International Trump/Vance or Zelensky - Who look the worst off in terms of public image by that Oval Office meeting?

[Rational Poster]

Only when a ceasefire has been signed and the troops etc can be deployed as peacekeepers. No one is talking about declaring war on Russia.

You and people like you embarrass yourselves by trying to turn every incident into the beginning of WWIII.

Imagine if our ancestors were this afraid of our own shadows.

We'd be on like World War XXXVII by now.

 

[Seano]

Only when a ceasefire has been signed and the troops etc can be deployed as peacekeepers. No one is talking about declaring war on Russia.

You and people like you embarrass yourselves by trying to turn every incident into the beginning of WWIII.

I'm not embarrassed, but thanks for the concern.

I mean, we already see a step up in rhetoric in Europe. Outrage at the US president trying to end the war.

 

[KnightTemplar]

I'm not embarrassed, but thanks for the concern.

I mean, we already see a step up in rhetoric in Europe. Outrage at the US president trying to end the war.

It's not outrage at ending the war. It's outrage at giving in to Putin and gifting him a win he couldn't have got on his own.

 

[Seano]

It's not outrage at ending the war. It's outrage at giving in to Putin and gifting him a win he couldn't have got on his own.

He's given Putin nothing.

 

[lowlife]

Ukraine should have never given away their nukes. I doubt we ever see a country willingly do that again.

Unless Trump decommissions our arsenal so we're more easily invaded by Russia lol.

 

[KnightTemplar]

He's given Putin nothing.

 

[rocketskates]

It's not outrage at ending the war. It's outrage at giving in to Putin and gifting him a win he couldn't have got on his own.

Honestly man, Trump has said plenty of stupid shit like “Ukraine started the war”, so hes not innocent, but he said that in negotiations he wants to get as much land for Ukraine as possible. He even said that Putin would need to make concessions of his own to end the war. Ukraine will likely have to make some concessions as well, but I doubt Zelenskyy or their government will agree to anything that they aren’t willing to part with.

I do think that the mineral deal could be worded better or have better stipulations to support Ukraine. It’s either both sides concede some things to reach an agreement, or they just continue to fight until Putin gives up. Not really sure of what will be the end result, but I think that the citizens of both countries wish for the war to end.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Honestly man, Trump has said plenty of stupid shit like “Ukraine started the war”, so hes not innocent, but he said that in negotiations he wants to get as much land for Ukraine as possible. He even said that Putin would need to make concessions of his own to end the war. Ukraine will likely have to make some concessions as well, but I doubt Zelenskyy or their government will agree to anything that they aren’t willing to part with.

I do think that the mineral deal could be worded better or have better stipulations to support Ukraine. It’s either both sides concede some things to reach an agreement, or they just continue to fight until Putin gives up. Not really sure of what will be the end result, but I think that the citizens of both countries wish for the war to end.

I'm not anti-Trump. I wanted him to win the election, although even back then I had misgivings about his stance on Russia/Ukraine. And I agree with him on Europe carrying their share of the water when it comes to defence, rather than expecting Uncle Sam to do all the heavy lifting.

But his handling of the Ukraine War so far has been clumsy at best. He's refused to condemn Russia for invading. His treatment of Zelensky last week was fucking embarrassing. That is NOT how the leader of the world's greatest superpower should behave.

I really hope you're right, and Trump is playing 4D Chess that will bring peace to Europe. But I don't see it so far.

 

[rocketskates]

I'm not anti-Trump. I wanted him to win the election, although even back then I had misgivings about his stance on Russia/Ukraine. And I agree with him on Europe carrying their share of the water when it comes to defence, rather than expecting Uncle Sam to do all the heavy lifting.

But his handling of the Ukraine War so far has been clumsy at best. He's refused to condemn Russia for invading. His treatment of Zelensky last week was fucking embarrassing. That is NOT how the leader of the world's greatest superpower should behave.

I really hope you're right, and Trump is playing 4D Chess that will bring peace to Europe. But I don't see it so far.

I hope so too man. Im also hoping that refusing to shit on Putin is a negotiation tactic to get him to the table for a diplomatic discussion. I don’t approve of him shitting on Ukraine, but they don’t have the upper hand in the war. From what I’ve read about the mineral deal it includes European NATO peacekeepers being installed in Ukraine, as well as Americans on the ground for the mineral digging, which I feel like would deter Putin from doing anything too crazy as he wouldn’t want to risk killing an American.

The profits from the deal go into a joint US/Ukraine fund of which 50% would be invested back into Ukraine. I don’t think that the full details have been released so there’s obviously some things that need to be worked out with Zelenskyy. I think it’s quite a bit more complicated than it seems on the surface. Ideally I’d love to see Ukraine get all of their land back and for Russia to fuck off, but I highly doubt Putin is going to agree to that given the investment he’s made into taking a small percentage of Ukraine.

 

[Romulas]

Russia is not your friend..they have been telling you for decades...they are actively trying to dethrone us.

Every country has been trying to dethrone every other country for all of existence. Russia is no where near able to even attempt it to the US.

We actually dethroned the Russian friendly government in Ukraine back in 2014. You can watch several documentaries about it.

 

[UberHere]

I don't see anyone that is "pro Putin".

I see some that are not Zelensky superfans. I see some that don't think Ukraine is worth a world war of nuclear superpowers. I see a LOT who don't want this stalemate death match to continue and be funded perpetually.

I think this is the biggest problem with people lately, you're either for or against whatever they're talking about. You're not allowed to sit anywhere in the middle.

The second biggest problem behind the tribalism you mention is that too many people want unattainable goals to met and won’t compromise on getting viable solutions.
To expand on the tribalism, it breeds cowardice. You’ve got people willingly going along with insanity because they don’t want to go against the grain within their tribe.

 

[syct23]

I'm not anti-Trump. I wanted him to win the election, although even back then I had misgivings about his stance on Russia/Ukraine. And I agree with him on Europe carrying their share of the water when it comes to defence, rather than expecting Uncle Sam to do all the heavy lifting.

But his handling of the Ukraine War so far has been clumsy at best. He's refused to condemn Russia for invading. His treatment of Zelensky last week was fucking embarrassing. That is NOT how the leader of the world's greatest superpower should behave.

I really hope you're right, and Trump is playing 4D Chess that will bring peace to Europe. But I don't see it so far.

trump seems to do this out of habit when negotiating anything.

First he makes a complete mess of things on purpose, to make everyone squirm, knowing that he will eventually except the deal. It is his way of showing everyone how broken things are before he swoops in to agree to something that fixes the situation.

Right now is the broken/squirmy part.

Wait another week or two, I think trump is waiting for the EU to come together to announce that they will be taking over the responsibility of financing and possibly EU boots in Ukraine, No US boots & US still gets mineral rights.

trump will wait to see if the EU will unite the clans.

If the EU does agree to lead, then trump will back the agreement, uniting the EU, patching up the EU and the US relations unifying EU & US v. Russia.

Well trump takes responsibility for unifying the alliance, saving Ukraine, getting minerals for the US all well he gets Ukraine off of his back well he can concern himself with other matters.

 

[rocketskates]

Every country has been trying to dethrone every other country for all of existence. Russia is no where near able to even attempt it to the US.

We actually dethroned the Russian friendly government in Ukraine back in 2014. You can watch several documentaries about it.

This. Russia can’t even dethrone Ukraine. They stand no chance against the United States.

 

[Rational Poster]

trump seems to do this out of habit when negotiating anything.

First he makes a complete mess of things on purpose, to make everyone squirm, knowing that he will eventually except the deal. It is his way of showing everyone how broken things are before he swoops in to agree to something that fixes the situation.

Right now is the broken/squirmy part.

Wait another week or two, I think trump is waiting for the EU to come together to announce that they will be taking over the responsibility of financing and possibly EU boots in Ukraine, No US boots & US still gets mineral rights.

trump will wait to see if the EU will unite the clans.

If the EU does agree to lead, then trump will back the agreement, uniting the EU, patching up the EU and the US relations unifying EU & US v. Russia.

Well trump takes responsibility for unifying the alliance, saving Ukraine, getting minerals for the US all well he gets Ukraine off of his back well he can concern himself with other matters.

Cool fan fiction.

 

[syct23]

Cool fan fiction.

Indeed!

That fart for a thought will dissipate by Wednesday…

Smell you later!

 

[MTT]

I'm not anti-Trump. I wanted him to win the election, although even back then I had misgivings about his stance on Russia/Ukraine. And I agree with him on Europe carrying their share of the water when it comes to defence, rather than expecting Uncle Sam to do all the heavy lifting.

But his handling of the Ukraine War so far has been clumsy at best. He's refused to condemn Russia for invading. His treatment of Zelensky last week was fucking embarrassing. That is NOT how the leader of the world's greatest superpower should behave.

I really hope you're right, and Trump is playing 4D Chess that will bring peace to Europe. But I don't see it so far.

I don't see it either. The tactic of riffing off the top 20 Kremlin talking points reeks of conciliation at the negotiation table. Blasting the lowest common denominator with buzzwords (dictator, 4% approval, NUKES!) to shift public support as a boot to the throat of an ally. You don't think Taiwanese leadership is having internal discussions? How long before the US deployed similar tactics during the dark days of war vs. China?

On one hand, the YouTube algorithm shows me proud soviet people marching thousands of miles to meet the German invasion, but not before clearing minefields with their bodies, allegedly. Then I arrive at Sherdog and I'm greeted with people leveraging heart-breaking Ukrainian conscription videos as evidence that Ukraine should capitulate. Not only that, but by supporting their resistance, their blood is on their allies' hands. You and I rewind 250 years, and your fellow Englishmen are using similar tactics on the French, working to undermine support for the American revolution. A war that wasn't universally popular amongst colonists. Benjamin Franklin, the money-grubbing jew.

People are scared to die in a nuclear war; Russia has them shook, and they are willing to give up their winning position on the board. It's crystalline, pure cope. It's far easier to blame Biden for slow-rolling support while the Ukrainians were reclaiming vast territory in the face of collapsing Russian lines. Both administrations suffer from the same condition, a lack of fortitude in the face of a more determined enemy.

 

[burningspear]

 

[calavera2]

Every country has been trying to dethrone every other country for all of existence. Russia is no where near able to even attempt it to the US.

We actually dethroned the Russian friendly government in Ukraine back in 2014. You can watch several documentaries about it.

This is false...we have allies...or used to have....and its a good thing to dethrone Russian influence where ever their shit hole way of life is being pushed.

 

[HomeCheese]

 

[HomeCheese]