Economy Trump's April 2nd Tariffs

Islam Imamate said:
As I said earlier we are very possibly looking at the beginning of the end of the American led rules based order so not "end times" but maybe the end of America as the leader of the liberal transatlantic alliance. To mock that by attacking strawman about "end times" is your way of obfuscating that, as if the people to mock here are the ones pointing to Trump's slash and burn approach to bureaucracy, trade, and diplomacy and not people like you who downplay it.

The reality is that the most vociferous Trump critics who assumed the worst have been right pretty much every step of the way while mealy mouthed "independents" like yourself who can't help themselves from minimizing the damage Trump does and equivocating between both sides couldn't have been more wrong and should generally be dismissed and held in contempt. I'm sure you're feeling it yourself these past few weeks and the more serious people stop taking people like you seriously the better.
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Whatever you say.
 
Seano said:
I'm nto going to spend all morning getting into specifics. I think you know what we've lost.

We used to lead the world. We were innovators. We were creators. We produced things the world needs. We've watched our manufacturing dissipate while our dependence of adversaries has increased exponentially. There were more reasons to be proud of who we are. We sold ourselves out to other countries and the reasons why escape me.

Now we're the worlds Salvation Army, basically. We're like the giant bowl of candy other countries pass on their way to better themselves, while shitting on us if we try to compete. We have to take the shit end in trade with EVERYONE. Our products we do manage to trade are tariff'd to the point of non competition and when we do the EXACT same thing, we are accused of a literal apocalypse. Not only do we eat shit on trade, we spend more to defend the EU than most of the EU does combined AND have to spend billions more on foreign aid than anyone else on top of that. How is this acceptable to anyone?
The big problem with that is that now we've had an entire generation who have never seen us as anything else. They don't understand what its like to live in a country that they're proud of. I know, its sounds like romantic hyperbole, but its the truth. There is an entire generation who has never felt pride in who they are.
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As a nation, our wealth has exploded exponentially over the period of time you're referring to here. Since 1970, our GDP has gone from about $1 trillion, to $30 trillion. We currently own roughly 1/3 of the total global wealth.

So where is it? Why are tens of millions of hard working Americans barely making ends meet if our overall wealth has skyrocketed? Why is our infrastructure shit? Why is our healthcare absurdly expensive? Why do we lag behind in renewable energy so much? Why can't you find a decent house for a reasonable amount of money in the vast majority of the country?

Where did it all go? Are you saying China is to blame for the fact that 30-50% of the wealth in this country is hoarded by less than 1% of the population?

The bottom line is this: The entire outsourcing economy that we currently have was created and supported by the ultra wealthy in this nation to reduce cost in labor and inputs, so that profits could be further maximized and distributed to said ultra wealthy. This is free-market Capitalism.

Do you realize how absolutely fucking retarded it is to somehow blame China or any other country for this? While simultaneously supporting the Republican party which has done everything in their power to push down wages, end progressive tax systems, and stomp out unionization and economic / financial regulation?

You and I may agree on many aspects of what we want our economic system to be, but we are completely disconnected about how it can come to pass. Donald Trump has zero point zero interest in properly taxing and utilizing wealth for the good of society, improving wages, improving infrastructure, or anything like that. He wants economic disparity that's even worse than what we currently have, and is doing everything in his power at the moment to make that happen. How in the FUCK can you possibly support that?
 
Seano said:
I'm nto going to spend all morning getting into specifics. I think you know what we've lost.

We used to lead the world. We were innovators. We were creators. We produced things the world needs. We've watched our manufacturing dissipate while our dependence of adversaries has increased exponentially. There were more reasons to be proud of who we are. We sold ourselves out to other countries and the reasons why escape me.

Now we're the worlds Salvation Army, basically. We're like the giant bowl of candy other countries pass on their way to better themselves, while shitting on us if we try to compete. We have to take the shit end in trade with EVERYONE. Our products we do manage to trade are tariff'd to the point of non competition and when we do the EXACT same thing, we are accused of a literal apocalypse. Not only do we eat shit on trade, we spend more to defend the EU than most of the EU does combined AND have to spend billions more on foreign aid than anyone else on top of that. How is this acceptable to anyone?
The big problem with that is that now we've had an entire generation who have never seen us as anything else. They don't understand what its like to live in a country that they're proud of. I know, its sounds like romantic hyperbole, but its the truth. There is an entire generation who has never felt pride in who they are.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing. All of what you mentioned is not the fault of another country. The reason America does not innovate is because our government and the corporations that run America chose not to innovate. All the examples I included about cars in the last post are not the fault of another country initially. Corporations made the decision to move a lot of those jobs that made America so great to other countries. Yet the solution from multiple Presidents and Congress has been to tariff and punish other countries.

We don't punish the greedy corporations for turning their back on America or leaving because they do not want to provide a standard living wage. You are high on what America was and could be. So, for example, what stops America from leading in software development? Is it education? Is it the ability to get work in the field? All of that was limited by corporations. Why? Because they wanted cheaper labor inputs from another country.
 
heloder said:
You and I may agree on many aspects of what we want our economic system to be, but we are completely disconnected about how it can come to pass. Donald Trump has zero point zero interest in properly taxing and utilizing wealth for the good of society, improving wages, improving infrastructure, or anything like that. He wants economic disparity that's even worse than what we currently have, and is doing everything in his power at the moment to make that happen. How in the FUCK can you possibly support that?
Click to expand...

To be fair Americans have had it beat into our brains that the government can do nothing for us going back to JFK and Reagan. Generations have literally been told over and over again less government is good, and to be fair to people like Seano the 80's and 90's were decent times to be an American, especially an American with "privilege".

But how can someone support that you say? Sometimes it is easy to blame someone else than to blame yourself. That being said, Conservatives/Republicans specifically are odd in how they think. They want us to be the best country in the world but they don't want to invest in education. They don't want to pay more in taxes but they want Social Security. They want people to work and support themselves but don't want to raise the minimum age when the cost of living goes up but will support a COLA for Social Security. It doesn't make sense unless someone can tell me differently.
 
This presidency is like a flashbang grenade for your brain. Shock and awe. If you don't keep up with the news for a few days you literally have no idea what's even happening, which I'm guessing is the point.
 

Buick finally had cars Americans wanted to buy - then came tariffs​

By Kalea Hall

  • Three of Buick's top-sellling vehicles are made in South Korea and China and subject to tariffs
  • Tariffs are expected to add thousands to the sticker price of the Envision, Encore, and Envista
  • Higher prices threaten Buick's sales momentum and could threaten its survival
DETROIT, April 19 (Reuters) - General Motors’ (GM.N), opens new tab Buick was on a roll. Sales for the once-stodgy brand were up 39% in the first quarter with a refreshed lineup of compact SUVs including the Envision, Encore GX, and the Envista, its top-selling SUV for under $30,000.
Then President Trump’s tariffs hit.

Buick’s three most popular models are made outside the U.S. The Envista and Encore GX are both built in South Korea, while the Envision SUV is made in China.

That means all three are now subject to stiff tariffs that could add thousands to sticker prices on dealer lots in the U.S.

Buick’s South Korea-made models face a 27.5% tariff and the Envision out of China faces a steep 47.5% fee with a 25% auto tariff, a 20% China fentanyl tariff and a previously existing 2.5% auto tax, according to a Barclays analysis.

It's bad news for Buick dealers, which have been thrilled by recent models by the brand that has for years struggled to shake off a stereotype that may no longer apply.

Analysts believe higher prices could stall Buick’s momentum, and even threaten its survival.

"The latest wave of Buick vehicles is affordable, are good quality, are decent vehicles, and ruining that with a cost disadvantage could upset Buick as a going entity in the U.S.," said Sam Fiorani, vice president of research firm AutoForecast Solutions.
Buick declined to comment for this story.

RE-EVALUATING PORTFOLIOS​

Trump's tariffs are pushing auto executives to analyze their portfolios and evaluate if the costs are worth it in the long term to keep importing some foreign-made models. The tariffs, enacted earlier this month, have already led to some changes.

GM moved to increase truck output at an Indiana plant and Stellantis (STLAM.MI), opens new tab, maker of Ram trucks and Jeeps, temporarily halted production at two plants in Mexico and in Canada.
In a Tuesday, April 15 note, Barclays said it's assuming automakers "will no longer sell vehicles that cannot be sold profitably," including vehicles imported from China and Korea as a result of auto tariffs.

For GM specifically, Barclays expects the automaker will cease imports out of Korea and China of about 450,000 vehicles because of tariffs.

Barclays is cutting its 2025 GM earnings before interest and taxes estimates by 40% based on lower volume and the gross tariff impact of about $9.5 billion. For its crosstown competitor Ford Motor (F.N), opens new tab, Barclays expects a 60% reduction with a gross tariff impact of about $7 billion. Ford ships its Lincoln Nautilus from China.

Affordable vehicles like the Envista and Chevrolet Trax, both built in South Korea, stand to take the biggest hit from tariffs because automakers often build them outside the U.S.

The impact on affordable vehicles is an industry-wide concern with the average transaction price of a new vehicle in the U.S. "north of $48,000," according to research firm Cox Automotive, which expects tariffs will cause a 10% to 15% increase in prices of affected models, and an overall 5% jump in prices of vehicles not subject to the levies.

STALLING THE NEW BUICK​

Buick's lineup has either been replaced or refreshed in the last 20 months leading to sales increases. The brand’s yearly sales in 2023 increased by 61% and by 10% in 2024, according to the company’s sales figures.
The 2023 arrival of the Envista, a small SUV priced starting at $23,800, elevated the brand. New styling for the Envision, a compact SUV starting at $36,500, came last year, further amplifying it.

“Envision is the bestseller right now,” said Jeff Laethem, GMC and Buick dealer in Detroit. “Once they put the Envista styling on it, that's when it took off.”

Buick’s market share in the U.S. has jumped from 0.8% in 2022 to 1.1% in 2024 and 1.6% in the first quarter of 2025, according to data from Edmunds.com.

Buick has “probably the strongest momentum they've had in decades,” said Ivan Drury, director of insights at research firm Edmunds. “If this momentum slows down, stalls or stops, then it’s not putting a nail in the coffin, but you're really ruining a good thing … it does dampen the dream of bringing back what was a very historic and important nameplate in the U.S. auto industry.”

Buick had a healthy supply on dealer lots as of early April with 53 days, above the industry average of 47, according to Edmunds.

While the global trade war continues, GM also has to consider the difficulties it’s facing in China, a leading market for the Buick brand. GM and other foreign automakers in China have been struggling to gain footing in a market overtaken by domestically-manufactured electric vehicles.

Buick's sales have declined in China by 65% from 2020 to 2024, according to data from Telemetry, a Detroit-area automotive advisory firm.
With tariffs and market uncertainty in China, there is a “risk to the survival of the brand,” said Sam Abuelsamid, vice president of insights at Telemetry.

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...cans-wanted-buy-then-came-tariffs-2025-04-19/

- Ford took a huge blow i think was yesterday. Look like those tarifs have a intent to bring american cars manufactures down.
 
LeonardoBjj said:

Buick finally had cars Americans wanted to buy - then came tariffs​

By Kalea Hall

  • Three of Buick's top-sellling vehicles are made in South Korea and China and subject to tariffs
  • Tariffs are expected to add thousands to the sticker price of the Envision, Encore, and Envista
  • Higher prices threaten Buick's sales momentum and could threaten its survival
DETROIT, April 19 (Reuters) - General Motors’ (GM.N), opens new tab Buick was on a roll. Sales for the once-stodgy brand were up 39% in the first quarter with a refreshed lineup of compact SUVs including the Envision, Encore GX, and the Envista, its top-selling SUV for under $30,000.
Then President Trump’s tariffs hit.

Buick’s three most popular models are made outside the U.S. The Envista and Encore GX are both built in South Korea, while the Envision SUV is made in China.

That means all three are now subject to stiff tariffs that could add thousands to sticker prices on dealer lots in the U.S.

Buick’s South Korea-made models face a 27.5% tariff and the Envision out of China faces a steep 47.5% fee with a 25% auto tariff, a 20% China fentanyl tariff and a previously existing 2.5% auto tax, according to a Barclays analysis.

It's bad news for Buick dealers, which have been thrilled by recent models by the brand that has for years struggled to shake off a stereotype that may no longer apply.

Analysts believe higher prices could stall Buick’s momentum, and even threaten its survival.

"The latest wave of Buick vehicles is affordable, are good quality, are decent vehicles, and ruining that with a cost disadvantage could upset Buick as a going entity in the U.S.," said Sam Fiorani, vice president of research firm AutoForecast Solutions.
Buick declined to comment for this story.

RE-EVALUATING PORTFOLIOS​

Trump's tariffs are pushing auto executives to analyze their portfolios and evaluate if the costs are worth it in the long term to keep importing some foreign-made models. The tariffs, enacted earlier this month, have already led to some changes.

GM moved to increase truck output at an Indiana plant and Stellantis (STLAM.MI), opens new tab, maker of Ram trucks and Jeeps, temporarily halted production at two plants in Mexico and in Canada.
In a Tuesday, April 15 note, Barclays said it's assuming automakers "will no longer sell vehicles that cannot be sold profitably," including vehicles imported from China and Korea as a result of auto tariffs.

For GM specifically, Barclays expects the automaker will cease imports out of Korea and China of about 450,000 vehicles because of tariffs.

Barclays is cutting its 2025 GM earnings before interest and taxes estimates by 40% based on lower volume and the gross tariff impact of about $9.5 billion. For its crosstown competitor Ford Motor (F.N), opens new tab, Barclays expects a 60% reduction with a gross tariff impact of about $7 billion. Ford ships its Lincoln Nautilus from China.

Affordable vehicles like the Envista and Chevrolet Trax, both built in South Korea, stand to take the biggest hit from tariffs because automakers often build them outside the U.S.

The impact on affordable vehicles is an industry-wide concern with the average transaction price of a new vehicle in the U.S. "north of $48,000," according to research firm Cox Automotive, which expects tariffs will cause a 10% to 15% increase in prices of affected models, and an overall 5% jump in prices of vehicles not subject to the levies.

STALLING THE NEW BUICK​

Buick's lineup has either been replaced or refreshed in the last 20 months leading to sales increases. The brand’s yearly sales in 2023 increased by 61% and by 10% in 2024, according to the company’s sales figures.
The 2023 arrival of the Envista, a small SUV priced starting at $23,800, elevated the brand. New styling for the Envision, a compact SUV starting at $36,500, came last year, further amplifying it.

“Envision is the bestseller right now,” said Jeff Laethem, GMC and Buick dealer in Detroit. “Once they put the Envista styling on it, that's when it took off.”

Buick’s market share in the U.S. has jumped from 0.8% in 2022 to 1.1% in 2024 and 1.6% in the first quarter of 2025, according to data from Edmunds.com.

Buick has “probably the strongest momentum they've had in decades,” said Ivan Drury, director of insights at research firm Edmunds. “If this momentum slows down, stalls or stops, then it’s not putting a nail in the coffin, but you're really ruining a good thing … it does dampen the dream of bringing back what was a very historic and important nameplate in the U.S. auto industry.”

Buick had a healthy supply on dealer lots as of early April with 53 days, above the industry average of 47, according to Edmunds.

While the global trade war continues, GM also has to consider the difficulties it’s facing in China, a leading market for the Buick brand. GM and other foreign automakers in China have been struggling to gain footing in a market overtaken by domestically-manufactured electric vehicles.

Buick's sales have declined in China by 65% from 2020 to 2024, according to data from Telemetry, a Detroit-area automotive advisory firm.
With tariffs and market uncertainty in China, there is a “risk to the survival of the brand,” said Sam Abuelsamid, vice president of insights at Telemetry.

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...cans-wanted-buy-then-came-tariffs-2025-04-19/

- Ford took a huge blow i think was yesterday. Look like those tarifs have a intent to bring american cars manufactures down.
Click to expand...

img_0693.jpg
 
I can’t wait for this big, beautiful trade deal, orchestrated by the genius DJT. Safe bet there will be bailouts for the industries that are getting fucked over, but luckily we have DOGE to fire some park rangers and fuck over veterans to pay for it. Somehow this is great for America. It has to be…
 
Seano said:
Because we can't exploit workers the same way China can. Thats another reason why our trade isn't fair.
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That's essentially what I said. Not just China either, a host of other countries. When I mentioned sovereign nations that's why--we can't tell them they have to change their laws. And sure you can de-incentivize American companies from taking advantage of that worker exploitation but you'll never do enough to offset the savings. And the added costs are passed on to the consumer anyway, which drags the economy down via heavy inflation.

The Chinese play dirty in a bunch of ways. Worker exploitation, stealing IP, cyber warfare...don't confuse me stating these tariffs are a bad idea with me carrying water for China. For all the shady shit that Western nations do on the global stage, the Chinese are way worse.

But the old expression "You don't cut off your nose to spite your face" applies here.
 
mkess101 said:
That's essentially what I said. Not just China either, a host of other countries. When I mentioned sovereign nations that's why--we can't tell them they have to change their laws. And sure you can de-incentivize American companies from taking advantage of that worker exploitation but you'll never do enough to offset the savings. And the added costs are passed on to the consumer anyway, which drags the economy down via heavy inflation.

The Chinese play dirty in a bunch of ways. Worker exploitation, stealing IP, cyber warfare...don't confuse me stating these tariffs are a bad idea with me carrying water for China. For all the shady shit that Western nations do on the global stage, the Chinese are way worse.

But the old expression "You don't cut off your nose to spite your face" applies here.
Click to expand...
You can include certain labor rights and regulations into free trade agreements as well as enforcement mechanisms.

Even if you did the cost of labor in developing countries would still be significantly lower than in the US though. Not to mention Trump and MAGA don't understand or appreciate the benefits of FTAs
 
Islam Imamate said:
You can include certain labor rights and regulations into free trade agreements as well as enforcement mechanisms.

Even if you did the cost of labor in developing countries would still be significantly lower than in the US though. Not to mention Trump and MAGA don't understand or appreciate the benefits of FTAs
Click to expand...

The enforcement mechanisms are often dubious though aren't they? This is going back awhile, but I remember reading about limited access for inspectors (like they were allowed into the places they wanted to see, but not when they wanted to go so conditions were made to look temporarily better than they were in reality). Also bribery of inspectors, etc was rampant (again, that's past tense so maybe not as much now?)

Either way yeah the tools available to try to level the playing field when it comes to worker protection etc aren't going to be effective enough to make a real dent unless you're willing to start a global recession to do it. And if you do, a lot of those people scraping by in Indonesia on $6/day won't even have those jobs and will starve.

The goal of eliminating slave labor (or near slave labor) is noble. Thinking we can tax it out of existence is foolish.
 
mkess101 said:
The enforcement mechanisms are often dubious though aren't they? This is going back awhile, but I remember reading about limited access for inspectors (like they were allowed into the places they wanted to see, but not when they wanted to go so conditions were made to look temporarily better than they were in reality). Also bribery of inspectors, etc was rampant (again, that's past tense so maybe not as much now?)

Either way yeah the tools available to try to level the playing field when it comes to worker protection etc aren't going to be effective enough to make a real dent unless you're willing to start a global recession to do it. And if you do, a lot of those people scraping by in Indonesia on $6/day won't even have those jobs and will starve.

The goal of eliminating slave labor (or near slave labor) is noble. Thinking we can tax it out of existence is foolish.
Click to expand...
We still live in a world of nation-states so yes there's only so much you can do when it comes to enforcement.

But if there's an FTA in place that the other country is violating that's when something like a retaliatory tariff targeting the industry in question might make sense.
 
Islam Imamate said:
We still live in a world of nation-states so yes there's only so much you can do when it comes to enforcement.

But if there's an FTA in place that the other country is violating that's when something like a retaliatory tariff targeting the industry in question might make sense.
Click to expand...

Yeah and TBH there might be more accurate enforcement mechanisms in place than there used to be, I'm not sure.

I'm not trying to say having workers rights clauses in trade agreements are a waste of time or have no effect. I think they have to be a net positive overall and while it might feel like a band aid on a bullet hole, it's likely that a lot of workers in 3rd world countries benefit from them.
 
Round-trip for the markets on the way, seems that pause stunt didn't instill any confidence in the markets.

At what point does MAGA admit Trump's policies are harming the economy? 3months in? 6 months? 5 years? Lol
 
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