Undefeated Poll

[MCS]

Not only was the elbow illegal, but it was a fluke that it even landed. It was basically a perfect storm of bad luck and circumstance for Fedor, I can only imagine how pissed he was after that. It's no wonder we saw the brutal bludgeoning we saw when they rematched in Pride lol

Spoiler

yeah, TK threw a punch, missed and his damn elbow cut Fedor open.

No prolonged stand-up in the rematch, but some vicious GnP beatdown. TK was tough, the rematch lasted a good while.

 

[MMA]

Fedor's fight was ruled a loss because it was tournament format and there couldn't be no contests. The cut made it impossible for him to continue so he was given a loss

Good point about Hamill already being close to finished, it's not like Jones needed the illegal strikes to win the fight. He still threw them though, and considering so much of Jones' game is based on exploiting and even breaking the rules you almost have to expect him to lose a few fights via DQ

Sorry I insta-edited but you caught me, at first I mistakenly remembered it as a headbutt.

The elbow actually makes it even worse for Fedor. TK threw a punch, not an elbow. Fedor ducked into his elbow. That's Fedor's mistake, but TK didn't actually throw anything illegal. Fedor fucked up and got cut and couldn't continue.

I see that argument, I see yours too; I think they were both undefeated personally but there's certainly arguments for all 4

 

[MCS]

The elbow actually makes it even worse for Fedor. TK threw a punch, not an elbow. Fedor ducked into his elbow. That's Fedor's mistake, but TK didn't actually throw anything illegal. Fedor fucked up and got cut and couldn't continue.

true, TK's intent was to throw a punch, so him hitting Fedor accidentally with an elbow makes it tricky, since intent is where the root of problems are. I'd call it just bad luck all-around, as well.

 

[faustian]

Sorry I insta-edited but you caught me, at first I mistakenly remembered it as a headbutt.

The elbow actually makes it even worse for Fedor. TK threw a punch, not an elbow. Fedor ducked into his elbow. That's Fedor's mistake, but TK didn't actually throw anything illegal. Fedor fucked up and got cut and couldn't continue.

I see that argument, I see yours too; I think they were both undefeated personally but there's certainly arguments for all 4

Even if TK didn't intend to hit him with the elbow it would've been ruled a NC if it wasn't a tournament (see Nog/Fedor 2). Regardless of whether it's a NC or DQ, it still isn't a valid loss in my book

 

[Jopo]

Both undefeated.

 

[MMA]

Even if TK didn't intend to hit him with the elbow it would've been ruled a NC if it wasn't a tournament (see Nog/Fedor 2). Regardless of whether it's a NC or DQ, it still isn't a valid loss in my book

My book either.


But in your initial post, you didn't seem to acknowledge that there was any good argument for Fedor's loss being legit/Jones's loss shouldn't count.

That's all I was trying to do, is show you how someone could reasonably vote the opposite from what you did.

I voted both undefeated, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.


Let me make an analogy here: knees to the head of a grounded opponent are illegal in the UFC, right? If I dive for a takedown, and one of my knees touches the ground right before I accidentally dive my head into your knee KOing myself, should that be a NC or should I lose?

You see how that's similar? If I dive my head into your knee, there's kind of the thought like I deserve to lose because I KO'd myself, you didn't do anything illegal so it shouldn't be a NC. There's the same thought with Fedor. TK threw a legal strike, Fedor fucked up, rammed his face into TK's elbow, and lost by cut. Same sort of conundrum. In both cases, the contact between head and body part was illegal, but don't the rules say "elbow strikes are illegal" and "knees to grounded opponents' heads are illegal?" In neither case was an illegal strike actually thrown. Someone just made the fuck up of diving their head into his opponent's bones.

 

[faustian]

My book either.


But in your initial post, you didn't seem to acknowledge that there was any good argument for Fedor's loss being legit/Jones's loss shouldn't count.

That's all I was trying to do, is show you how someone could reasonably vote the opposite from what you did.

I voted both undefeated, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

I still think there's a huge difference between being the victim of an illegal strike and being the one throwing the illegal strikes

 

[imagesmb]

I think most can agree that neither had been bested by their opponents. Once you get past that it's just an argument about what the definition of undefeated is.

On a side note: The majority of Sherdog, at the time, was pro Jones at the time of the Hamill fight. I remember most people either calling for a NC or saying the fight should have been stopped before the 12-6 elbows were thrown.

 

[MMA]

I still think there's a huge difference between being the victim of an illegal strike and being the one throwing the illegal strikes

Read the edit. damn it you're fast. I need to wait to hit submit more lol

 

[Super Beast]

JBJ lost to Gus, that 1L on his record is just.

 

[BrokenCage]

Neither are (or were) undefeated.

The only caveat would be that Jones was defeated by his own actions, and Fedor was defeated by a freak set of circumstances. Regardless, both lost their respective fights within the rules that they agreed to before fighting. I don't see why some fans want to revise history and create loopholes for a fighter's losses. I didn't stop being a fan of Fedor after Werdum choked him out or even when Henderson KO'd him. It's ok for a fighter to lose, it's going to happen to all of them eventually.

 

[MMA]

JBJ lost to Gus, that 1L on his record is just.

People argue the same thing about Arona, and the argument's just as wrong.

 

[Mr. Hammer]

DQ Loss =/= Being Defeated

Especially when prior to the stoppage you were beating your opponent from pillar to post.

 

[faustian]

Let me make an analogy here: knees to the head of a grounded opponent are illegal in the UFC, right? If I dive for a takedown, and one of my knees touches the ground right before I accidentally dive my head into your knee KOing myself, should that be a NC or should I lose?

You see how that's similar? If I dive my head into your knee, there's kind of the thought like I deserve to lose because I KO'd myself, you didn't do anything illegal so it shouldn't be a NC. There's the same thought with Fedor. TK threw a legal strike, Fedor fucked up, rammed his face into TK's elbow, and lost by cut. Same sort of conundrum. In both cases, the contact between head and body part was illegal, but don't the rules say "elbow strikes are illegal" and "knees to grounded opponents' heads are illegal?" In neither case was an illegal strike actually thrown. Someone just made the fuck up of diving their head into his opponent's bones.

That's a poor analogy. Fedor was using head movement to avoid a punch and TK's elbow grazed him, if anything you could make the argument that TK did it intentionally based on the way the punch/elbow was thrown. Now I don't think it was intentional, but I don't think you can blame Fedor for how it happened

 

[dc007]

Both undefeated.

 

[SherdogGoat]

Both undefeated

 

[Non]

Fedor has a loss on a technicality that was out of his control. It should be a no contest.

Jones used an illegal attack and was disqualified for it. That's a legitimate loss.

 

[MMA]

That's a poor analogy. Fedor was using head movement to avoid a punch and TK's elbow grazed him, if anything you could make the argument that TK did it intentionally based on the way the punch/elbow was thrown. Now I don't think it was intentional, but I don't think you can blame Fedor for how it happened

OK then maybe a better analogy is turning your head as a punch is coming so it lands on the back of your head. Fist hits back of head, but it's not an illegal strike because you moved your head to make it land illegally. Same thing here.

Again, I'm not trying to convince you of this, I don't even believe it. I honestly don't know why I keep this going, I just can't help it. If you want to stop, I'll stop. If you're having fun with the tit for tat exercise like I am, we can keep going.

 

[ItsyBitsySilva]

I am disappoint sherdog