Throttling Randori Intensity

[Dean Hamilton]

Well, if you train half-assed, it is going to be engrained into your head halfassed and instinctively your body is going to respond half assed.

If I trained to lay off my Harai and protect uke during the fall, the I would engrain that into my system, it would become instinctive and that is how I would throw in competition or on the street.

Two things to point out... training light to work on my technique is not half assed training, I assure you that. And if you feel that training lightly would result in you performing weak in competition... then by all means train as hard as you like, good luck getting consistent training partners though. I know I can go as hard or soft as needed while training and I have no problem at all turning up the intensity when Im competing.

 

[Bubble Boy]

Two things to point out... training light to work on my technique is not half assed training, I assure you that. And if you feel that training lightly would result in you performing weak in competition... then by all means train as hard as you like, good luck getting consistent training partners though. I know I can go as hard or soft as needed while training and I have no problem at all turning up the intensity when Im competing.

Yeah, I'm not sure the link that Darkslide is trying to make with throwing people HARD in training (so much so that you begin to limit training partners) equating to good competition performance works. In fact a couple weeks ago my Judo instructor (also a judo ompetition ref)and I were talking, and he commented about how he saw very little performance difference between the "soft" judo schools and the "hard" judo schools in actual competition. My understanding was that the so called "soft" schools were the ones that focused on formal practice and technique, and the "hard" schools were the ones that focused on "all randori, all the time" and a general roughness kinda like what Darkslide discribed. My limited observation has lead me to similar conclusions.

I agree that training and intensity should be hard, and randori a safe 100% most of the time. But formal drills and throwing practice should defintely be "throttled" as our original poster implied. Otherwise people won't want to practice with you. And this is a 2 way street, not a one way boulevard.

 

[Dewey Buntler]

Train how you fight... otherwise, you're training yourself to not perform at your best.

I had a few complaints while training at the National Judo Training Facility at UL in Lafayette, Louisiana because I "threw my Harai too hard in practice". But you know what? I throw my Harai as hard as I can in training,so that when I compete, I throw it the exact same way. And that is exactly what I told them. They told me that I should throw it differently to protect Uke during the fall, which I think is rediculous. I told them to get the fuck off the mat if they couldn't handle it and I would find someone who could.

You are playing one big fucking sport I hope you know.
In judo training you protect your partner.
In competion you go balls out. There is a big difference.


If you think grappling and judo is real fighting you have a lot to learn.

 

[Moving Shadow]

I can't even believe people are trying to argue the fact that you fight how you train. It is the most obvious thing ever. If it WASN'T the case, then why the hell would we train in the first place?

we're all different so all i'll say is i'll disagree, i've found when i slow down, relax and think more then it makes me better when i do actually go balls out '100%'

 

[eljamaiquino]

Both.

If I can find the people and I have time, I will train squared off with my Uke with another 1 or 2 people holding on his belt to keep him standing as I enter for Harai. I have still been known to know 3 people down with it. If I can't find the people to do it, or people don't want to waste the time bothering, then I will just take whoever I can find that is up for it and throw them. There was a time when I was in a rotation with 3 people working as uke, but their ukemi was just not good enough to handle more than 1 or 2 throws.

When I was training at UL in Lafayette, we even had a nice crash pad, but they were bitching that I was throwing a stright driving Harai and coming down on their chests. THEY on the other hand were throwing their Harai in a way that had them rolling out and not landing on Uke at all... which is garbage for competition. You throw how you train, which means that if you train to roll out away from Uke, then that is how you're going to throw IN competition. I train to bury whoever I am playing against, and 9 times out of 10, if I hit you with Harai, you will remember it.

Obviously when I am practicng drills I will enter like 9 times and throw on 10... but that throw is 110% and chances are, unless you have someone holding you up, we're going to fall on most of those entrances. That's what happens with a straight driving Harai (Or any other throw for that matter). It's pretty much impossible to remain standing.

Its considered bad manners as well as bad technique to land on someone during practice. Its different with randori when you slip, but its REALLY bad etiquette to do it intentionally. Its one thing to throw someone at normal speed, that's how the throw is supposed to be done. I hate when people pull the throw because it messes up the timing for the breakfall because you're not falling normally. Landing on someone, especially at the larger weights, is bad mojo. i had cracked ribs because a 270lber fell on me. You really shouldn't do that. It sets up major injuries, and will bet you booted from many a training facility. Its a wonder people still train with you after you fall on them consistently...

 

[Darkslide632]

Its considered bad manners as well as bad technique to land on someone during practice. Its different with randori when you slip, but its REALLY bad etiquette to do it intentionally. Its one thing to throw someone at normal speed, that's how the throw is supposed to be done. I hate when people pull the throw because it messes up the timing for the breakfall because you're not falling normally. Landing on someone, especially at the larger weights, is bad mojo. i had cracked ribs because a 270lber fell on me. You really shouldn't do that. It sets up major injuries, and will bet you booted from many a training facility. Its a wonder people still train with you after you fall on them consistently...

So you're saying that I should practice to not land on people?

The point of practicing is muscle memory and to attain a reactive state. If I am repeatedly training to not land on someone in practice then THAT IS WHAT IS GOING TO BE ENGRAINED IN MY MUSCLE MEMORY... that's how it works folks. That is the point of practicing.

Practicing to keep from landing on someone is like practicing Juji Gatame with ukes elbow up so you don't hurt them. It's rediculous. You don't practice it that way because that is not what you want engrained into your head.

That being said, I think I see where we're having a miscommunication. I am not all for hurting people and going mental on the practice floor. However I AM all for practicing exactly how you want to perform in contest due to muscle memory, and no one will ever convince me otherwise. The problem is that my throw is a straight driving Harai, and unles syou have several people to help hold uke up, it's impossible to train it how it is throw in competition due to body positioning. When I enter for this throw, my body is at at least a 45 degree angle, and I am going to hit the mat with my head and shoulder regardless. You CAN'T practice this without throwing it full force.

You enter for it, and it is going to be a hard fall... that is all there is too it. When people are available, then we can get 2 or 3 people to hold Uke up so he doesn't have to take the fall, but unfortunately there is not always enough people available.

Landing on people might suck, but it is certainly not bad manners or bad technique. It is infact fantastic training because I will instinctively grab you by the fucking head and hammer you into the ground without thinking about it. I have less than 5 degrees of seperation between my instructor and the founder of Judo. I have trained with the coaches of Olympic champions and Olympic competitiors themselves. That is how they train, that is how I have been trained to train, and that is how I will always train others. You throw a punch just like you would in a real match, you throw an armbar just like you would if you were in a match and you throw people just like you would if you were in a match. Anything else is a waste of time and effort.

 

[Steeltwo]

i use to have the on/off switch.

but i've found that if I put the switch in the middle or the **I don't care position**, I do MUCH better. And I do not get tired nearly as fast.



as for throwing people 110%. With a crashmat, just try to not land on their face. Throw me until you are grunting from throwing so much power into it, I wouldn't care.

on the normal mat in practice, most throws you can go full force and it isn't going to hurt that much.


throws like
Morote Seoinage
kata guruma

should NOT go 100% on without a crashmat(randori excluded of course).
i know with those two throws, and if we were practicing and you went 110% on a normal mat.
the pain would come back to you.


if the other guys in class do not like you landing on their chests with the crash, maybe they should learn to post up the arm and keep you from hitting full force or maybe counter your throw by over rotating you.

my moto even in practice
if it hurts, make it stop hurting

 

[eljamaiquino]

So you're saying that I should practice to not land on people?

The point of practicing is muscle memory and to attain a reactive state. If I am repeatedly training to not land on someone in practice then THAT IS WHAT IS GOING TO BE ENGRAINED IN MY MUSCLE MEMORY... that's how it works folks. That is the point of practicing.

Practicing to keep from landing on someone is like practicing Juji Gatame with ukes elbow up so you don't hurt them. It's rediculous. You don't practice it that way because that is not what you want engrained into your head.

That being said, I think I see where we're having a miscommunication. I am not all for hurting people and going mental on the practice floor. However I AM all for practicing exactly how you want to perform in contest due to muscle memory, and no one will ever convince me otherwise. The problem is that my throw is a straight driving Harai, and unles syou have several people to help hold uke up, it's impossible to train it how it is throw in competition due to body positioning. When I enter for this throw, my body is at at least a 45 degree angle, and I am going to hit the mat with my head and shoulder regardless. You CAN'T practice this without throwing it full force.

You enter for it, and it is going to be a hard fall... that is all there is too it. When people are available, then we can get 2 or 3 people to hold Uke up so he doesn't have to take the fall, but unfortunately there is not always enough people available.

Landing on people might suck, but it is certainly not bad manners or bad technique. It is infact fantastic training because I will instinctively grab you by the fucking head and hammer you into the ground without thinking about it. I have less than 5 degrees of seperation between my instructor and the founder of Judo. I have trained with the coaches of Olympic champions and Olympic competitiors themselves. That is how they train, that is how I have been trained to train, and that is how I will always train others. You throw a punch just like you would in a real match, you throw an armbar just like you would if you were in a match and you throw people just like you would if you were in a match. Anything else is a waste of time and effort.

If you can't even keep your balance to complete the throw, you have to ask yourself what the throw has become. You've now made the throw into a sacrifice throw. I've come from the Japanese school of Judo, so I don't know if there's a difference or not, but I've also trained with national level athleets myself, including Mark Fletcher, and he sure doesn't do anything like that to his partners unless there's a crashpad there.

There's a very fine line there. yes, the point of the throw , realistically, should be to drive the person through the mat. But there's not too many ways you can practice that throw without the danger of hurting your partner. Doing it in randori is one thing, but asking someone to remain your uke while you drive them like that is a bit much. You'll lose a lot of training partners that way.

if you want to be a stickler about it, no-one is going to let you get the entry perfectly like that in competition anyways. Therefore you should try this in randori to replicate contest conditions. Practicing on a stationary uke is really not helping you all that much.

I guess if they keep letting you do that, keep on trucking, but I think you're only going to make them start avoiding you totally. And I don't blame them. Do it that way if you want to, but don't bitch when no-one wants to be uke...

 

[eljamaiquino]

i


if the other guys in class do not like you landing on their chests with the crash, maybe they should learn to post up the arm and keep you from hitting full force or maybe counter your throw by over rotating you.

my moto even in practice
if it hurts, make it stop hurting

Posting an arm up when a body lands on you is a good way to break it. I'ld more likely start putting elbows out everywhere. That would stop someone landing on you in a hurry... :icon_twis

 

[Steeltwo]

Posting an arm up when a body lands on you is a good way to break it. I'ld more likely start putting elbows out everywhere. That would stop someone landing on you in a hurry... :icon_twis

if you post your arm up and lockout the elbow then you deserve to have it broken

 

[Bubble Boy]

i use to have the on/off switch.

but i've found that if I put the switch in the middle or the **I don't care position**, I do MUCH better. And I do not get tired nearly as fast.



as for throwing people 110%. With a crashmat, just try to not land on their face. Throw me until you are grunting from throwing so much power into it, I wouldn't care.

on the normal mat in practice, most throws you can go full force and it isn't going to hurt that much.


throws like
Morote Seoinage
kata guruma

should NOT go 100% on without a crashmat(randori excluded of course).
i know with those two throws, and if we were practicing and you went 110% on a normal mat.
the pain would come back to you.

This is about what I'm thinking too.
Crash pad throwing is really the only way to get that full range of motion going. It is crucial. And it should be 100% without a doubt. You mentioned Morote Seoinage and Kata Guruma, and I'd also add any suplex (i.e. Ura Nage) type of throw should only be 100% on a crash pad, or on tatami during a demonstration or testing, or in randori.

Darkslide, I'm 90% with you on this stuff bro. It's just that I've trained with the big boys (maybe 50 lbs heavier than me for example) who would do some throw like a maki komi on me during formal no resistance practice and they'd just bury me into the mat like I'd raped their sister or something. Understand, I'll take it for that class, but the next class I'll avoid that guy for formal practice. Randori, ok, because I can do something to defend myself. Crash pad? Ok, 'cause I can walk away relatively pain free after class. And if the guy is the same size as me? No problem, because then I have the option to pay him back just as hard, something that is difficult to do against a bigger partner.

I guess there's a time and a place for everything.

I completely agree on the necessity of going through the FULL RANGE OF MOTION for your harai. I do a "drop" kata guruma / yoko otoshi kind of throw that really needs to go through the full range of motion, and it needs to happen powerfully and fast. I rarely do it in formal no resistance training without the crash pad.

Now, if Darkslide has willing partners he's good to go and the rest of us should just shut up.

Ejamaiquino: I couldn't disagree with you more about landing on people. Following throws through to the point that you're landing on people is completely exceptable in every dojo I've ever been in. In fact, it's often viewed as good judo. Again, we're talking at the right time here (randori, crash pad work, against a willing partner in formal practice, etc).

 

[Bubble Boy]

BTW Darkslide, I'd like to see your video footage. Got a link?

 

[VampireMonk]

if you train light you'll roll light?

that comes from the saying, you fight the way you train.
SURE. if your very inexperienced, clueless, or stupid.

so if I did tennis on the side, and got into a fight, I might
do an over hand smash instead of a right cross????

yeah sure.

 

[Darkslide632]

I never said if you train light you'll roll light. I said that if you train halfassed and to protect uke, then that is how you will fight. If you train to throw punches that stop 1" before your target rather than through it, then that is how you're going to throw punches. If you practice putting armbars on wrong, then that is how you're going to put them on... and if you practice throwing without landing on someone (Or whatever other position you want to end up in) then that is how you're going to throw in competition.

You're saying you shouldn't train to land on people... so tell me, how many times are you going to practice the throw without landing on your uke in a class? 25? 50? 100? And how many times are you going to practice landing on them like I do? 1? 2? 0? And you think that your body is naturally going to do the technique you've practiced a fraction of the time? Riiiiight... that makes complete sense

As far as my videos go, this is a quote from my other thread (Or you can watch a quick compilation I put together here) :

Grappling

Me failing a firemans carry on the ground
Spinning into a knee bar

Throwing
Hiza Guruma 1
Hiza Guruma 2
Soto Makikomi
Morote Seoi Nage
Uke Goshi
Salvaged Uchi Mata

Harai Goshi is my throw. Here's some clips of me throwing it.

Harai Goshi - 1
Harai Goshi - 2
Harai Goshi - 3
Harai Goshi - 4
Harai Goshi - 5

You can find the original thread here:

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=298377

 

[Sauron]

that was a sweet counter that you did on the first harai goshi vid

 

[Darkslide632]

that was a sweet counter that you did on the first harai goshi vid

When I eneter for a right sided Harai, my initial movement is to move Uke to my right (I use Hiza Guruma to do this a lot). I get a lot of wrestlers with it because I take a very high collar grip and place my right foot forward. They almost ALWAYS try to move to my right under my arm... and they almost always end up flat on their backs wondering what the hell happened.