Social Uncomfortable Conversations: "The right kind of refugee"

[SL1200]

I see a lot of blablabla.. Which of you is from Europe? We've had so many problems with "refugees" from Africa and the ME that our tolerance has sunk to below zero. Young men who contribute nothing but troubles and groups of people who refuse to integrate. So much so that our society is changing for the worse. In essence we are very tolerant and welcoming. That is our strength but also our weakness. The reason we're so welcoming to Ukrainians is that they are women and children who need help. Not a group of useless young men that are only here to leech of our social security and free money. Fuck off with the race card.

 

[Islam Imamate]

So is it xenophobic that Muslims only care about Palestine, and don't pay any attention to Armenians currently being ethnically cleansed from their homes by Turkiye and Azerbaijan? Or is it that people naturally prioritise their in-group. For Mulsims it is other Muslims. For Christians, it is other Christians.

If a Muslim reporter was on international TV and said something that strongly implied that the suffering of Muslims matters more by explicitly contrasting them with non-Muslim refugees based on their religion then yes that would obviously come off as bigoted. Idk why its so had for you guys to understand this very simple point.

 

[Rand M Arthur]

While I agree with you to a point, I don't think it's as simple as showing preference to people of a like religion.

Are Western countries still characterized as Christian in values and customs? . This is a genuine question - these countries were definitely founded on Christian principles, but I'm not sure that still stands today in light of immigration and a growing apathy towards religion in general).

We also have examples of Christians being persecuted in certain African and Asian countries, I.e Pakistan, Nigeria, Kenya, Egypt, Turkiy etc. To the best of my knowledge, these groups still face enormous hurdles in being granted refugees status.

I personally think that the biggest determinant of why Ukrainians are being viewed more sympathetically is perceived cultural compatibility and race. They "look and act" like us, and as others have mentioned, there is a natural propensity to be more empathetic to people who share common traits.

What I think alot of people don't want to accept is that the magnitude or severity of the situation that results in displaced people doesn't matter nearly as much as culture and race do.

A bombed school is a tragedy whether you are in Ukraine, Syria or Afghanistan. Our willingness to help however drastically differs.

I don't know why so many people are so vehement in denying the racial component. Discriminating based on race is not an indictment of western countries, it is human nature and something virtually all of us do. Heck, even where I'm from, people discriminate based on skin color within the same ethnic group (dark skin is less desirable than lighter completions).

Most of Europe rolled out the carpet for Christians from the Middle East and Africa. They (along with Jews, Druze, and LGBT) were given first priority through refugee programs. But, any government has the first duty to protect the land and citizens. And, if you don't control the borders, you don't know who is here, and thus don't control your land. This is why there was such a virulent reaction to the migration crisis.

The reason you are seeing such resistance is because for several decades the idea of white unity has been played as the domain of racists. Whilst other ethnicities are allowed to have ethnic pride. For the cult of intersectionality, this is a form pf punching up. Well this micky-mouse ideology doesn't even have a answer where an increasingly large section of mixed-race people (like myself) fit on this pyramid of hierarchy. And now white Europeans are beeing clearly victimized, they are looking to gaslight the people who show compassion. You can see similar with the Nick Sandman case. Mainstream media festered multiple known lies to gaslight people into making a bunch of highschool kids the devil, whilst a known fraudster who is on video harrasing them is turned into a victim.

People may be less personally theistic, although there is a reason why chaplains in hospitals still keep busy. There are no atheists in the foxhole. But, the cultural hegemon is definitely Christian. From which days are considered weekend, to justice laws, to pornographic censorship, to the languages we speak. It was all influenced by Christian theology. I do find it wierd how people have an obsession with removing any trace of Christendom from Christian countries, yet wouldn't bat an eyelid to call out Islamophobia (or the Hindu/Buddist) if that was tried in other places. Europe's very identity had been tied to Christianity for nearly two thousand years.

 

[Rand M Arthur]

If a Muslim reporter was on international TV and said something that strongly implied that the suffering of Muslims matters more by explicitly contrasting them with non-Muslim refugees based on their religion then yes that would obviously come off as bigoted. Idk why its so had for you guys to understand this very simple point.

I take it you've never seen Memri TV?

 

[Bald1]

I see a lot of blablabla.. Which of you is from Europe? We've had so many problems with "refugees" from Africa and the ME that our tolerance has sunk to below zero. Young men who contribute nothing but troubles and groups of people who refuse to integrate. So much so that our society is changing for the worse. In essence we are very tolerant and welcoming. That is our strength but also our weakness. The reason we're so welcoming to Ukrainians is that they are women and children who need help. Not a group of useless young men that are only here to leech of our social security and free money. Fuck off with the race card.

I remember arguing with guys from Sweden and Germany in 2016 when reports came out that crime was down. Lol. I see some people still believe that when the population with the highest propensity to commit crimes (men between 6 - 40) increases crime can actually decrease. Like the tooth fairy or Santa Claus, this is just make-believe. And between Germany and Sweden over 1 000 000 military aged men have been admitted since 2016. So, yeah, ridiculous.

 

[SL1200]

I remember arguing with guys from Sweden and Germany in 2016 when reports came out that crime was down. Lol. I see some people still believe that when the population with the highest propensity to commit crimes (men between 6 - 40) increases crime can actually decrease. Like the tooth fairy or Santa Claus, this is just make-believe. And between Germany and Sweden over 1 000 000 military aged men have been admitted since 2016. So, yeah, ridiculous.

And now Sweden has the highest crime rate in Europe. And that's not because Sven and Arne are becoming more criminal. There's nothing wrong with migration per se but the problem is that we've taken in massive amounts of thugs. Stockholm has no-go areas.... let that sink in. Everywhere in Europe there are complete cities that are taken over by criminal gangs. Amsterdam used to be called "the gay capital of the world". Think of that what you will but nowadays it's not even safe to walk hand in hand with your boyfriend. Jewish schools have full time police security with mobile police posts.

And then somehow the MSM argues that right wing extremism is the problem. It's the fucking result of seeing your country go to shit.

 

[MicroBrew]

Wow, I'm EU citizen living and doing business in EU, I was born in Moscow, Soviet Union.
I had to climb from bottom like Harlem is in U.S while I then had nothing and you in your cubicle are calling me as bot.
Congratulations and I regret that you did not had experienced discrimination I had in country where I was citizen not immigrant........ just cos address, I wish to all lads here get in real life such experience, I might explain further. Yeah, about life white guy might have in EU.
Not cos passport, language or skin, just address in city XX. God save you my boy from this.

I said you might be a bot because your earlier reply had no relevance to the post of mine you quoted; your post just seemed like a jumble of thoughts.

If English is not your 1st language I understand but you seemed to be fluent enough in English to communicate so I don't understand why you brought up jobs and being a programmer.

 

[SanchoMF]

And now Sweden has the highest crime rate in Europe. And that's not because Sven and Arne are becoming more criminal. There's nothing wrong with migration per se but the problem is that we've taken in massive amounts of thugs. Stockholm has no-go areas.... let that sink in. Everywhere in Europe there are complete cities that are taken over by criminal gangs. Amsterdam used to be called "the gay capital of the world". Think of that what you will but nowadays it's not even safe to walk hand in hand with your boyfriend. Jewish schools have full time police security with mobile police posts.

And then somehow the MSM argues that right wing extremism is the problem. It's the fucking result of seeing your country go to shit.

You'll love Paris ! <45>

 

[Bald1]

And now Sweden has the highest crime rate in Europe. And that's not because Sven and Arne are becoming more criminal. There's nothing wrong with migration per se but the problem is that we've taken in massive amounts of thugs. Stockholm has no-go areas.... let that sink in. Everywhere in Europe there are complete cities that are taken over by criminal gangs. Amsterdam used to be called "the gay capital of the world". Think of that what you will but nowadays it's not even safe to walk hand in hand with your boyfriend. Jewish schools have full time police security with mobile police posts.

And then somehow the MSM argues that right wing extremism is the problem. It's the fucking result of seeing your country go to shit.

One of the guys I used to argue with was from Malmo. A few years later he got a job in social services, lost his shit because of the newcomers and got banned. I've talked to enough people, face to face, from the EU side of the Hungarian fence to know the western media is lying when it comes to this topic. Seems more and more people are willing to talk about the situation openly in western and northern Europe, so that's something at least.

 

[Andy Capp]

I want to preface this by saying that the situation in the Ukraine is tragic, and civilians looking to leave the country should be welcomed by others who have the capacity to take them in.

With that being said, the Ukrainian crisis has highlighted the disparate response by the western world in how it perceives and treats refugees. Some people have been very blunt in their assessment of the situation

"These are not refugees from Syria, these are from Ukraine, they are Christians, they are white, they look very similar to us."

“It’s really emotional for me because I see European people with blue eyes and blonde hair being killed…”

There are dozens of examples of this, but you get my point - the humanitarian response to the Ukrainian crisis has been overwhelming, with millions of dollars being donated to help provide aide, countries opening their borders to welcome displaced people. Canada is even offering immediate work permits and access to social services, while some of our universities are eliminating tuition for foreign students from the Ukraine.

I am not principally opposed to any of these things - I think that when you have the ability to help, you should help. I am more interested in hearing your thoughts as to why there is a double standard - the notion of a "good refugee" and a "bad refugee". Is it something as simple as race, or are their dimensions of the Ukrainian conflict that make the world more sympathetic to their displacement?

Personally, I think there are three primary drivers:
1) The most obvious one being race and to a lesser degree, religion. Given that Ukrainian's "look like us" and their culture and values are seemingly more compatible and relatable to the average Westerner.
2) Ukraine enjoyed a (relative) degree of affluence and development relative to other countries prone to conflict, and their displacement is seen as something that nobody would have expected. If it could happen there, it could happen here.
3) There are broader global implications associated with the conflict and Russia being seen as a growing aggressor. As a result, we want to support Ukraine and its people, in a demonstration to show countries like Russia and China that the world will not tolerate bullies.

I do however find it somewhat perverse that we are able to generate hundreds of millions of dollars to support Ukraine and it's people, but the world balks at providing meaningful aid to war torn countries where children are literally starving to death. When Syrian refugees were fleeing the Putin backed Assad regime, they were turned away at gun point or faced razor wire fences. There are numerous stories of families who walked hundreds of kilometers to flee gang violence in Central America, only to be turned away by American border agents.

This is a topic that hits closer to home, as I once worked on a project in Yemen (Kharaz refugee camp) and witnessed saw what the ravages of civil war could do to displaced people.

If we have room for one, but not the other, what should the guiding criteria be? What makes a good refugee, and why do we have sympathy for some, but not all?

For the record, this isn't some sort of race baiting topic, I am genuinely curious - every country should have the right decide who they let in, using whatever criteria they want.

I understand where you are coming from, but sadly, this is far too nuanced and detailed an issue to have a decent conversation about it in the WR.

Turkey was and still is being paid to take on refugees. I think that should be stayed far more than it is

while Egypt took almost no one , despite having been a country with Syria.

I think the fixation on color is in reaction to liberals saying they don’t want Ukrainians due to their whiteness. I’ve seen that posted multiple times. Taking in people that you share a common culture with and genetics makes sense. I think denying them due to their race despite their similarities is the overlooked hot take here.

former Soviet republics? I don’t know. Tbh why are too far but it’d be interesting to see where the Kazakhstan refugees would have gone if the unrest was worse. China is close but it’s the mountainous area. The other Stans are small and unable to take care of anyone. It wouldn’t be Russia Iran can’t help anyone in its current state and would probably not be ok with Sunni

This post is full of shit, man. I mean, c'mon.

 

[ElKarlo]

There is no point in US history then where any wave of refugees would have been admitted.

The Italians, the Irish, the Russians, the jews, etc were all seen as 'dirty' and not a 'cultural fit' and met great hostility and ghettoization which only changed over time once given generations to assimilate and blend in.

And as soon as one group got in, they mostly joined society on condemning the next one trying to get in.


People live in a fallacy today thinking this is 'current phenomena only because THESE people are different' as this has been the norm at each wave.

But you will still have people read this and say 'but...but... this time it is different' while ignoring that was said each and every time prior.

A lot of groups caused all kinds of social tensions and problems. You’re acting like it was all ok. It wasn’t

 

[Islam Imamate]

I take it you've never seen Memri TV?

Huh? What's that have to do with my point? If you can find a clip like that then yeah I'll condemn it. Meanwhile you guys are happy to make excuses for the racist comments and actions made in the wake of the Ukraine crisis. You even have some dope ITT clutching his pearls at the mere suggestion there might be some racism behind the segregating of Africans in the Ukraine evacuation while at the same time saying its racist for Sweden to say they won't take Ukrainian refugees despite no reference to race in those statements.

Just assbackwards standards here but don't expect much more from the WR at this point.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Also its a bit odd to see people thumbing their nose at Syrian migrants for not "staying and fighting"

Who exactly should they have fought for? The Assad regime? Al Nusra? ISIS? The Shiite militias, made of young men who stayed and fought as well as volunteers from Iran, did stay and fight and they're targeted for assassination by the US.

 

[tastaylvr]

I said you might be a bot because your earlier reply had no relevance to the post of mine you quoted; your post just seemed like a jumble of thoughts.

If English is not your 1st language I understand but you seemed to be fluent enough in English to communicate so I don't understand why you brought up jobs and being a programmer.

At least half the posts in this section are bots imo

So many posts just make zero sense

 

[Rand M Arthur]

Huh? What's that have to do with my point? If you can find a clip like that then yeah I'll condemn it. Meanwhile you guys are happy to make excuses for the racist comments and actions made in the wake of the Ukraine crisis. You even have some dope ITT clutching his pearls at the mere suggestion there might be some racism behind the segregating of Africans in the Ukraine evacuation while at the same time saying its racist for Sweden to say they won't take Ukrainian refugees despite no reference to race in those statements.

Just assbackwards standards here but don't expect much more from the WR at this point.

I've never mentioned Swedenm. If they don't want to let women and children in, it's a bad look. But ultimately, their land and their rules. The African women and children have mostly been let through now. Is it hard to imagine that they didn't have all their papers and thus were last in line for people who had officially been offered asylym? I know they are mostly through since you can see them in background of news reports from the Polish border camps. The men are shit out of luck, it sucks for them. But all the Ukrainian men have to staying to fight, so it is hardly racism when the mostly white natives are being turned back at the border too.

 

[Rand M Arthur]

Also its a bit odd to see people thumbing their nose at Syrian migrants for not "staying and fighting"

Who exactly should they have fought for? The Assad regime? Al Nusra? ISIS? The Shiite militias, made of young men who stayed and fought as well as volunteers from Iran, did stay and fight and they're targeted for assassination by the US.

Maybe they could form a militia that wasn't based of sunni supremacism and xenophobia of other faiths? I'll give you the shiite militias. They were relatively tame outside of Iraq.

 

[NoSmilez]

Do Ukrainians want to repatriate?

 

[Islam Imamate]

I've never mentioned Sweden. If they don't want to let women and children in, it's a bad look. But ultimately, their land and their rules. The African women and children have mostly been let through now. Is it hard to imagine that they didn't have all their papers and thus were last in line for people who had officially been offered asylym? I know they are mostly through since you can see them in background of news reports from the Polish border camps. The men are shit out of luck, it sucks for them. But all the Ukrainian men have to staying to fight, so it is hardly racism when the mostly white natives are being turned back at the border too.

I know and I didn't say otherwise, I was talking about @ElKarlo who I was originally conversing with.

What you're saying in regards to the Africans makes sense, others were straight up saying that it makes sense to single them out for their skin color.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Maybe they could form a militia that wasn't based of sunni supremacism and xenophobia of other faiths? I'll give you the shiite militias. They were relatively tame outside of Iraq.

All the groups that were belligerents in that war were largely groups that already existed and had foreign patrons backing them. Guns and ammo don't grow on trees, you need connections to get those in sufficient quantities to form a serious fighting force. The Shiite militias were as successful as they were partly due to Iranian support. Sunni powers backed Sunni jihadists. There were Sunni militias affiliated with the Shiites though.

Point is there isn't a unanimously legitimate government to fight for.in that case so its absurd to compare it to Ukraine.

 

[Goonerview]

But it is "bigotry" and often "racism" even if you are saying it is 'natural' and 'ok'.

I mean even if we agree it happens naturally and is ok to do, that does not mean we cannot be naturally bigotted and/or racist.

As a baby, you are naturally more familiar with your family members than people who are not your family members.

Is that baby bigoted? Discriminatory? Racist? Mean-spirited? Wrong?

I mean, you can put a negative frame on natural human (actually, animal) behavior, if you want to, or you could just accept it and live in reality, not some idealized world.

You are essentially arguing that “gravity shouldn’t exist” because it’s “not fair”.