Turtle guard / Octopus guard?

[Uchi Mata]

I've been trying to work on my open guard game and as a result I've been getting passed alot. My first reaction is to turtle up rather than letting someone get side control. Some of the higher belts have been telling me that its a bad habit, but it still seems like a better option than ending in the bottom of side control.

I got the Telles dvd and I've been managing to hit the sweeps he shows about 50% of the time. As a result, I'm feeling more comfortable going to turtle. Am I missing something though? I'm still a white belt and I don't really see many of the higher belts using turtle that often.

Turtle > side control any time. I don't know why any higher belt would tell you otherwise. First defend the pass, then re-guard if possible, but if you can't then turtle is much better than giving up side control.

 

[Shemhazai]

I turtle a lot, but all I ever do from there is roll and recover guard in some manner. I don't like to open up at all when giving my back, so my elbows stay glued to my sides.

 

[Goat Meal]

I've been trying to work on my open guard game and as a result I've been getting passed alot. My first reaction is to turtle up rather than letting someone get side control. Some of the higher belts have been telling me that its a bad habit, but it still seems like a better option than ending in the bottom of side control.

I got the Telles dvd and I've been managing to hit the sweeps he shows about 50% of the time. As a result, I'm feeling more comfortable going to turtle. Am I missing something though? I'm still a white belt and I don't really see many of the higher belts using turtle that often.

What's up, Jay?

Work on both. It's important to learn how to escape side mount but Turtle is a great position, too. I think the key thing is remembering to defend properly while also being on the lookout for attacks. If you just hang out in Turtle, after a while, you'll get subbed.

 

[Leify]

Has anyone seen any videos or instruction regarding a sweep from turtle that I've come to call the uchimata roll?

The basic premise here is that while you are in turtle and your opponent is attacking from their knees behind you, you shoot one of your legs back between their legs and hook their leg on the same side over the calf with your toes (preventing their back hook on that side), then get a sleeve grip on the opponent on the side opposite of the leg you shot back (if left leg is back, get a sleeve grip on your right side) and finally roll over your shoulder to the side you have grabbed the sleeve on. The end result is you end up on top in reverse half guard, as if you had done an uchimata from the feet but also flipped and landed on your opponent in doing so, a relatively easy position to pass to side control from.

I pulled this off recently, partly by accident, but it felt smooth and very effective. I don't know if the sweep has another name and I have just never come across it otherwise, but I'm sure I didn't invent it, so chime in please.

 

[Zankou]

Has anyone seen any videos or instruction regarding a sweep from turtle that I've come to call the uchimata roll?

The basic premise here is that while you are in turtle and your opponent is attacking from their knees behind you, you shoot one of your legs back between their legs and hook their leg on the same side over the calf with your toes (preventing their back hook on that side), then get a sleeve grip on the opponent on the side opposite of the leg you shot back (if left leg is back, get a sleeve grip on your right side) and finally roll over your shoulder to the side you have grabbed the sleeve on. The end result is you end up on top in reverse half guard, as if you had done an uchimata from the feet but also flipped and landed on your opponent in doing so, a relatively easy position to pass to side control from.

I pulled this off recently, partly by accident, but it felt smooth and very effective. I don't know if the sweep has another name and I have just never come across it otherwise, but I'm sure I didn't invent it, so chime in please.

What you are describing is just a rolling kneebar from turtle dude, except instead of finishing the submission you are taking the position. Very classic and strong turtle attack. Can be used to submit or sweep.

 

[Leify]

What you are describing is just a rolling kneebar from turtle dude, except instead of finishing the submission you are taking the position. Very classic and strong turtle attack. Can be used to submit or sweep.

Hah, I feel foolish now. Knew the kneebar was there, but didn't put two and two together. :redface:

 

[HIMBOB]

When turtled, understand that you need to stand up, reverse, roll or sub the guy straight away. Do not just sit there unless rules allow it. The guard is a passive position, the turtle not!

Basically what I came to say, I don't consider Turtle as a type of guard. It is clearly an inferior position.

 

[Jaxx]

Basically what I came to say, I don't consider Turtle as a type of guard. It is clearly an inferior position.

Correct, being on the bottom is clearly inferior in any respect.

The turtle is miles better than being pinned in side control/scarf hold or any other postition.

 

[HIMBOB]

Correct, being on the bottom is clearly inferior in any respect.

The turtle is miles better than being pinned in side control/scarf hold or any other postition.

Re the bolded, Usually yes but if you are in my GUARD it is not so clear cut as I can control your hips and thus limit what you can do. In Turtle I really don't have control of you thus not a guard. Well my way of thinking.

All that being said, getting a guard is a way of making the best of a bad situation.

 

[oyaji poi]

I think noobs should be taught the turtle position either before guard or alongside it, for a similar reason that I heard Saulo Riberio teaches open guard instead of closed guard to noobs - to avoid guard becoming a safety position and to teach being active on the bottom by going for sweeps, subs, or sitouts.

The three S's??

Anyway, this clip with Randy, Frank, and some guy named Neil is a good demonstration of how people with a wrestling background would use the turtle position in sub-grappling: