International TSMC Arizona struggled with "US work culture" so it imported Taiwanese migrants.. but now being targeted by crime

[jefferz]

Where did I say it did? Reading comprehension may not be your strong suit..let me give it to you again

"While DEI nonsense has been accused of delaying CHIP ACT progress" and then linking a piece that outlines that argument

Then I followed with: "this seems to be more connected to the ability differences of American vs Taiwanese labor" to respond to the claim in the OP

Your link doesn’t verify anything about TSMC not being able to find workers because of DEI.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Your link doesn’t verify anything about TSMC not being able to find workers because of DEI.

Wow, you really have a lack of reading comprehension; it's really quite astonishing. The article I linked is referencing DEI bloat as it relates to the entire rollout of the chips act. Then I said the OP point is not related as the article he linked is with regards to labor ability of Taiwanese vs American fab workers.

If you want, I can send you some funds for a tutor...feel free to pick the most diversity hire of bunch.

 

[avenue94]

I would say Arizona is as desirable of a place as anywhere fabs are located in the US as they already have a large Fab workforce and im sure workforce availability was factored into the decision to build a plant there.And I agree with high school and vocational schools but having to reach out to the dregs of the workforce, that's just nah.

I support bringing in the Asian workforce to meet demands

It is far less desirable to most high income workers than the Silicon Forest or Silicon Valley. Most of this workforce would also take the second tier fabs over Phoenix. Weather sucks ass and the infrastructure isn't built out yet. Greater Phoenix area will be very different in a couple decades, but for now, it's a big downgrade compared to existing sites.

Who are the dregs of the workforce you think we're reaching out to? And you hate recruiting minorities so much you'd rather than foreign workers over Americans? That's a twist.

 

[jefferz]

Wow, you really have a lack of reading comprehension; it's really quite astonishing. The article I linked is referencing DEI bloat as it relates to the entire rollout of the chips act. Then I said the OP point is not related as the article he linked is with regards to labor ability of Taiwanese vs American fab workers.

If you want, I can send you some funds for a tutor...feel free to pick the most diversity hire of bunch.

The only mentions of DEI in your article is the author repeating it over and over again.
There’s no evidence in the article that says they can’t get workers because of DEI, like you claimed in the OP.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

The only mentions of DEI in your article is the author repeating it over and over again.
There’s no evidence in the article that says they can’t get workers because of DEI,

Right? It establishing links between DEI bloat and the roll out of the CHIPS act as a whole

How are you not getting this???

like you claimed in the OP.

I didn't write the OP, nor am I the TS, so how can I claim anything in the OP? Im starting to think you have a brain tumor.

In REGARDS to the OP I already said the TS' link is more due to the worker ability between Taiwan and The US.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

It is far less desirable to most high income workers than the Silicon Forest or Silicon Valley. Most of this workforce would also take the second tier fabs over Phoenix. Weather sucks ass and the infrastructure isn't built out yet. Greater Phoenix area will be very different in a couple decades, but for now, it's a big downgrade compared to existing sites.

I personally love the Phoenix/ Scottsdale area and considering Intel and TI also have successfully establish themselves in similar areas, not sure your personal feelings mean much here as whole. But you do you.

Who are the dregs of the workforce you think we're reaching out to? And you hate recruiting minorities so much you'd rather than foreign workers over Americans? That's a twist.

Basically any standard general labour warehouse employee. Not sure what you take from the NIST sheer suggesting reaching out to minorities who are not currently in the SC fab space, but I don't think they are talking about established technology sector workers. Unless you're taking It the government is demanding TM DEI hires are going to be on the professional STEM side and not entry level technician side?


And I much prefer an established foreign work base (which WOULD be minorities) that can hit the floor running and can meet the needs of TSMC.

 

[avenue94]

I personally love the Phoenix/ Scottsdale area and considering Intel and TI also have successfully establish themselves in similar areas, not sure your personal feelings mean much here as whole. But you do you

Intels fab is in Chandler, whereas TSMC's fab is more or less in the middle of nowhere comparatively. Most engineers commute for the former whereas if you're at the latter you can live a lot closer and still have options.

I didn't say I didn't want to live in Phoenix but clearly engineers don't like living in the greater Phoenix area where TSMC is. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about labor issues.

Also keep in mind that Intel's commuter jets were very popular. Even Silicon Forest was less preferable than Norcal with all of its downsides. Phoenix and TSMC's style lags behind even the former for most engineers to the point that TSMC still has challenges even though there are hundreds or thousands of ex Intel Folks on the Job marker currently.

Basically any standard general labour warehouse employee. Not sure what you take from the NIST sheer suggesting reaching out to minorities who are not currently in the SC fab space, but I don't think they are talking about established technology sector workers. Unless you're taking It the government is demanding TM DEI hires are going to be on the professional STEM side and not entry level technician side?

They aren't reaching out to warehouse laborers that much. Warehouse tasks aren't where you have Labor issues, in fact chip manufacturing is among the most touch free industries you find as far as physical labor. It's too sensitive for human hands and decisions.

TSMC and it's recruiters are primarily looking at kid in high school and earlier in order to develop a pipeline that yields engineers and other specialized roles in 10 or 15 years. Chip fab economics are forecast over the span of decades, not a few years at a time.

It's also not bring in foreign labor or more domestic outreach to find more workers It's both. Neither is sufficient on its own.

 

[Deorum]

@Deorum

USA USA USA

I've met some of them. Taiwanese are really awkward, very obviously foreign, and sadly kind of make for easy marks.

I would say Arizona is as desirable of a place as anywhere fabs are located in the US as they already have a large Fab workforce and im sure workforce availability was factored into the decision to build a plant there. And I agree with high school and vocational schools but having to reach out to the dregs of the workforce, that's just nah.

Yeah, wtf. Arizona is awesome. The Grand Canyon State! Everyone imagines the scenery of the basin and range's blistering Sonoran Desert with Saguaros dominating the landscape (they're cool, and it's a felony to fuck with them -- 25 years in prison for cutting one down), but a significant chunk of the state sits at a base elevation between 5,000-9,000 feet above sea level. There are six national forests, including the largest contiguous grove of ponderosa pine trees in the world (Mogollon Monster lives there, heh). The North Rim of the GC on the Kaibab Plateau is one of the most remote areas of the United States and easily one of the most pristine wilderness areas left on Earth. AZ's got a huge stretch of old Route 66 with the most interesting roadside attractions of the whole shit that ran from Chicago to Santa Monica, just an excellent road trip experience destination on the whole.

(@Long Dark Blues)

I personally love the Phoenix/Scottsdale area and considering Intel and TI also have successfully establish themselves in similar areas, not sure your personal feelings mean much here as whole. But you do you.

I'm surprised you don't have a winter home down here by now, lol. I prefer the neighborhoods and vibe of the Biltmore/Esplanade area of Phoenix (which borders it), but Scottsdale is an amazing "suburb" -- affluent, clean, safe with all the character of a legit city of its own. It has all the amenities and conveniences a city person could want without the negatives of a big city and more art galleries, bars, restaurants, resorts, shops, golf courses than they'd know what to do with. There are more AAA Five Diamond hotels and resorts in Scottsdale than any city in the US outside of NYC, Chicago, and Vegas despite being a tiny fraction of their populations. There are no poors.

 

[avenue94]

Yeah, wtf. Arizona is awesome. The Grand Canyon State! Everyone imagines the scenery of the basin and range's blistering Sonoran Desert with Saguaros dominating the landscape (they're cool, and it's a felony to fuck with them -- 25 years in prison for cutting one down), but a significant chunk of the state sits at a base elevation between 5,000-9000 feet above sea level. There are six national forests, including the largest contiguous grove of ponderosa pine trees in the world. The North Rim of the GC on the Kaibab Plateau is one of the most remote areas of the United States and easily one of the most pristine wilderness areas left on Earth. AZ's got a huge stretch of old Route 66 with the most interesting roadside attractions of the whole shit that ran from Chicago to Santa Monica, just an excellent road trip experience destination on the whole

If the area TSMC is so desirable why the shortage of skilled labor? I'm not saying it's a shithole but it's location has very plainly not been enough to entice Intel fab folks to move over, and more broadly speaking many of the more specialized skillsets in semiconductor fabs.

 

[Deorum]

If the area TSMC is so desirable why the shortage of skilled labor? I'm not saying it's a shithole but it's location has very plainly not been enough to entice Intel fab folks to move over, and more broadly speaking many of the more specialized skillsets in semiconductor fabs.

It kind of sounds like TSMC isn't a particularly desirable place to work. The Greater Phoenix industry ecosystem is as robust as any area in the country outside of the Pacific Coast. It's why they chose it to begin with; it's not like it was random or decided by throwing darts at a map.

 

[Belaya Smert]

I was just cultural differences you guys. Yeah, Not buying it.

 

[avenue94]

It kind of sounds like TSMC isn't a particularly desirable place to work. The Greater Phoenix industry ecosystem is as robust as any area in the country outside of the Pacific Coast. It's why they chose it to begin with; it's not like it was random or decided by throwing darts at a map.

It's both, TSMC isn't a fun place to work so that makes location and other factors more important. You seem to be from the area, would my description of the specific location TSMC picked for the fab as a less developed area outside of Phoenix be fair?

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

I'm surprised you don't have a winter home down here by now, lol. I prefer the neighborhoods and vibe of the Biltmore/Esplanade area of Phoenix (which borders it), but Scottsdale is an amazing "suburb" -- affluent, clean, safe with all the character of a legit city of its own. It has all the amenities and conveniences a city person could want without the negatives of a big city and more art galleries, bars, restaurants, resorts, shops, golf courses than they'd know what to do with. There are more AAA Five Diamond hotels and resorts in Scottsdale than any city in the US outside of NYC, Chicago, and Vegas despite being a tiny fraction of their populations. There are no poors.

Brother if it wasn't for the wife having her practice so established and her family so close by -- I'd be summering in the Denver area and Wintering in Scottsdale. But Arizona is absolutely my future winter vacation home/ retirement destination. To me there's not a better area in the world for my interests and it's beyond beautiful.

I also know the industry well and TMSC biggest issue is work culture and expectations. They went full in on the notion that the Phoenix plant was going to be as productive if not more so than the Taiwan plant with the same quality rate. American Engs ( and fab techs) are just not use to the military all hands on deck 24/7 style.

Here's a good article on it.

Inside TSMC’s struggle to build a chip factory in the U.S. suburbs

Missed deadlines and tension among Taiwanese and American coworkers are plaguing the chip giant’s Phoenix expansion.

restofworld.org

Also note that they also have expanded into Japan, and while Japan plant isn't fabricating as advanced of chip' they are matching the production demands; because Asians just get it (Americans get it too, they just are not used to being the leads) and covid slowed the transition period.

 

[Deorum]

I also know the industry well and TMSC biggest issue is work culture and expectations. They went full in on the notion that the Phoenix plant was going to be as productive if not more so than the Taiwan plant with the same quality rate. American Engs ( and fab techs) are just not use to the military all hands on deck 24/7 style.

Here's a good article on it.

Inside TSMC’s struggle to build a chip factory in the U.S. suburbs

Missed deadlines and tension among Taiwanese and American coworkers are plaguing the chip giant’s Phoenix expansion.

restofworld.org

Also note that they also have expanded into Japan, and while Japan plant isn't fabricating as advanced of chip' they are matching the production demands; because Asians just get it (Americans get it too, they just are not used to being the leads) and covid slowed the transition period.

I think it's all entirely overblown, tbh. That article calling it a "debacle" is from April 2024, while the one the TS linked in the OP is from August. There are various people actively rooting for failure for a variety of reasons, and it's pathetic. There is no amount of propaganda, wishful thinking, or divarsity, equity, and inclooosion shit that is going to stop these fucking fabs (plural).

It's both, TSMC isn't a fun place to work so that makes location and other factors more important. You seem to be from the area, would my description of the specific location TSMC picked for the fab as a less developed area outside of Phoenix be fair?

Yes, the TSMC site is the 'little' red dot on the map below (it's actually massive). It's out of the way from the research university and industrial technology corridor in a far less developed area that is no less than 50 miles away from Intel's Ocotillo campus. They wanted a lot of land for future expansion.

 

[Deorum]

It's also worth noting that TSMC's Arizona investment predates the CHIPS Act by years, and had virtually no bearing on their decision. The $6.6 billion grant it has recently been approved for by the Department of Commerce barely covers the cost of the OG 2020 investment of $12 billion. They're dropping 65 now. The construction of the second fab's structure is already finished, and only needs to be fitted and tuned with the capital equipment.

TSMC brings 1,600 jobs to Arizona with new $12B factory - AZ Big Media

Gov. Doug Ducey today announced that following a national search, TSMC has selected Arizona for its new U.S. advanced semiconductor factory.

azbigmedia.com

May 19, 2020

Gov. Doug Ducey today announced that following a national search, Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) has selected Arizona for its new U.S. advanced semiconductor factory. The project will create over 1,600 new high-tech jobs and generate thousands of additional jobs in the state for suppliers and other companies within the semiconductor industry. TSMC’s total spending on this project, including capital expenditure, will be approximately $12 billion from 2021 to 2029.

TSMC will add 2nd Phoenix facility, increase investment to $40B - AZ Big Media

On Dec. 6, President Biden will visit the TSMC chip fab in Phoenix as it grows its investment in Arizona from $12 billion to $40 billion.

azbigmedia.com

December 18, 2022

President Joe Biden touched down in Arizona on Dec. 6 for the first time since the 2020 election to visit the construction site of Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company’s (TSMC) chip plant in North Phoenix. At the event, TSMC announced an additional $28 billion of investment in Arizona, growing from $12 billion to $40 billion. The $12 billion investment was already the largest in Arizona history.

“In terms of scale, this is the largest foreign direct investment in Arizona history, and it’s one of the largest in U.S. history,” explains Brian Deese, National Economic Council Director.

TSMC plans third fab in Phoenix, increases investment to $65 billion - AZ Big Media

At $65 billion, TSMC ’s investment is the largest foreign direct investment in a greenfield project in U.S. history.

azbigmedia.com

April 21, 2024

On April 8, the Biden-Harris Administration announced that the U.S. Department of Commerce and Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) have signed a non-binding preliminary memorandum of terms (PMT) to provide up to $6.6 billion in direct funding under the CHIPS and Science Act. This proposed funding would support TSMC’s investment of more than $65 billion in three greenfield fabs in Phoenix, which will manufacture the world’s most advanced semiconductors. After initially announcing two fabs in the U.S., TSMC is committing to build an additional third fab before the end of the decade.

TSMC’s investment in the U.S. is also catalyzing meaningful investment across the supply chain, including from 14 direct suppliers that plan to construct or expand plants in Arizona or other parts of the U.S., further strengthening U.S. domestic supply chain resilience. At full capacity, TSMC‘s three Phoenix-based fabs would manufacture tens of millions of leading-edge chips that will power products like 5G/6G smartphones, autonomous vehicles and AI datacenter servers. TSMC expects to begin high-volume production in their first fab in the U.S. by the first half of 2025.

 

[stalehotdog]

From the OP's link



But yeah, it's definitely DEI that's preventing TSMC from getting workers, and has nothing to do with how TSMC treats their workers. It says so right in the article.

My friend lasted 3 months at TSMC. He was born and grew up in the states but lived in Taiwan during the summers so he’s fluent in both languages. He said they really treat you like absolute shit if you were a Mandarin speaker. The reason being the people in upper management usually don’t have a strong grasp on the English language so non speakers wouldn’t understand all the foul shit and abuse they were hurling at them.

 

[Deorum]

You seem to be from the area, would my description of the specific location TSMC picked for the fab as a less developed area outside of Phoenix be fair?

They're building a city.

 

[Starck]

Can't blame people for not wanting to commute up to the wastes near Anthem.