Untrained football player rolls with every BJJ belt, no strikes or slams allowed, does pretty good

[TheMaster]

This vid was posted of a big untrained football player dude who lifts, rolling with every BJJ belt rank.

No strikes or slams were allowed which obviously limits him a lot.



He actually gets tapped by the lower belts, but the purple, brown and black belts struggled although it was only for a short time.

- They all severely struggled to get the takedown, leaving opportunities to get punched on the feet.
- On the ground, they were very open to strikes also for the most part.
- Big dude could have picked up and slammed on a hard surface which would be a big risk.
- If big dude literally just watched a basic BJJ defensive video, he would be giving them way more problems.

In a free fight not sure I would bet on any of the BJJ guys, looks like it would be more of a toss up.

 

[rmongler]

What you can see in a lot of them is a lack of a clear idea of what they want to go for in neutral - the dominant grips they want, the 'money maker' they are looking for and can just go to right away and get it done instantly - which is common for many guys training for bjj competitions. This is ironically a major reason why the white belt managed to get it done so quickly - he just went for a leg without worrying about any counter grappling, and of course he was right.

That being said, it'd also be a big misnomer to think of a guy like Austin as 'average' in any way. In fact, you'd have better odds of running into someone else who might also happen to train a combat sport than someone like him. Top percentile not simply in size but athletic talents to go with it, a rarefied intersection, along with the physical literacy of a lifetime of sporting. You could go to your grocery store and pick the first hundred people you see and not find a single one of him.

 

[TheMaster]

What you can see in a lot of them is a lack of a clear idea of what they want to go for in neutral - the dominant grips they want, the 'money maker' they are looking for and can just go to right away and get it done instantly - which is common for many guys training for bjj competitions. This is ironically a major reason why the white belt managed to get it done so quickly - he just went for a leg without worrying about any counter grappling, and of course he was right.

This is interesting, that certain behaviours developed in competition grappling might serve as a hindrance later outside that specialist niche.
One of them I think the purple even dropped to butt scoot, then got up again. Its like "no dude, you want this to go to the ground you are going to have to spend considerably more time training standing grappling".

That being said, it'd also be a big misnomer to think of a guy like Austin as 'average' in any way. In fact, you'd have better odds of running into someone else who might also happen to train a combat sport than someone like him. Top percentile not simply in size but athletic talents to go with it, a rarefied intersection, along with the physical literacy of a lifetime of sporting. You could go to your grocery store and pick the first hundred people you see and not find a single one of him.

I don't think anyone is saying he is just an average guy. He is a fairly typical big muscle head football type though. The issue is that BJJ, especially at the higher levels is supposed to be able to beat these types in a fight, and honestly you cant tell me you would favour any of them against him if was allowed to swing and to slam.

 

[Hotora86]

What you can see in a lot of them is a lack of a clear idea of what they want to go for in neutral - the dominant grips they want, the 'money maker' they are looking for and can just go to right away and get it done instantly - which is common for many guys training for bjj competitions. This is ironically a major reason why the white belt managed to get it done so quickly - he just went for a leg without worrying about any counter grappling, and of course he was right.

Interesting point and I think for the same reason Judo guys would have done BETTER than BJJ guys against him. Most Judo guys have their Tokui Waza (favorite move) which they have drilled to perfection and would definitely immediately land on someone untrained, then straight into basics armbar or lock, which again they have drilled because you have precious little time on the mat in Judo. Even without the subs, a solid throw could incapacitate the "average" opponent.

eg


Of course it's much easier in a gi or at least some sort of thick jacket. Without those it may be much harder for the Judoka to get the TD.

 

[Dana's Moonface]

I'd rather see these guys test their skills away from a soft matt and include strikes maybe with mma gloves. They will see how good their BJJ REALLY is

Too many think a single martial art is super effective. It helps loads,but you are far from invincible when against big lunatics who are used to violent confrontations

 

[Hotora86]

Also, the butt scoot by the purple belt was lame as fuck. xD

 

[rmongler]

I don't think anyone is saying he is just an average guy. He is a fairly typical big muscle head football type though. The issue is that BJJ, especially at the higher levels is supposed to be able to beat these types in a fight, and honestly you cant tell me you would favour any of them against him if was allowed to swing and to slam.

I would reiterate, there's nothing typical about him. Don't put the guys who gave you swirlies in high school on the same pedestal. There's levels to this game.

This is interesting, that certain behaviours developed in competition grappling might serve as a hindrance later outside that specialist niche.
One of them I think the purple even dropped to butt scoot, then got up again. Its like "no dude, you want this to go to the ground you are going to have to spend considerably more time training standing grappling".

Interesting point and I think for the same reason Judo guys would have done BETTER than BJJ guys against him. Most Judo guys have their Tokui Waza (favorite move) which they have drilled to perfection and would definitely immediately land on someone untrained, then straight into basics armbar or lock, which again they have drilled because you have precious little time on the mat in Judo. Even without the subs, a solid throw could incapacitate the "average" opponent.

eg


Of course it's much easier in a gi or at least some sort of thick jacket. Without those it may be much harder for the Judoka to get the TD.

For any given format there are behaviors more or less adaptive for that format - and any given format may be more or less comprable to other formats.
A format like combat wrestling that incentivize takedowns and quick transitions to finishing positions would be more relevant to a scenario like this (or cage fighting, for that matter).

 

[TheMaster]

I would reiterate, there's nothing typical about him.

He may be a relatively higher level football player, but theres nothing particularly unusual about his physique or athletic ability compared to other football players. Like it or not, he represents a typical football player musclehead well as does his athletic performance in this exercise.

For any given format there are behaviors more or less adaptive for that format - and any given format may be more or less comprable to other formats.
A format like combat wrestling that incentivize takedowns and quick transitions to finishing positions would be more relevant to a scenario like this (or cage fighting, for that matter).

Sure. So in other words you are acknowledging that BJJ isn't particularly optimised for fighting anymore, against an untrained bigger stronger athlete.

 

[Hotora86]

This is interesting, that certain behaviours developed in competition grappling might serve as a hindrance later outside that specialist niche.
One of them I think the purple even dropped to butt scoot, then got up again. Its like "no dude, you want this to go to the ground you are going to have to spend considerably more time training standing grappling".

I noticed that too, and was like WTF hahaha!
Your clear task is to take the opponent down and submit him and you, a purple belt, just lay down and butt scoot? xD Pathetic! He should be ashamed of himself and so should his coach.

 

[ChickenBrother]

It's cool to hate on BJJ these days and as a base wrestler and judoka, I hate guard pulling. But facts are facts: 4/5 BJJers took it to the ground and achieved top position or sub on a resisting strength-trained dude who outweighed them by 60 to 100 lbs. That to me is impressive no matter how you do it.

And except for blue who hit a sweet arm drag single (I can only assume he has a wrestling background), 3/5 guys achieved dominant position or sub initiated from a guard pull. Even bitch ass butt scooting purple knew what he was going for and hit a slick DLR backside entry before time ran out.

This wasn't MMA or a street fight, it was grappling and all 5 BJJers showed their game can work on much bigger guys. If anything, this clip makes me want to work on my standing leg lock entries which I've been avoiding for too long.

 

[Hotora86]

And except for blue who hit a sweet arm drag single (I can only assume he has a wrestling background), 3/5 guys achieved dominant position or sub initiated from a guard pull. Even bitch ass butt scooting purple knew what he was going for and hit a slick DLR backside entry before time ran out.

Still a bitch ass butt scooter tho.

We all know what happens to guard pullers in MMA tho... Kron Gracie slam KO not long ago... Toshiomi Kazama slam KO just recently.



If soccer kicks were allowed it would end in a KO for guard pullers as well.

Bottom line, reliance on guard pulling in BJJ is not unlike a reliance on hook kicks in point Karate - it will get you points and possibly a win in the sport but will get you killed almost anywhere else.

 

[shunyata]

It's cool to hate on BJJ these days and as a base wrestler and judoka, I hate guard pulling. But facts are facts: 4/5 BJJers took it to the ground and achieved top position or sub on a resisting strength-trained dude who outweighed them by 60 to 100 lbs. That to me is impressive no matter how you do it.

And except for blue who hit a sweet arm drag single (I can only assume he has a wrestling background), 3/5 guys achieved dominant position or sub initiated from a guard pull. Even bitch ass butt scooting purple knew what he was going for and hit a slick DLR backside entry before time ran out.

This wasn't MMA or a street fight, it was grappling and all 5 BJJers showed their game can work on much bigger guys. If anything, this clip makes me want to work on my standing leg lock entries which I've been avoiding for too long.

I taught one of our blue belt wrestlers who was getting frustrated by bjj guys running away from him in the standup that he can just pull guard and then immediately wrestle up into a double or low single as their legs come in to try to pass. Blew his mind.

 

[TheMaster]

It's cool to hate on BJJ these days and as a base wrestler and judoka, I hate guard pulling. But facts are facts: 4/5 BJJers took it to the ground and achieved top position or sub on a resisting strength-trained dude who outweighed them by 60 to 100 lbs. That to me is impressive no matter how you do it.

And except for blue who hit a sweet arm drag single (I can only assume he has a wrestling background), 3/5 guys achieved dominant position or sub initiated from a guard pull. Even bitch ass butt scooting purple knew what he was going for and hit a slick DLR backside entry before time ran out.

This wasn't MMA or a street fight, it was grappling and all 5 BJJers showed their game can work on much bigger guys. If anything, this clip makes me want to work on my standing leg lock entries which I've been avoiding for too long.

Considering the amount of training and mat time put in to get some of those belts, that was poor and at best mediocre in some cases.
Struggling to get the takedown, then flopping around on their backs fully open to taking some serious GnP or heavy slams isn't high level skill and doesnt inspire confidence. Yes, they mostly got position when the above is excluded but even though it was pure grappling the underlying meta theme of this exercise was clearly "would these dudes be able to beat this guy in a fight". The answer is "probably not".
It is what it is and reflects the direction BJJ has taken for the last two decades so its not exactly surprising either.

Still a bitch ass butt scooter tho.

We all know what happens to guard pullers in MMA tho... Kron Gracie slam KO not long ago... Toshiomi Kazama slam KO just recently.



If soccer kicks were allowed it would end in a KO for guard pullers as well.

Bottom line, reliance on guard pulling in BJJ is not unlike a reliance on hook kicks in point Karate - it will get you points and possibly a win in the sport but will get you killed almost anywhere else.

Yes.
The general vibe I am getting when I see that vid, and I think if any football player who watches it, is this

 

[Hotora86]

Considering the amount of training and mat time put in to get some of those belts, that was poor and at best mediocre in some cases.
Struggling to get the takedown, then flopping around on their backs fully open to taking some serious GnP or heavy slams isn't high level skill and doesnt inspire confidence. Yes, they mostly got position when the above is excluded but even though it was pure grappling the underlying meta theme of this exercise was clearly "would these dudes be able to beat this guy in a fight". The answer is "probably not".
It is what it is and reflects the direction BJJ has taken for the last two decades so its not exactly surprising either.

I agree. The B in moden BJJ stands for Butt-scoot.

Jokes aside, even the coach himself knows they didn't impress. Here's one of his responses to a critic:

@LoganLovesFighting
3 weeks ago
@derschutz4737 trust me we’re all not thrilled about our performances and will honestly be working more wrestling for big guys now. But hey that’s what the experiment is for and everything we shoot is authentic.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Still a bitch ass butt scooter tho.

We all know what happens to guard pullers in MMA tho... Kron Gracie slam KO not long ago... Toshiomi Kazama slam KO just recently.



If soccer kicks were allowed it would end in a KO for guard pullers as well.

Bottom line, reliance on guard pulling in BJJ is not unlike a reliance on hook kicks in point Karate - it will get you points and possibly a win in the sport but will get you killed almost anywhere else.

Considering the amount of training and mat time put in to get some of those belts, that was poor and at best mediocre in some cases.
Struggling to get the takedown, then flopping around on their backs fully open to taking some serious GnP or heavy slams isn't high level skill and doesnt inspire confidence. Yes, they mostly got position when the above is excluded but even though it was pure grappling the underlying meta theme of this exercise was clearly "would these dudes be able to beat this guy in a fight". The answer is "probably not".
It is what it is and reflects the direction BJJ has taken for the last two decades so its not exactly surprising either.

So again I'm the first guy to hate on guard pulling so fuck both of you for making me defend it lol. What grinds my gears is when guys pull guard solely to get it to the ground i.e. pull then lay in closed guard on your back for two minutes thinking about your next move. That's S-tier bitch fu. But OP BJJers didn't do that. 4/5 pulled guard with immediate intent to sweep or sub and 3/4 achieved it (purple bitch was about to when time ran out) on a much larger stronger guy. That's kosher in my book. Every tool has an appropriate time and place.

If the bar for any sport technique is "it has to work on high level pro fighters in an MMA match," then 99.9% of us should commit seppuku ASAP anyway. But let's not pretend the average hobbyist blue wouldn't win a street fight via pulling guard on an average untrained schmo. Obviously pulling guard on Rampage, Bryce Mitchell or Elijah Smith is a bad idea but so is attempting to punch, kick, double leg, gutwrench, gator roll, high crotch, sweep single, sucker drag, sasae, tai otoshi or superman jab them unless you're a comparably trained MMA fighter or equivalent.

 

[TheMaster]

So again I'm the first guy to hate on guard pulling so fuck both of you for making me defend it lol. What grinds my gears is when guys pull guard solely to get it to the ground i.e. pull then lay in closed guard on your back for two minutes thinking about your next move. That's S-tier bitch fu. But OP BJJers didn't do that. 4/5 pulled guard with immediate intent to sweep or sub and 3/4 achieved it (purple bitch was about to when time ran out) on a much larger stronger guy. That's kosher in my book. Every tool has an appropriate time and place.

If the bar for any sport technique is "it has to work on high level pro fighters in an MMA match," then 99.9% of us should commit seppuku ASAP anyway. But let's not pretend the average hobbyist blue wouldn't win a street fight via pulling guard on an average untrained schmo. Obviously pulling guard on Rampage, Bryce Mitchell or Elijah Smith is a bad idea but so is attempting to punch, kick, double leg, gutwrench, gator roll, high crotch, sweep single, sucker drag, sasae, tai otoshi or superman jab them unless you're a comparably trained MMA fighter or equivalent.

Pulling guard wouldn't have worked or would have been highly, highly risky on this dude though if strikes standing, on the ground or slamming was in play. He was also playing their little pure grapplling on a soft mat game as well dont forget.

The counter argument was "this isnt a normal dude". No, but he is a fairly normal meathead. You don't need to be pro level fighter just a strong guy who plays football, to give a lot of these belt ranks more than they can handle if it was a fight is the conclusion.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Pulling guard wouldn't have worked or would have been highly, highly risky on this dude though if strikes standing, on the ground or slamming was in play. He was also playing their little pure grapplling on a soft mat game as well dont forget.

The counter argument was "this isnt a normal dude". No, but he is a fairly normal meathead. You don't need to be pro level fighter just a strong guy who plays football, to give a lot of these belt ranks more than they can handle if it was a fight is the conclusion.

You know what else is useless? Being reliant on touchdowns to win in football. That accomplishes absolutely nothing in an MMA fight let alone a real dust up on the street. And in a waterborne survival situation, attempting to punt, pass or rush with the ball will get you drowned when you should be treading water or floating. To say nothing of the fact that you'd be throwing away the only flotation device you're likely to have on your person when it's unclear how long you might have to remain afloat in the ocean.

 

[rmongler]

He may be a relatively higher level football player, but theres nothing particularly unusual about his physique or athletic ability compared to other football players. Like it or not, he represents a typical football player musclehead well as does his athletic performance in this exercise.

There's plenty of things unusual about him. Kids who were country champs look like gods compared to the masses of everyone else and then are just second string bench warmers at the collegiate level. You're just wrong about this bro. I may not be a fan of beej stans but people who use false premises to try and criticise it are the same kind of dog. You can do better.

Sure. So in other words you are acknowledging that BJJ isn't particularly optimised for fighting anymore, against an untrained bigger stronger athlete.

Who do you think you are arguing with? There are more forms of grappling under heaven and earth, Horatio, then are dreampt of by Rorion.

But facts are facts: 4/5 BJJers took it to the ground and achieved top position or sub on a resisting strength-trained dude who outweighed them by 60 to 100 lbs. That to me is impressive no matter how you do it.

Yes. None of these guys are doing training exactly optimized for this use-case, but they still got dominant positions anyways. It just goes to show what a huge yawning gulf there is between even incidental training experience and not having any live combat sport experience at all.

 

[DoctorTaco]

That's the point though. Football skills don't exactly equate to fight skills but he did pretty well against trained fighters as an untrained strong guy. I think people aren't giving enough credit to football though. Those sprints and tackles they do are not the worst exercises out there for a fight. Better than tennis or baseball imo.

Hand fighting too. I’ve trained a few college players, a pro baller in Canada, and an nfl center. Hand speed and hand fighting was a big part of our work

 

[ChickenBrother]

Untrained football player rolls with tomato can BJJ black belt, strikes and slams required, still does pretty good: