Tony Cecchine - Anyone ever roll with him?

[bjjaz]

Cool, thx for the info.

 

[newerest]

wtf hooking doesn't mean you just snap a submission on wow

 

[Ybot]

From what I read in a book about catch, Hooking is slang for catch wrestling to other wrestlers back in the day. It differentiated them from the guys who just did show moves/pro wrestling/wwf stuff or sport/folkstyle/greco/etc. A guy who could hook, knew hooking,etc

 

[Splatterbeast]

wtf hooking doesn't mean you just snap a submission on wow

Umm, Im guessing you havent seen Tony C's videos.

In the Lost Art of Hooking he demonstrates an Americana/Keylock. He claims that hooking is different than what Jiu Jitsu guys do, because they're not using it to "tap people out", they're hooking and applying it in a very explosive manner as to get a "snap" and not give the person even a chance to tap. It's meant to do "crippling damage" and not just to apply a "pain hold."

That's what Tony C said himself. Go watch.

 

[KJGould]

A hooker was a guy the carnivals kept around in case their wrestlers were made to look bad in challenge matches by a member of the audience (who might be a ringer of sorts in disguise looking to make money off of the betting going on).

Carnival promoters needed guys who could finish matches quickly to make sure The House Always Wins, if you get my drift.

Some Hookers became Policemen who were basically used to beat legit wrestlers who were a threat to the champion. The promoter would often want the most marketable champion to remain champion and having Policemen made sure the champ rarely had tough fights.

 

[rmongler]

I think you are thinking of a shooter. A hooker (I know, I know), is a cacc wrestler who uses submission techniques, hooks.

legitimate matches are shoots, but i dont think ive heard the term 'shooter' used in common parlance in this context, correct me if im wrong though.

the term hook itself was often used to differentiate between legitimate holds and show hold.

 

[KJGould]

Shooting was when someone went against the script and went into business for himself, taking a win against the opponent when he had been booked to lose.

This whole 'levels' of Catch wrestling like Shooters and Hookers seems to me to be a more modern invention. Art of Hooking isn't really an art, it is just Catch Wrestling as it was meant to be. The way Cecchine markets it as a "Destroy your opponents, win on the street etc"is just that, marketing - not that different from the mail order stuff you see in magazines promising to teach you the instakill techniques of Ninjas/Special Forces etc

That's not to say what Cecchine shows is completely illegitimate, but I think marketing Catch Wrestling as an art that can be used in a sport with pins and submissions would probably be far less scrutinised.

 

[Splatterbeast]

Shooting was when someone went against the script and went into business for himself, taking a win against the opponent when he had been booked to lose.

This whole 'levels' of Catch wrestling like Shooters and Hookers seems to me to be a more modern invention. Art of Hooking isn't really an art, it is just Catch Wrestling as it was meant to be. The way Cecchine markets it as a "Destroy your opponents, win on the street etc"is just that, marketing - not that different from the mail order stuff you see in magazines promising to teach you the instakill techniques of Ninjas/Special Forces etc

That's not to say what Cecchine shows is completely illegitimate, but I think marketing Catch Wrestling as an art that can be used in a sport with pins and submissions would probably be far less scrutinised.

He made a clear distinction between a "hook" and a "painhold" (what Jiu Jitsu guys do, he says). So a hooker must be more of a crippler than a guy who does submissions. According to Cecchine that is, which is the only place I've heard what the definition of a "hook" is. So take that for what it's worth from me, I suppose.

 

[KJGould]

Yeah, this is according to Cecchine. Also saying JJ players just use pain holds is nothing but flamebait.

A 'Hook' is the original, legitimate version of a hold from Catch Wrestling that was turned into a Show Hold in worked pro wrestling so wrestlers didn't get injured and could work more matches, making more money.

To say of another art like BJJ or even other Catch Wrestlers that they're doing show holds does nothing more than puff himself up to make him seem like an authority. If you get the tap, it works and isn't a show hold.

What Cecchine should be saying is "Here's how it's typically done, I'm going to show you some ways that can make it more efficient and more effective". He has too much Guido Meathead Macho bullshit for my liking.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Yeah, this is according to Cecchine. Also saying JJ players just use pain holds is nothing but flamebait.

A 'Hook' is the original, legitimate version of a hold from Catch Wrestling that was turned into a Show Hold in worked pro wrestling so wrestlers didn't get injured and could work more matches, making more money.

To say of another art like BJJ or even other Catch Wrestlers that they're doing show holds does nothing more than puff himself up to make him seem like an authority. If you get the tap, it works and isn't a show hold.

What Cecchine should be saying is "Here's how it's typically done, I'm going to show you some ways that can make it more efficient and more effective". He has too much Guido Meathead Macho bullshit for my liking.

I agree with this post.

I won't comment on his material because I haven't seen a lot of it. From the stuff I've seen, some of it looks kind of gimmicky, some of it looks good, and a lot of it looks like the same way I learned the technique (or one of the ways I've learned it, as there is rarely a single correct way to do something in grappling).

 

[newerest]

Umm, Im guessing you havent seen Tony C's videos.

In the Lost Art of Hooking he demonstrates an Americana/Keylock. He claims that hooking is different than what Jiu Jitsu guys do, because they're not using it to "tap people out", they're hooking and applying it in a very explosive manner as to get a "snap" and not give the person even a chance to tap. It's meant to do "crippling damage" and not just to apply a "pain hold."

That's what Tony C said himself. Go watch.

I have seen those dvds. He also doesn't just snap his training partner's limbs in the video. The chubby asian dude isn't maimed at the end of it. Stop acting like catch wrestlers maim their training partners. They give time to tap...

 

[nefti]

I have seen those dvds. He also doesn't just snap his training partner's limbs in the video. The chubby asian dude isn't maimed at the end of it. Stop acting like catch wrestlers maim their training partners. They give time to tap...

he is talking about what tony said. Did he say that?

 

[newerest]

he is talking about what tony said. Did he say that?

not exactly...posting vid one second



basically, if you tap someone out you hooked them. if you hooked someone, that doesn't necessarily mean you maimed them.

 

[Heavy Ryght]

"Hook" = genuine submission hold

"Show hold" = non legitimate submission hold

"Hooker" = any particular pro-wrestler that had working knowledge of submission holds

"Shoot" = Pro-wrestling match that is un-scripted, or not a "work"

"Worked" = Scripted/Planned

"Worked shoot" = Scripted pro-wrestling event that is ment to come off real

"Shooter" = 1. A wrestler legitametly skilled in sport wrestling (folkstyle, freestyle, greco etc.) and or submissions (hookes) 2. An wrestler who is notoriously un-cooperative.

ex. " Lost art of hooking " = " Lost art of submissions"

To take a submission hold from its basic sportive application (concession hold) to its extreme end (hook) is what is shown at certain intervals on the instructional to show how little sutteltys can change a move quite drastically.

hope this clears the air a little bit.

 

[Qtip inspector]

"Hooker" = any particular pro-wrestler that had working knowledge of submission holds

That's not what my mama taught me.....

 

[Splatterbeast]

I have seen those dvds. He also doesn't just snap his training partner's limbs in the video. The chubby asian dude isn't maimed at the end of it. Stop acting like catch wrestlers maim their training partners. They give time to tap...

Im guessing you still havent. I can't see the video you embedded here since I'm at work and I can't post YouTube videos up myself at the moment, but I'm guessing it's not the one titled "Tony Cecchine's American Catch Wrestling: Hooks vs Submission Holds (top wristlock / "keylock")", in which he goes on to say a hook is a split second, bone-fragmenting move (the equivalent to a knockout punch in boxing) whereas a submission is a jab, according to him. Look it up.

 

[Splatterbeast]

he is talking about what tony said. Did he say that?

Obviously Catch Wrestlers don't maim their training partners, but Tony says it's meant to rip an arm or a limb and destruct it instantly, not giving your opponent time to tap.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Obviously Catch Wrestlers don't maim their training partners, but Tony says it's meant to rip an arm or a limb and destruct it instantly, not giving your opponent time to tap.

How does he know it really breaks the limbs so quick like he says if he hasn't seriously injured a bunch of training partners?

It's like this kung fu practitioner I met when I was a white belt. He kept telling me how his instructor has a kick where he catches the artery in your neck between his toes and can kill you...or something like that but the point is that it was a killing blow. I said something along the lines of "Wow! How many people has he killed?!?" Cause if you haven't killed anyone with it, how do you know you can do it? Same with the bone breaking thing. Slamming on a submission hold is a tactic, rather than a technical difference.

 

[KJGould]

As I said, it's that instakill for Da Streets marketing I was talking about.

Everyone knows that if you hyper extend or rotate a joint past its natural limits, a break of bone, ligament or tendon is inevitable. There are joint breaks in other arts like FMA's so Cecchine is showing the Catch Wrestling version of that. Just in the FMA's I've seen and trained in there's none of this machismo guff we see from Cecchine. They also don't belittle other arts for not going all the way with their attacks.

 

[Splatterbeast]

@ KJ, I know, I take it the general consesus is that a hook is just another name for a submission. I was just disputing the fact that newerest claims that Tony Cecchine didn't say what he said about hooks, when in fact he did, and much more.

@Rambo, I'm not saying if he does or doesn't rip their limbs in practice, but I'm just saying what he claims the move is SUPPOSED to do, in theory or whatever. Obviously people like Josh Barnett and Sakuraba are catch wrestlers and its pretty obvious they train and drill, yet they don't walk away limping or wounded because of it. Unless of course they're the ones doing all the maiming in class which is why we don't see too many other catch guys around lol.