2007 HMC. You're going to take damage no matter what. Sapp was a 350 lbs roided physical specimen and 3rd round NFL draft pick with inexplicable 15 minute fight cardio. He was going toe to toe with top K1 fighters and beat Ernesto Hoost twice. I'd also argue that a guy like Sapp would have had even more success in striking without gloves and if elbows had been allowed. K1 rules stipulate no elbows and 10 oz gloves which of course allowed K1 guys to cover up and weather Sapp's initial flurries.
Sapp giving K1 guys like Hoost such problems is embarrassing for them really and a blemish. Cro Cop showed how it should be done. Imagine Sapp fighting prime Mike Tyson in boxing I would give him 1-2 minutes max before getting KTFO.

However the threat of getting grappled and slammed in a free fight is always there I just dont think logic dictates you should try to clinch with a guy that big however I agree striking was also not safe but imo safer then trying to grapple with a man that size.


I doubt this but am open to being corrected. I've followed mixed rules/MMA since 1991 as a HS wrestler, when I took a 3 month LEO self defense course taught by an LAPD instructor with a purple belt under Rigan Machado. He made us watch Rickson vs. Zulu 1 and 2 on VHS. Dude had also trained with Benny the Jet and was a big advocate of boxing and kickboxing and muay thai in particular. When Royce hit the scene in 1993 at UFC 1, I was on a college Judo team and thought he was doing "Basically Just Judo." I continued to think wrestling and Judo was the way until 2004 when I got submitted many times in the guard of a blue belt Ryan Hall at open mats at Lloyd Irvins.

Fast forward to 2017 and I decided to go to the dark side the week I turned 43. Started training BJJ consistently and 8 years later I'm a BJJ brown who still trains wrestling and Judo. Did a wrestling tourney last year at age 50. Had 5 ammy boxing fights when I was younger and picked up basic Muay Thai from training with MMA guys over the years. I'm still a takedown and top control guy and I will never pull guard, but I understand (as does anyone who understands fighting), that playing guard is part of fighting if your opponent takes you down or reverses you from bottom, even if your main game from there is to wrestle up or stand up, as it is for me.
Ok fair enough, you must have only discovered sherdog late then I didn't realise you were such an old man. Thats nice you were involved with guys who were close to the sport when it was underground. I have only really been watching since '97, having come on board from seeing Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn in the heyday of WWF attitude era.

I am still only early 40's and frequently get mistaken for mid or even early 30's. I have stuck the course with Wing Chun now and am now pretty damn good and dangerous with it and improving still which is cool as its a shock to people that it can work and be done well at a high level though this is rare, and its not a combat sport.

I have dabbled with expanding on my Judo as a youth with catch or nogi for years, but honestly dont think the wear and tear and potential knee injuries or surgeries are worth it when I see old people which is why I havent taken that step. I recognize its potentially a weakness in the highly unlikely event I get into a self defence situation with an elite MMA guy but I settle for studying videos, which is ironically partly how Helio is supposed to have learned or rather from watching, and if you have a grappling base it can help.
 
Sapp giving K1 guys like Hoost such problems is embarrassing for them really and a blemish. Cro Cop showed how it should be done. Imagine Sapp fighting prime Mike Tyson in boxing I would give him 1-2 minutes max before getting KTFO.

However the threat of getting grappled and slammed in a free fight is always there I just dont think logic dictates you should try to clinch with a guy that big however I agree striking was also not safe but imo safer then trying to grapple with a man that size.

I don't think it's embarrassing, it just highlights that styles make fights. Guys like Cro Cop or Tyson could (or did) do well vs. Sapp because they had one punch or kick finishing power. Cro Cop ended it with a cemetery powered leg kick and Tyson (or prime George Foreman) probably could have done the same with an uppercut or right cross. But many elite fighters don't have 1 punch/kick KO power and they would have struggled vs. Sapp in an openweight bout.

The real issue is Sapp was a glitch in the matrix. >300 lbs and NOT a fatass with dogshit for cardio but instead amazing power, explosion AND cardio made him a unicorn. He was a rare exception to diminishing returns over 230ish pounds for most HWs.


Ok fair enough, you must have only discovered sherdog late then I didn't realise you were such an old man. Thats nice you were involved with guys who were close to the sport when it was underground. I have only really been watching since '97, having come on board from seeing Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn in the heyday of WWF attitude era.

I am still only early 40's and frequently get mistaken for mid or even early 30's. I have stuck the course with Wing Chun now and am now pretty damn good and dangerous with it and improving still which is cool as its a shock to people that it can work and be done well at a high level though this is rare, and its not a combat sport.

I have dabbled with expanding on my Judo as a youth with catch or nogi for years, but honestly dont think the wear and tear and potential knee injuries or surgeries are worth it when I see old people which is why I havent taken that step. I recognize its potentially a weakness in the highly unlikely event I get into a self defence situation with an elite MMA guy but I settle for studying videos, which is ironically partly how Helio is supposed to have learned or rather from watching, and if you have a grappling base it can help.

I had a 2002 account that I lurked with but either got banned or forgot the password (can't remember) and then didn't create another one until 2007. But yeah living in SoCal in the 90's, there were a lot of guys plugged into the MMA scene and a fair amount of wrestlers and BJJ guys cross-trained or at least were aware of each others' games. Rickson and Rigan had gyms in Torrance and I trained at Rigan's a few times and rolled with a guy who had just left Vitor Belfort's new gym after his UFC debut. Also got my ass kicked many times at open mats by Francisco Bueno's coach, who was a HW college wrestling All American. Apparently Bueno was a good fighter but is most famous for getting KTFO by Vovchanchyn.

I know you've posted about Wing Chun over the years and I think that's cool. I trained it for about 6 months (along with escrima) under a Filipino guy I was stationed in the middle east with in 2000. I think the fundamentals are sound and it can be effective for self defense. But I'm always wary of style vs. style debates because I've trained long enough in enough styles to know that any style can be effective in the hands of the right practitioner. The LAPD instructor guy who introduced me to BJJ in 1991 was a high level Aikido guy who preached the importance of strength training and being well rounded. He had trained with Rickson and Helio and had brought in Rickson a bunch of times to train with the local college wrestling team and their coach. The HW wrestler I mentioned above was one of his students (worked as a LEO) and he could wrist lock the shit out of you if you tried to tie up with him. But guys get into trouble when they think their shit doesn't stink and their one style is the right tool for every situation.

Dude I would highly encourage you to stop making excuses and find a Judo dojo. Judo is forgiving with older guys. If you're 40+ with old injuries or whatever, you can just drill the moves and skip randori if you want to, and no one gives a shit - there will be other old guys in the room doing the same. But I can tell you that proper ukemi taught by a proper Judo instructor will save your ass in daily life. Also Judo grip fighting sequences and set ups taught by a proper Judo guy would chain very well with your wing chun.
 
Last edited:
I had a 2002 account that I lurked with but either got banned or forgot the password (can't remember) and then didn't create another one until 2007. But yeah living in SoCal in the 90's, there were a lot of guys plugged into the MMA scene and a fair amount of wrestlers and BJJ guys cross-trained or at least were aware of each others' games. Rickson and Rigan had gyms in Torrance and I trained at Rigan's a few times and rolled with a guy who had just left Vitor Belfort's new gym after his UFC debut. Also got my ass kicked many times at open mats by Francisco Bueno's coach, who was a HW college wrestling All American. Apparently Bueno was a good fighter but is most famous for getting KTFO by Vovchanchyn.
Those early years were something that can never be repeated, not really "the glory days" of MMA in terms of performances in the ring or cage, but simply the glory of mystique of style vs style as people had dreamed of for decades watching martial arts movies, and the excitement of finding out what works in real time, and adding another layer of the puzzle to get to where we are now. Its this adventure of discovery that is largely completed now in terms of MMA that people who only got in post 2010 had missed, as I would say by then people mostly knew what worked in the cage after Machida put Karate at the UFC gold and shut up the TMA haters.

Its a bit strange though you say you trained with some of Rigans guys in the early 90's but its only by 2004 you realised it wasnt " Just Judo" they were doing. I mean surely when they were rolling around in guard which isnt generally worked in Judo that let you know something was up.
Most Judo schools have limited newaza although there is also the suggestion made on this thread that Judoka would have done way better against the football player, not simply in securing the throw or takedown but in the explosiveness on the ground even that characterises the rapid Judo ground game.

I know you've posted about Wing Chun over the years and I think that's cool. I trained it for about 6 months (along with escrima) under a Filipino guy I was stationed in the middle east with in 2000. I think the fundamentals are sound and it can be effective for self defense. But I'm always wary of style vs. style debates because I've trained long enough in enough styles to know that any style can be effective in the hands of the right practitioner. The LAPD instructor guy who introduced me to BJJ in 1991 was a high level Aikido guy who preached the importance of strength training and being well rounded. He had trained with Rickson and Helio and had brought in Rickson a bunch of times to train with the local college wrestling team and their coach. The HW wrestler I mentioned above was one of his students (worked as a LEO) and he could wrist lock the shit out of you if you tried to tie up with him. But guys get into trouble when they think their shit doesn't stink and their one style is the right tool for every situation.

Opinions on here of 'what definitely works and doesnt work' have been proven time and again to not mean shit and keep evolving.
I have been here long enough to not be triggered by the criticism. Sure, Wing Chun has received criticism because the few one dimensional guys who entered were taken down and beaten as expected and because since Bruce Lees time it was widely considered to be "The Ultimate combat system" but opinion has gone the opposite way now. You could say MMA training has replaced that mantle to an extent but in a free fight a top level WC guy is formiddable at close range and if you train grappling as well to cover that weakness I dont see how its not a complete combat system. I am very glad I chose that style all those years ago and it integrates very well with Judo, handfighting and control and knife work with escrima as you mentioned.

Dude I would highly encourage you to stop making excuses and find a Judo dojo. Judo is forgiving with older guys. If you're 40+ with old injuries or whatever, you can just drill the moves and skip randori if you want to, and no one gives a shit - there will be other old guys in the room doing the same. But I can tell you that proper ukemi taught by a proper Judo instructor will save your ass in daily life. Also Judo grip fighting sequences and set ups taught by a proper Judo guy would chain very well with your wing chun.
What deters getting back to Judo and finally working to get that coveted blackbelt which I could do probably in 18 months - 2 years from where I am, is that being thrown and getting up repeatedly doesn't seem as appealing as when I was younger. Randori is part of the style like Chi Sau in Wing Chun so you cant just bypass it.

Then there's the fact that given the evolution of grappling, a Judo blackbelt doesn't mean what it was in the past as you still have difficiency in leg lock knowledge and other areas on the ground. So nogi would probably be the more interesting one to get into but again, my concerns are getting knees regularly twisted the wrong way isn't healthy at all and I think a lot of guys overlook old age and mobility concerns which will be in their reality sooner than they think.

I think the most I would do is an occasional open mat as it would be fun to toss some BJJ guys around and to work on a purely defensive game shutting down submission attempts and returning to the feet from the ground and generally imposing my game on them and reminding them that Judo is the father of BJJ.
 
Its a bit strange though you say you trained with some of Rigans guys in the early 90's but its only by 2004 you realised it wasnt " Just Judo" they were doing. I mean surely when they were rolling around in guard which isnt generally worked in Judo that let you know something was up.
Most Judo schools have limited newaza although there is also the suggestion made on this thread that Judoka would have done way better against the football player, not simply in securing the throw or takedown but in the explosiveness on the ground even that characterises the rapid Judo ground game.

The college Judo team I was on spent probably a third of our practice time on newaza. And half the team including me were former wrestlers. We also drilled armbars, triangles and omoplatas from guard + closed guard and half guard defensive scenarios which is all basic Judo. The 90's era BJJ I saw at Rigan's and what Royce was doing in the early UFCs was very recognizable as Judo newaza, just at a higher level than most Judokas. But again many Judokas have phenomenal ground games and plenty of BJJers have great takedowns. If Ben Askren was the only wrestler you watched, you'd think wrestling was about being plodding and slow as fuck, giving up bad positions and funking out of them to score pins and nearfall.

BJJ became its own thing in the 00's. Leglocks became common and dudes were playing new school gi guards. Most of these I avoid because they don't work for my game but I do like X-guard and SLX a lot and I have to understand the other guards well enough to defend against them which I do regularly.

Whether a Judoka would have done better vs. the football player depends on the player and their game. Maybe a Judoka would have had better TDs (or not) but might have struggled to finish. Taking down a much bigger, stronger guy is always hard because TD defense is intuitive. I can tell you that training BJJ for the last 8 years has improved my wrestling and Judo and I can clown regular Judo guys on the ground unless they're also good wrestlers or cross-train BJJ (which many Judokas do). Even if I elect to play guard, old school smash passes at the level I used to do them are a joke against someone who knows how to play an active guard.


What deters getting back to Judo and finally working to get that coveted blackbelt which I could do probably in 18 months - 2 years from where I am, is that being thrown and getting up repeatedly doesn't seem as appealing as when I was younger. Randori is part of the style like Chi Sau in Wing Chun so you cant just bypass it.

Then there's the fact that given the evolution of grappling, a Judo blackbelt doesn't mean what it was in the past as you still have difficiency in leg lock knowledge and other areas on the ground. So nogi would probably be the more interesting one to get into but again, my concerns are getting knees regularly twisted the wrong way isn't healthy at all and I think a lot of guys overlook old age and mobility concerns which will be in their reality sooner than they think.

I think the most I would do is an occasional open mat as it would be fun to toss some BJJ guys around and to work on a purely defensive game shutting down submission attempts and returning to the feet from the ground and generally imposing my game on them and reminding them that Judo is the father of BJJ.

I would stop worrying about the color cloth around your waist and just think about getting back to something you clearly enjoy talking about. Gyms are businesses and have no desire to fuck up a new student so he leaves and stops paying. There's an injury risk but more often than not, I've seen that with guys who decide to train 2 x day, 6 or 7 days/week when they're fucking 45. If you start with 2 or 3 classes/week of hobbyist BJJ or Judo and avoid ego rolling, it's as safe as any other physical activity. Currently I train grappling 5 x week which is 3 days BJJ and 2 days wrestling. Until earlier this year I also had 1 day of Judo in there but stopped when my son lost interest and chose to focus on wrestling. But I was doing live randori with other browns and blacks and twice/week I wrestle live with HS and college or post college wrestlers and I'm a 170 lbs, 51 year old natty.

Don't be the guy who goes to a BJJ open mat once every 2 years and "wins" rolls with white belts and tomato can blues by taking them down and then stalling or standing up, then going home and deluding yourself that you're a purple equivalent bro. I was that guy for 15 years and that guy was a bitch because he talked but didn't walk the walk. Stop making excuses, check your ego and just go train and get better.
 
Last edited:
The college Judo team I was on spent probably a third of our practice time on newaza. And half the team including me were former wrestlers. We also drilled armbars, triangles and omoplatas from guard + closed guard and half guard defensive scenarios which is all basic Judo. The 90's era BJJ I saw at Rigan's and what Royce was doing in the early UFCs was very recognizable as Judo newaza, just at a higher level than most Judokas.
How common was this though? I dont think most Judo schools spent time training arm triangles and certainly closed guard, I wouldn't call it mainstream modern Judo at all. You seem to have come across a newaza heavy pre-war Judo style at that time. Contrast US Olympic Judoka Christophe Leininger's performance against Ken Shamrock vs Royce's to see the stark difference between the way the styles were applied at this time.

BJJ became its own thing in the 00's. Leglocks became common and dudes were playing new school gi guards.

This is certainly a highly unusual take, I wonder what most BJJ guys would think about that. Also when leglocks became common it no longer remained BJJ but rather merged into a hybrid submission grappling style fusing Catch and Sambo with BJJ.

There's an injury risk but more often than not, I've seen that with guys who decide to train 2 x day, 6 or 7 days/week when they're fucking 45. If you start with 2 or 3 classes/week of hobbyist BJJ or Judo and avoid ego rolling, it's as safe as any other physical activity. Currently I train grappling 5 x week which is 3 days BJJ and 2 days wrestling. Until earlier this year I also had 1 day of Judo in there but stopped when my son lost interest and chose to focus on wrestling. But I was doing live randori with other browns and blacks and twice/week I wrestle live with HS and college or post college wrestlers and I'm a 170 lbs, 51 year old natty.
Thats impressive at that age however you are having a good mix of grappling but are minimizing the injury risk , theres literally threads here of people who gave up BJJ for good in their 50's due to injuries and who knows how they will fare when older.

Don't be the guy who goes to a BJJ open mat once every 2 years and "wins" rolls with white belts and tomato can blues by taking them down and then stalling or standing up, then going home and deluding yourself that you're a purple equivalent bro. I was that guy for 15 years and that guy was a bitch because he talked but didn't walk the walk. Stop making excuses, check your ego and just go train and get better.
I hear you, and its something that has come up as a thought on and off for the past decade and a half. In a way I do regret not taking the plunge in my mid 20's when I first considered it as I could probably be BJJ blackbelt by now but my hatred of the deludedness of BJJers on here over the years thinking it was the be all end all is part of what kept me away.
So I am currently in the same position as you were when you started in your early 40's. Theres only so much time one can train though, the Wing Chun is 4-5 days a week although mainly solo training or can be with the famed wooden dummy and a class every week so I would need to fit it in.

The idea of getting into nogi is definitely exciting though, which is always nice to have new challenges in martial arts.
 
How common was this though? I dont think most Judo schools spent time training arm triangles and certainly closed guard, I wouldn't call it mainstream modern Judo at all. You seem to have come across a newaza heavy pre-war Judo style at that time. Contrast US Olympic Judoka Christophe Leininger's performance against Ken Shamrock vs Royce's to see the stark difference between the way the styles were applied at this time.

This is incorrect. Newaza is part of IJF Judo and the IJF dictates the test curriculum for each belt. Kata gatame (arm triangle) is required for Rokyu yellow belt. Closed guard was also one of the first things you were taught because it denies osaekomi. Closed guard, lock down half guard and turtling were the 3 main ways to stall on the ground long enough for ref to stand you back up.

But you are correct in that many (but not all) competitive Judoka half-ass their newaza. Travis Stevens has talked about this. He believes most elite Judo competitors are BJJ purple equivalent on the mat and IME the average shodan is MAYBE BJJ blue equivalent but with heavy emphasis on pins and smash passing.


This is certainly a highly unusual take, I wonder what most BJJ guys would think about that. Also when leglocks became common it no longer remained BJJ but rather merged into a hybrid submission grappling style fusing Catch and Sambo with BJJ.

By "BJJ," I'm talking about the ruleset and what we were seeing in those competitions. It's understood that leglocks came to BJJ via Sambo/catch/JJJ.


Thats impressive at that age however you are having a good mix of grappling but are minimizing the injury risk , theres literally threads here of people who gave up BJJ for good in their 50's due to injuries and who knows how they will fare when older.

From the career-ending injury threads I've read on here and the ones I've seen IRL, like I said more often than not that's guys that are overtraining/under recovered and/or training or competing with existing injuries. I'm also convinced that habitually putting yourself on bottom and playing guard vs. bigger, stronger guys = no bueno for your long-term neck, spine and joint health. Try to get on top and stay on top.

Being older also means training smarter, not necessarily harder (although 40's is plenty young to train hard). Ego rolling will get you fucked up. Stretch every night, eat well and sleep well. I also do barbell strength training 2 x week with light weights (plenty of unplanned deload weeks if I'm tired) for injury prevention. And if the roided guy who likes neck cranks who outweighs you by 80 pounds calls you out to roll, politely decline and tell him you're sitting out that round.

The idea of getting into nogi is definitely exciting though, which is always nice to have new challenges in martial arts.

Go with this brother. I'll be the first guy to root for you when you start a thread talking about your first nogi class.
 
This is incorrect. Newaza is part of IJF Judo and the IJF dictates the test curriculum for each belt. Kata gatame (arm triangle) is required for Rokyu yellow belt. Closed guard was also one of the first things you were taught because it denies osaekomi. Closed guard, lock down half guard and turtling were the 3 main ways to stall on the ground long enough for ref to stand you back up.

But you are correct in that many (but not all) competitive Judoka half-ass their newaza. Travis Stevens has talked about this. He believes most elite Judo competitors are BJJ purple equivalent on the mat and IME the average shodan is MAYBE BJJ blue equivalent but with heavy emphasis on pins and smash passing.




By "BJJ," I'm talking about the ruleset and what we were seeing in those competitions. It's understood that leglocks came to BJJ via Sambo/catch/JJJ.




From the career-ending injury threads I've read on here and the ones I've seen IRL, like I said more often than not that's guys that are overtraining/under recovered and/or training or competing with existing injuries. I'm also convinced that habitually putting yourself on bottom and playing guard vs. bigger, stronger guys = no bueno for your long-term neck, spine and joint health. Try to get on top and stay on top.

Being older also means training smarter, not necessarily harder (although 40's is plenty young to train hard). Ego rolling will get you fucked up. Stretch every night, eat well and sleep well. I also do barbell strength training 2 x week with light weights (plenty of unplanned deload weeks if I'm tired) for injury prevention. And if the roided guy who likes neck cranks who outweighs you by 80 pounds calls you out to roll, politely decline and tell him you're sitting out that round.



Go with this brother. I'll be the first guy to root for you when you start a thread talking about your first nogi class.

I always roll my eyes when someone keeps bashing bjj and propping up judo + catch while training none of them.


Yes please, start training nogi, or judo, or luta livre, or anything but start actually training.

The little bit of judo one did 30 years ago is not going to mean much if you never drill it or test it.
 
I always roll my eyes when someone keeps bashing bjj and propping up judo + catch while training none of them.


Yes please, start training nogi, or judo, or luta livre, or anything but start actually training.

The little bit of judo one did 30 years ago is not going to mean much if you never drill it or test it.

The funny thing in the catch wrestling community is that the ones doing the trash talking online never stepped on the mats in a catch wrestling gym, maybe a long time ago they did amateur wrestling but that was decades ago and now theyre fat and old. Meanwhile the catchwrestlers who train on a regular basis are almost nonexistant online.
 
Back
Top