Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by Spearfish CA, Jan 3, 2015.
Is Jones undefeated?
Was Fedor, before he lost to Werdum?
DC is lol
Fedor actually was defeated by a cut with the combination of the RINGS tournament rules. Thankfully he avenged that loss in superb fashion.
Jones is undefeated, but it will always count as a loss because he fucked up. Big difference.
DC is purely undefeated.
Jones has a loss on his record because of illegal strikes he landed vs Hamill
Fedor had a loss on his record because of an illegal strike Kohsaka landed on him
Not too hard to see the obvious difference here
both undefeated and if you're going the "loss is a loss" route be consistent.
I'm not sure what there is to discuss here; both have that loss on their record. Whether they should have had the losses, or whether the losses actually meant anything, that the losses happened is an objective, historical fact.
I guess you can argue about what it means to be "undefeated," i.e., can you have a loss in which you weren't "defeated?" But if you're the type that is inclined to engage in those kind of mental gymnastics, you care way, way too much about pretty meaningless win/loss records.
both the greatest in their division and both undefeated in my book
I consider Jones undefeated, as well as Fedor before the Werdum fight.
Jones got beat by the rule book, his own fault
And Fedor loss was different
I see that reasoning, I also see the reasoning for the other way.
Jones landed illegal strikes on a guy who was already out. That last 1 or maybe 2 elbows was not what put Hamil away. They were of no consequence. He already had the fight won.
On the other hand, Fedor's bout was a result of an accidental elbow that is at least as much Fedor's fault as it was TK's. TK threw a legal strike. Fedor dodged it but made the mistake of hitting his head on the elbow. TK made it out of the clash, Fedor didn't.
So there's arguments for looking at it every way. The other 2 I don't think I need to spell the arguments out.
Its just the way the cookie crumples sometimes. Both fighter have one lost; That is what makes streaks like Anderson's so impressive is that dumb shit didn't happen.
Both undefeated, though Fedor in more 'obvious' way, if one wants to dwell on it.
As in, it was Jones who broke the rules, as sketchy as it might have been.
Fedor on the other hand was victim of the foul.
Fedor's fight was ruled a loss because it was tournament format and there couldn't be no contests. The cut made it impossible for him to continue so he was given a loss
Good point about Hamill already being close to finished, it's not like Jones needed the illegal strikes to win the fight. He still threw them though, and considering so much of Jones' game is based on exploiting and even breaking the rules you almost have to expect him to lose a few fights via DQ
The two fights have differences.
In one, the undefeated guy delivered an illegal blow, in the other the undefeated guy received an illegal blow.
In one, the undefeated guy almost certainly would have won if the illegal strike never happened, in the other, he probably would have, although it's fairly speculative.
Still, the 'both undefeated' choice is probably the best of the 4 simplifications.
Exactly this. Jones threw the illegal strike that ended the fight. Fedor was hit by an illegal strike and since it was a tournament with no alternate they kind of were forced to have TK move on.
most people in attendance and both participants did not even know the rule existed at the time, so how does that narrative even apply?
Neither should have a loss on their record.
Elbows were illegal in Rings, TK cut Fedor with a standing elbow and the fight was called. It was a tournament, so it had to go on. TK won via fouling.
Hamill dislocated his shoulder before Jones fouled, the ref didn't notice/hear Hamill and the brutality went on with Hamill being a mess after the ref finally called it. Jones did foul, though, so there's a difference, but ultimately both Fedor's and Jones' first loss came down to a bad ref call.
And neither reflect on their skill or the outcome of those match-ups at all, as both were easy fights for both Fedor & Jones.
Not only was the elbow illegal, but it was a fluke that it even landed. It was basically a perfect storm of bad luck and circumstance for Fedor, I can only imagine how pissed he was after that. It's no wonder we saw the brutal bludgeoning we saw when they rematched in Pride lol
I still consider(ed) them undefeated.
Both Jones and pre-Werdum Fedor had 1 loss and were undefeated.
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