training martial arts separately or as a whole system?

[Marvin Covar]

i know that this probably shouldn't be posted here, but i just wanted to know what the strikers of sherdog think. would it be better to train the diff arts separately by completing a separate art first then moving on to the other (ex. muay thai, then jiujitsu then boxing) or studying them all as a whole in a no holds barred camp? thanks in advance, guys.

 

[Dominic Kihlstrand]

I think studying them all. I mean, for example, only about 80% of what you use in Boxing can be used in Kickboxing. And only 30% (The punching) of kickboxing can be used in boxing, and only like, 10% of muay thai can be used in boxing. If you study them all at the same time, and the instructor knows you are trying to work on mma, or a sport with punching and kicking, he won't teach you to bob really low, or slip incorrectly, which can mean a big kick to the nose (take my word for it )

But if your looking for a no holds barred type situation, then learn them all at the same time, because boxing can make your hands better, and if your instructor knows kickboxing and knows you want to do mma, he wont teach you to do those really deep rolls to avoid punches, or to bend your knees as much. Hope this helps you.

 

[flyingknee16]

i kinda feel that you need a good base in an art before branching out to others. i have a good base in brazilian jiu jitsu and that's why i'm focusing on striking more now.

 

[Dominic Kihlstrand]

Ohh damn I frogot about jiu jistu. But I think you should train NHB all together, because as long as your instructor has this in mind, he will only teach you things that really work, and disregard the usless or dangerous things. I mean I do Sub-Wrestling, Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, and Pankration, But before that, I did 2 years of BJJ with the Gi, and It really helped me.

WAR RAY SEFO!!

sorry...

 

[krellik]

If you want to train for mma you should train a integrated system from the begining. Just like if you want to compete in boxing you train from the begining in the most productive way to become the best boxer you can be. Same goes for wrestling and every other competive martial arts. MMA shouldnt be different.

I think in a few more years this will be the norm.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

I don't know what you mean by "completing an art". It's not a video game.

An art which you can "complete" is not worth studying.

 

[Coleman]

I think it's better to study as a whole system.

The club I goto says that its muay thai and bjj but even the instructor admits that we are a freestyle fighting club. We learn elements of different arts that work in mma and as a result our club has been very successful and has some very good fighters that are quickly moving up.

 

[Dominic Kihlstrand]

I don't know what you mean by "completing an art". It's not a video game.

An art which you can "complete" is not worth studying.

Sorry, what are you talking about? Who is talking about completeing anything?

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

Sorry, what are you talking about? Who is talking about completeing anything?

Err, have you read the first post of the thread?

 

[meng_mao]

Err, have you read the first post of the thread?

You can argue that achieving a black belt in an art is one form of completion. Even then, only a BJJ black belt holds water at all in an MMA context.

 

[Marvin Covar]

I don't know what you mean by "completing an art". It's not a video game.

An art which you can "complete" is not worth studying.

i was talking about getting a black belt or learning all the techniques you can of one martial art then moving on to the other. afterwhich you can take what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

You can argue that achieving a black belt in an art is one form of completion. Even then, only a BJJ black belt holds water at all in an MMA context.

This, more than anything else, is the plague that is destroying TMA.

Black belt means you are starting to learn. In most martial arts. It's like graduating from elementary school. The real learning is just starting. It's like having learned the alphabet and declaring that you've finished learning all about literature.

This insistence on black belt being some sort of magical level of mystic knowledge saddens me. A black belt simply means you know all the techniques and can execute them properly. How to apply those techniques in a fight, how to combine them, all of that is really stuff you only learn after you get your BB. People who quit after getting their BB deserve all the beating they get

 

[meng_mao]

This, more than anything else, is the plague that is destroying TMA.

Black belt means you are starting to learn. In most martial arts. It's like graduating from elementary school. The real learning is just starting. It's like having learned the alphabet and declaring that you've finished learning all about literature.

This insistence on black belt being some sort of magical level of mystic knowledge saddens me. A black belt simply means you know all the techniques and can execute them properly. How to apply those techniques in a fight, how to combine them, all of that is really stuff you only learn after you get your BB. People who quit after getting their BB deserve all the beating they get

In most McDojos, yes, a BB is nothing. But a BJJ BB is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

In most McDojos, yes, a BB is nothing. But a BJJ BB is nothing to sneeze at.

Well, BJJ has a different system.

But in most East Asian martial arts, a black belt is simply the starting point of your journey. Originally, there weren't even any colour belts, and black belts (and dan ranks) were used to denote proficiency.

It's not that modern McDojos destroyed the mystical killer awesome black belt ninjas, they INVENTED them. A black belt simply means you're a skilled practitioner. Not necessarily a good fighter.

 

[meng_mao]

Well, BJJ has a different system.

But in most East Asian martial arts, a black belt is simply the starting point of your journey. Originally, there weren't even any colour belts, and black belts (and dan ranks) were used to denote proficiency.

It's not that modern McDojos destroyed the mystical killer awesome black belt ninjas, they INVENTED them. A black belt simply means you're a skilled practitioner. Not necessarily a good fighter.

There is a point at which you can say you've completed an art, if you want to compete in MMA. If you study KK karate, for example. Once you've mastered its assortment of strikes, in form and in sparring, then you've captured _some_ part of the art that is useful to you in MMA. Not at all times in an MMA match will you be able to use a straight KK strike. Sometimes you will be able to use such a strike, and when that moment happens, if you can pull it off, you should be able to credit the use to your 'completion' of the art.

Of course, pursuing any art does take a lifetime of refinement. But that's way more than you need for the purposes of learning some techniques for the MMA game.

 

[aaron_mag]

Ha ha...

I guess it is no surprise that Evil Eyegouger and I agree on this one. But there is no way to really argue it. You either get it or you don't. So many people look at a black belt as some sort of goal that means expertise. Anyone that is involved in martial arts, however, knows it means you have learned the fundamentals.

Here are my thoughts on it. If MMA is your goal I would go to an MMA gym. It makes sense because it is oriented towards your goal. The reverse is true as well. I have no desire to train in MMA so when I chose my grappling school I chose one that focused on Sambo only. We don't do strikes. We don't talk about how to tie someone up to avoid strikes. We focus on submissions, escapes, positioning, etc.

That being said I have a TKD friend who has a guy trains at the team Quest gym, but is training TKD a couple times a week with him. The guy was an awesome wrestler from Iowa State (probably the best wrestling program in the states), but he really wants to increase his leg flexibility and kicks and figured TKD was a great way to do it. He is already getting his MMA training in, but has a different specific goal in mind. From what I understand he loves working on jumping kicks and has awesome cardio.

You've got to know what your specific goals are when choosing your training. I think that 'completing' an art, however, is impossible. Anything you don't use gets rusty. Even for me when I don't do my TKD for a bit I'm slow, slow, slow, slow...

 

[Sinister]

If you ask me as it currently stands "completeness" in MMA is something of an Oxymoron. I can't think of one person who can truly do it all to the point where they are consistent, fluid, and apply their skill without hesitation. These things are the reason people study combat Arts, it's mainly about establishing a base of confidence to rely on systematically applied technique. Very few MMA guys I've seen recently can finish the same way twice or have particular thorough sets of techniques they routinely apply and are successful with...the ones that DO exist are very simple and basic techniques. The sport is going to have to evolve on account of that or else you run the risk of having guys who are in-shape, confident, intelligent, and a little bit crazy being able to demolish guys who spend a lot of time in the gyms and yet don't apply shit in the ring or cage because of lack of faith in the techniques they learn.

A recent example is Rashad's second fight on TUF2. They kept going on and on about how much better the dude was than Rashad during training (I forget his name), and Matt Hughes was so utterly confident the dude could defeat Rashad standing up or on the ground, and what happened? He got his ass handed to him and didn't apply ONE BIT of what they showed him training to do really. Even after the match people were still saying he's better than Rashad...no, I'm sorry, when you kick someone's ass and do so pretty definitively then you ARE the better fighter. They kept saying he had better hands than Rashad without one shred of applied evidence to support that theory.

In summation, studying an Art thoroughly gives you more than just a set of standard techniques you can USUALLY rely on. It's supposed to establish a level of confidence and logical thought, control of emotions, and an overall sense of discipline needed to think through just about any situation. So in my opinion it's NOT a good idea to only learn what you deem useful physical aspects of an Art and then move on. It's kind of cheating the system and typically comes back to haunt a person later on as most guys who are experienced Martial Artists will tell you. Being a "dabbler" is almost never good when it comes to just about anything. Those who ARE successful at it usually got that way through many an ass-whoopin'.

 

[aaron_mag]

So in my opinion it's NOT a good idea to only learn what you deem useful physical aspects of an Art and then move on. It's kind of cheating the system and typically comes back to haunt a person later on as most guys who are experienced Martial Artists will tell you. Being a "dabbler" is almost never good when it comes to just about anything.

I think that most people can't tell what is really useful until they have been at it a long time. Most new black belts in TKD, for example, will throw the round-house exlusively. It is a good technique, fast, comes at an angle, and can go to the head or body.

The sidekick or other kicks are seen as too slow to be effective. But eventually you learn that they just need to be set up properly. So someone who only does the art to 'complete' it doesn't really understand all that goes into it. They leave with the conclusion that a sidekick is useless and then start quoting Bruce Lee and say, "Dismiss that which is useless..."

Except that they forget Bruce Lee could do it ALL. He might have said you should rarely kick to the head, but I ask you...could he kick to the head? The answer, of course, is yes. He could. Why is that? Because he understood that rarely does not mean never. Plus he saw the importance of learning a difficult skill.

Those who ARE successful at it usually got that way through many an ass-whoopin'.

Yes. Unfortunately this is true. I'm going through it all again with Sambo as well. I do an additional training session on Sundays with guys that have more experience than I do. It basically consists of me squirming on the bottom and trying to escape/get a sweep/etc. And they are always telling me, "Don't quit. We like having you come for additional training. You're a good training partner. Don't get discouraged."

And I don't really. You have to get an ass whooping at first. Plus memory of it keeps you humble even after you get better.

Furthermore you get your butt kicked even after you've been at something for awhile. We all have highs and lows. We all get out of shape. Getting a good ass whooping is sometimes just the motivation you need to stop being lazy and get back to training. Too many people view it as the worst thing in the world that can happen. A reason to 'give it all up' because you've wasted years at training at something useless'.

We train, we make adjustments, we train some more. Nothing is really wasted...

 

[Gregster]

EEG pretty much summed up my feelings on the idea of getting a black belt and "completing" an art; it just doesn't work that way. There is no "completing" and art; rather, it's an iterative journey, one that never ends. And the idea that a lot of guys who train that once they have that 1st Degree, they're The Man and can't be told anything else has been one of the factors that has caused the dilution of TMA, at least in the US.

It varies from art to art; I'd liken a 1st Dan in TKD to a high school diploma. You've mastered the basics and have a grasp of the advanced stuff, enough to move on to the higher-level, specialized curriculum.

As for BJJ black belt being "nothing to sneeze at," neither is a black belt in TKD, Judo, or Karate if they're properly trained and have actually proven they're sufficiently adept at the training to have earned the belt.

 

[meng_mao]

As for BJJ black belt being "nothing to sneeze at," neither is a black belt in TKD, Judo, or Karate if they're properly trained and have actually proven they're sufficiently adept at the training to have earned the belt.

The pedigree behind a BJJ BB is usually much stronger than that for that of some random TKD McDojo BB. Statistically, the TKD BB is likely to mean much less in terms of training and skill.