Thoughts on the IBJJF's new rules on takedown points?

[Title Fight Productions]

Thoughts, positive move or negative?

Starting in 2013, the referee will award two points for a Take Down after the athlete who initiates the Take Down stabilizes the opponent on the ground for three (3) seconds.

Any other rule changes you like or not, feel free to bring them up.

 

[Einarr]

As someone who likes Sumi Gaeshi, Tomoe Nage and occasionally Uki Waza (especially against bent over wrestling stances) this is good for me - less chance of bad calls from referees who aren't too familiar with sutemi-waza.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

As someone who likes Sumi Gaeshi, Tomoe Nage and occasionally Uki Waza (especially against bent over wrestling stances) this is good for me - less chance of bad calls from referees who aren't too familiar with sutemi-waza.

I feel like you're speaking Japanese............oh wait.:icon_chee

 

[Discipulus]

As someone who likes Sumi Gaeshi, Tomoe Nage and occasionally Uki Waza (especially against bent over wrestling stances) this is good for me - less chance of bad calls from referees who aren't too familiar with sutemi-waza.

Care to explain how it helps specifically for sacrifice throws? I don't follow.

 

[codemonkey76]

Care to explain how it helps specifically for sacrifice throws? I don't follow.

because someone could use sumi gaeshi and because their back touches the ground an inexperienced ref, could score a takedown for the person getting thrown

 

[yodaman]

Care to explain how it helps specifically for sacrifice throws? I don't follow.

Not calling it a takedown for the other guy due to momentary bottom position is my guess.

 

[KJGould]

I would imagine the trouble lies with the definition of "stabilise".

 

[Discipulus]

I see. I couldn't imagine that happening, but I've never competed, so haven't had the chance to hate a referee for such a bad call.

So the bonus lies in the fact that you won't be called for being taken down rather than any advantage sacrifice throws present in terms of stabilizing the opponent?

Edit: madgrappler, please post in this thread. How on earth does not awarding points for a useless takedown take BJJ further from combat relevance? I ask again, if you can't hold position after taking someone down, what use was your takedown, unless you were able to hurt them with a hard slam? You posted a video of judo newaza in the other thread, including examples of throws ending in submissions, and I don't see how that goes against my point. If you take someone down and can't control them, you don't get points. If you take someone down and immediately submit them, you are unaffected by that rule whatsoever. If you take someone down with the intention of immediately submitting them and they escape because you failed to stabilize them, then you end up in an inferior position for your risk, which reflects exactly the way that same scenario would play out in an actual combat situation. Explain, please.

 

[codemonkey76]

I would imagine the trouble lies with the definition of "stabilise".

you don't have to sit their and hold, you can be active, let's say you takedown pass guard, and mount... as soon as you stabilise the mount (3 seconds) you will get 2 for TD, 3 for pass and 4 for mount.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

you don't have to sit their and hold, you can be active, let's say you takedown pass guard, and mount... as soon as you stabilise the mount (3 seconds) you will get 2 for TD, 3 for pass and 4 for mount.

This is sounding better to me.

 

[Einarr]

Care to explain how it helps specifically for sacrifice throws? I don't follow.

Your back touches the ground first with a sacrifice throw, generally. A bad ref could call it for the other guy, but the three second rule negates the possibility (provided you hit the throw, and even if you don't you could just stand up again or establish a guard within 3 seconds).

If I initiate a sacrifice throw, for example Tomoe Nage, but it gets stuffed and I end up on my back a crappy ref might call it as a takedown for the other guy (when a stuffed sacrifice throw is really no worse than pulling open guard most of the time, not at all equivalent to being thrown).

 

[Discipulus]

If I initiate a sacrifice throw, for example Tomoe Nage, but it gets stuffed and I end up on my back a crappy ref might call it as a takedown for the other guy (when a stuffed sacrifice throw is really no worse than pulling open guard most of the time, not at all equivalent to being thrown).

Gotcha!

 

[codemonkey76]

I see. I couldn't imagine that happening, but I've never competed, so haven't had the chance to hate a referee for such a bad call.

So the bonus lies in the fact that you won't be called for being taken down rather than any advantage sacrifice throws present in terms of stabilizing the opponent?

Edit: madgrappler, please post in this thread. How on earth does not awarding points for a useless takedown take BJJ further from combat relevance? I ask again, if you can't hold position after taking someone down, what use was your takedown, unless you were able to hurt them with a hard slam? You posted a video of judo newaza in the other thread, including examples of throws ending in submissions, and I don't see how that goes against my point. If you take someone down and can't control them, you don't get points. If you take someone down and immediately submit them, you are unaffected by that rule whatsoever. If you take someone down with the intention of immediately submitting them and they escape because you failed to stabilize them, then you end up in an inferior position for your risk, which reflects exactly the way that same scenario would play out in an actual combat situation. Explain, please.

Also judoka's who overthrow, will be penalized as they should, they attempt a throw and end up over-throwing and end up on their back, in Judo they would be rewarded for ippon, even though they didn't end up on top, just because their opponent's back touched the ground.

 

[KJGould]

you don't have to sit their and hold, you can be active, let's say you takedown pass guard, and mount... as soon as you stabilise the mount (3 seconds) you will get 2 for TD, 3 for pass and 4 for mount.

And stabilising a takedown on its own?

The 3 second part is fine. FILA Grappling has that rule, but define it thus:

A takedown point is awarded to any situation in which the action starts standing and finishes on the
ground and either grappler manages to maintain top position for 3 seconds.

Also a note on guard pulling:

Situations of guard pulling:

Jumping or sitting into guard from a standing position with contact and with a deliberate attempt
of a submission or reversal will not be penalized by a caution and will not award 1 point to the
opponent.


Jumping or sitting into guard from a standing position with contact and without a deliberate
attempt of a submission or reversal will not be penalized by a caution and will award 1 point to
the opponent.

So if you're going for flying subs, or actual sacrifice throws, you won't have a point scored against you. A guard pull to bring it to the mat and stall or start neutral, will.

 

[Vitamin C]

It makes sense to me. You don't get any other points until a 3-count, why not takedowns as well.

 

[Discipulus]

Also judoka's who overthrow, will be penalized as they should, they attempt a throw and end up over-throwing and end up on their back, in Judo they would be rewarded for ippon, even though they didn't end up on top, just because their opponent's back touched the ground.

Also makes sense. I remember seeing Stun Gun roll himself over after overcommitting to a throw. Didn't help him any. Probably a product of his Olympic background.

 

[KJGould]

Is it IBJJF where you have to clear your head to score a takedown too? Because of claims the bottom guy is attempting a front choke while pulling guard or something?

 

[codemonkey76]

Is it IBJJF where you have to clear your head to score a takedown too? Because of claims the bottom guy is attempting a front choke while pulling guard or something?

you can't score points while in a submission hold

 

[snoop dogg***]

you can't score points while in a submission hold

wow kidnt know that, makes sense now. at us open i swept a guy who had a kimura on me. i was confused why i didnt get the points. thanks

 

[codemonkey76]

wow kidnt know that, makes sense now. at us open i swept a guy who had a kimura on me. i was confused why i didnt get the points. thanks

I can't believe the amount of people who don't read the rules. Even coaches who have no idea, yelling at the referree's.