Law Trump-Ukraine Megathread Vol 3.

[MikeMcMann]

By these whiners standards, every investigation should begin with a fully formed complaint that is essentially ready for trial the day it is begun.

No, I think some people are grasping at straws because "this is it" isn't funny as sarcasm.

Its nonsense.

Don't debate it, dismiss it.

This investigation has started with far more and far better substantiation than most would. An investigated by the IG, 'credible' and 'urgent' complaint that has had its major component, 'the phone call transcript' show that its core issue is, in fact, substantiated.

This is the same garbage argument the the Mueller investigation never had justification to be pursued to begin with. Something proven factually wrong. There is NO INSTANCE, where what was brought to US intelligence with regards to Papadopoulos bragging while having a drink with an Australian diplomat of knowing that Russia had damaging material to hurt the Dem campaign, that that WOULD NOT be investigated. It HAS to be investigated 100% of the time, EVERY TIME.

So no, don't get drawn into this garbage revisionist history. The whistleblower report is legit and REQUIRES investigation just as the Mueller investigation HAD TO HAPPEN because on the underlying facts.

 

[Ophydian]

I don’t think he’s a legitimate foreign leader. He is basically the leader of the worlds biggest mafia, is in power through corrupt means and has no interest in the good of the planet. We don’t have to honor the wishes of “leaders” like that.

I get you but it’s all perspective. Unfortunately we live in a World where con man TV personalities conspire against political rivals and 38% of the country could care less. At some point after Trump we will once again need to repair our image to the World. You’d think after Bush we’d be tired of this shit.

 

[kpt018]

I get you but it’s all perspective. Unfortunately we live in a World where con man TV personalities conspire against political rivals and 38% of the country could care less. At some point after Trump we will once again need to repair our image to the World. You’d think after Bush we’d be tired of this shit.

I agree with this. But the relationship Trump has with Putin is hurting our image not helping. And neither man can be trusted.

If we could trust our president I would totally agree with you. I don't think private conversations between leaders should be made public at all. But Trump is so obviously corrupt and given what we know about what he tried to do with Ukraine and Australia it makes perfect sense that we want to know what he and Putin are up to. We have a bad actor in office and we need him out before we go back to normalcy.

 

[Andy Capp]

Read the memo issued by the ICIG. I can't hold your hand the entire time.

Please see below.

So is what you quoted correct or not? I’m not interested in addressing a hypothetical argument. You can argue with yourself if you like. Which one was you again - Lloyd or Harry?

What you said was irrelevant. I agree the sky is blue. So what?

And it isn't hypothetical in the least so it seems like you don't know what that means either. Let's try one more time.

The ICIG cannot add conditions to the filing of an urgent concern that do not exist in law.

That means Democrats didn't suddenly enact some partisan measure to persecute the president. It's very plain. This isn't a partisan issue. That you suggest otherwise only paints you as either quite dumb, or a pathetic troll that doesn't know how to pick his battles.

Now go away.

 

[bobgeese]

The predictions ITT echo the Russia threads.



How'd that work out for ya?

 

[Huhla]

That's really strange. I work on some of the largest, and top secret projects in the United States for the Federal Government. My company is currently working on the Hanford Waste Clean Up Project. It's a massive multi-billion a year project. I have also done work for Y12 (Oak Ridge, TN) - Manhattan Project origination. I have degrees for UCSD, UCLA, and George Washington. Your post has zero substance and is all ad hominem attacks.

As a note, I also maintain most of the nation's nuclear power plants as customers. My company performs high end massive data integrations and lighting speed thanks to our massively parallel data processing IP that China has tried to steal often.

Apparently you're not very good at your super top secret job

 

[glenwo2]

But the form was changed “sometime between April 2018 and August 2019” - Gandhi

Of course it was.

And the moon is made of cheese.

Very convenient to put down a range of dates that make it seem far away from the month of August. #TryingToCoverTheirAss

I ain't buying that shit. The change happened in August (that range is an attempt at misdirection, imo).

 

[Whippy McGee]

Apparently you're not very good at your super top secret job

My company is considered "best practices" in the nuclear industry for data services, data architecture, data automation, and metric creation. I don't have a super top secret job. I have had some clearances in the past with the DOE, but not currently required. But for some asshat to insult me for a paragraph and then try and tell me about how the government actually works, when I likely have far more experience is ridiculous.

Point made.

 

[Ophydian]

The predictions ITT echo the Russia threads.



How'd that work out for ya?

Good one Baseless Bob

 

[Fawlty]

https://www.dni.gov/files/ICIG/Documents/News/ICIG News/2019/September 30 - Statement on Processing of Whistleblower Complaints/ICIG Statement on Processing of Whistleblower Complaints.pdf

"In order to find an urgent concern “credible,” the IC IG must be in possession of reliable, first-hand information. The IC IG cannot transmit information via the ICWPA based on an employee’s second-hand knowledge of wrongdoing. This includes information received from another person, such as when a fellow employee informs you that he/she witnessed some type of wrongdoing."

When put together with the non-requirement for the whistleblower to possess first hand info, this means the IG corroborated the story. It was credible and urgent when received, and it was still considered credible and urgent when confirmed.

 

[Strychnine]

"WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump was repeatedly warned by his own staff that the Ukraine conspiracy theory he and his lawyer were pursuing was “completely debunked” long before the president pressed Ukraine this summer to investigate his Democratic rivals, a former top adviser said Sunday.

Thomas P. Bossert, who served as Trump’s first homeland security adviser, said he told the president there was no basis to the theory that Ukraine, not Russia, intervened in the 2016 election and did so on behalf of the Democrats. Speaking out for the first time, Bossert said he was “deeply disturbed” that Trump nonetheless tried to get Ukraine’s president to produce damaging information about Democrats."

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-embraced-ukraine-conspiracy-theory-120925482.html


Wow. They told him it was a bad idea... But as my dear departed Mama told me...

"A hard head makes for a soft behind."

Spoiler

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Previous Threads:
Vol 1
Vol 2

Top Lawmakers Tell Intel Community Inspector General: Come Clean On Secret Changes To Whistleblower Rules

Lawmakers in both chambers wrote to the Intelligence Community Inspector General on Monday demanding answers about why his office secretly eliminated a requirement that whistleblower complaints contain first-hand evidence.



Republican lawmakers in both the Senate and House on Monday demanded answers from the Intelligence Community Inspector General (ICIG) about secret revisions to the office’s guidance on “urgent concern” whistleblower complaints. The Federalist first reported last week that between May 2018 and August 2019, the ICIG secretly eliminated its requirement that potential whistleblowers provide only first-hand evidence of alleged wrongdoing.

In their letter to Michael Atkinson, the ICIG, Reps. Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.), Devin Nunes (R-Calif.), and Jim Jordan (R-Ohio) noted that the anti-Trump complainant offered no direct, first-hand evidence of alleged wrongdoing against President Donald Trump. Instead, the complaint is littered with gossip, hearsay, and rumor. The lawmakers specifically asked the ICIG to explain when the whistleblower guidance was revised, by whom, and for what reason.

“Based on the language on [the May 24, 2018] form, it appears that the requirement for first-hand information has been an ICIG policy regardless of how a whistleblower makes an urgent concern report,” they wrote. “Curiously the urgent disclosure form that now appears on the Office of the Director of National Intelligence website has recently changed and no longer contains this explicit first-hand information requirement.”

“[T]he timing of the removal of the first-hand information requirement raises questions about potential connections to this whistleblower’s complaint,” the lawmakers continued. “This timing, along with numerous apparent leaks of classified information about the contents of this complaint, also raise questions about potential criminality in the handling of these matters.”

The letter informs the ICIG that he must provide answers to their questions about the timing and rationale of the secret changes to the whistleblower guidance by noon on Thursday, October 3. The lawmakers told the ICIG to treat the letter as a formal demand to preserve all evidence related to the changes to the internal ICIG whistleblower rules.

Of particular note on the letter is the signature of McCarthy, the top Republican in the U.S. House. Nunes is the top Republican on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, and Jordan is the top Republican on the House Oversight Committee.

Multiple senators sent a separate letter on Monday seeking similar information from the ICIG. That letter, from Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wisc.), who chairs the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa), who chairs the Senate Finance Committee, and Sen. Mike Lee, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, asked the ICIG to provide all documentation surrounding the revisions to the whistleblower guidance previously issued by the intelligence community.

“Why did the IC IG intially require first-hand information in its May 2018 disclosure form?” the senators asked. “Why did the IC IG remove the requirement for first-hand information?”

“Please list all personnel who were involved in and approved both the May 2018 form and August 2019 versions of the form,” they wrote. “Please provide all records discussing the creation of the May 2018 form as well as the change in reporting standards found on the August 2019 form.”

The law directing the whistleblower process, called the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act (ICWPA), gives the IC IG sole authority to determine whether a particular complaint is credible.

“The Inspector General shall determine whether the complaint or information appears credible,” the 1998 law states.

As of May 2018, the IC IG declared that first-hand evidence was required for “urgent concern” complaints, which are forwarded to the relevant congressional committees if the IC IG believes them to be credible.

“FIRST-HAND INFORMATION REQUIRED,” the 2018 document declared, in bold, underlined, all caps text.

“In order to find an urgent concern ‘credible,’ the IC IG must be in possession of reliable, first-hand information,” the document noted. “The IC IG cannot transmit information via the ICWPA based on an employee’s second-hand knowledge of wrongdoing.”

“This includes information received from another person, such as when a fellow employee informs you that he/she witnessed some type of wrongdoing,” the guidelines continued. “Similarly, speculation about the existence of wrongdoing does not provide sufficient legal basis to meet the statutory requirements of the ICWPA. If you think that wrongdoing took place, but can provide nothing more than second-hand or unsubstantiated assertions, IC IG will not be able to process the complaint or information for submission as an ICWPA.”

Both the general counsel of the Director of National Intelligence (DNI) and the Department of Justice (DOJ) Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) determined that the anti-Trump complaint failed to meet the requirements for “urgent concern” complaints detailed in the underlying ICWPA statute.

“[W]e determined that the allegations did not fall within the statutory definition of an ‘urgent concern’ and that the statute did not require the complaint to be transmitted to the intelligence committees,” DNI Jason Klitenic wrote to Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) on September 30. “The present complaint does not allege misconduct within the Intelligence Community or concern an intelligence activity subject to the authority of the DNI.”

In a September 3 opinion on the matter, the DOJ OLC also found that the “urgent concern” complaint from the anti-Trump intelligence community employee was statutorily deficient.

“The complaint does not arise in connection with the operation of any U.S. government intelligence activity, and the alleged misconduct does not involve any member of the intelligence community,” DOJ lawyers determined. “Rather, the complaint arises out of a confidential diplomatic communication between the President and a foreign leader that the intelligence-community complainant received secondhand.”

“The question is whether such a complaint falls within the statutory definition of “urgent concern” that the law requires the DNI to forward to the intelligence committees,” they wrote. “We conclude that it does not.”


>>> Nice to see the Republicans aren't going to sit on their asses and not do anything. This alteration to the requirement is pure bullshit.

It doesn't seem to make sense that it has to be 1st hand knowledge to file a concern as long as the info is accurate.

Although it does seem troubling that some secretly changed the procedure on their own.

 

[K-Bag]

Trump did nothing wrong- Kenny Florian.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

@PolishHeadlock2

Did Snowden go through a legal Whistleblower channel meant to alarm Congress or did he give a bunch of classified documents to States who's foreign interests are at odds with the US?
​

Congress already knew we were spying on Americans. They (intel committees) were given regular updates. He originally gave the info to the Telegraph and wikileaks.

We can argue about how much he eventually leaked, but it started out as simply warning the American public againt the govt breaking their rights.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

What the hell are you talking about? Trump withheld aid, which was already approved by Congress and is used to defend against Russia btw, to gain a personal political favor. That is the very definition of corruption and abuse of power. And what you're asking that foreign president to do matters too, right?

This is true, but it seems that Ukraine didn't even know that it had been withheld.

Btw, and rather oddly - it was Trump's admin that started giving Ukraine military aide in the first place.

 

[MikeMcMann]

"In order to find an urgent concern “credible,” the IC IG must be in possession of reliable, first-hand information. The IC IG cannot transmit information via the ICWPA based on an employee’s second-hand knowledge of wrongdoing. This includes information received from another person, such as when a fellow employee informs you that he/she witnessed some type of wrongdoing."

When put together with the non-requirement for the whistleblower to possess first hand info, this means the IG corroborated the story. It was credible and urgent when received, and it was still considered credible and urgent when confirmed.

Yup. The ICIG went and spoke to those that the Whistle-blower has cited and confirmed their first hand accounts. Which means that potentially Congress may be able to convince them to testify as well.


------

...“All that says on the form is that the IC IG can’t validate a complaint based ONLY on hearsay. The IG didn’t do that. The IG corroborated the hearsay.”

In fact, in his August 26 letter to acting DNI Joseph Maguire, the Trump-appointed IC IG in question, Michael Atkinson, specifically stated that the whistleblower wasn’t a “direct witness” to the president’s phone call. He did say, however, that “Other information obtained during the preliminary review, however, supports the Complainant’s allegation that, among other things, during the call the President ‘sought to pressure the Ukrainian leader to take actions to help the President’s 2020 reelection bid.’”

In other words, Atkinson read the whistleblower complaint, obtained the first-hand information from witnesses to the actual call, then deemed the complaint “urgent” and “credible.”

cite

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Holy shit, that's a huge revelation. Is there anyone Trump didn't try to strong arm into investigating his political rivals?

Which political rival is this supposed to bring down? I atleast can see the argument for Ukraine being to dirty up Joe, but with Austrailia he's just asking about their foreign diplomat that spoke to the fbi.

And really it is a strange idea to think that anyone in Australia would be in the know about alleged Russian collusion with a US campaign.

 

[SBJJ]

"WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump was repeatedly warned by his own staff that the Ukraine conspiracy theory he and his lawyer were pursuing was “completely debunked” long before the president pressed Ukraine this summer to investigate his Democratic rivals, a former top adviser said Sunday.

Thomas P. Bossert, who served as Trump’s first homeland security adviser, said he told the president there was no basis to the theory that Ukraine, not Russia, intervened in the 2016 election and did so on behalf of the Democrats. Speaking out for the first time, Bossert said he was “deeply disturbed” that Trump nonetheless tried to get Ukraine’s president to produce damaging information about Democrats."

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-embraced-ukraine-conspiracy-theory-120925482.html


Wow. They told him it was a bad idea... But as my dear departed Mama told me...

"A hard head makes for a soft behind."
- Mama

Lol

Ukranian has admitted to meddling

 

[Ruprecht]

Which political rival is this supposed to bring down? I atleast can see the argument for Ukraine being to dirty up Joe, but with Austrailia he's just asking about their foreign diplomat that spoke to the fbi.

And really it is a strange idea to think that anyone in Australia would be in the know about alleged Russian collusion with a US campaign.

It's because the Mueller investigation was kicked off by Alexander Downer reporting what Papadopoulos had said to him.
Papadopoulos was of course imprisoned for lying to the FBI, and he claims Downer was a "spy" (which is laughable), that he never said they got Hilary's emails from Russia, and that it was all part of a deep state plot to remove Trump.
Apparently Trump believes that, and thinks ScoMo is going to throw Downer under the bus and say it was pressure from the US that got Downer to report the conversation as he did (he'd dismissed it at the time, but reported it when the DNC emails were released).

 

[kpt018]

Which political rival is this supposed to bring down? I atleast can see the argument for Ukraine being to dirty up Joe, but with Austrailia he's just asking about their foreign diplomat that spoke to the fbi.

And really it is a strange idea to think that anyone in Australia would be in the know about alleged Russian collusion with a US campaign.

I'm not sure that information has been released. I thought it was bizarre as well.