Thoughts on the IBJJF's new rules on takedown points?

[madgrappler]

my big problem is that I dislike how BJJ has moved from the most combat-effective art to a butt-scooting guard pulling game. I think all the rule changes have continued to move it in that direction and this will also.

For instance - I like to hit a single, slip to side control and roll into an armbar all in one motion and can hit it with a decent percentage, but when I'm worried about getting stacked and reversed I hesitate to go for it at all. Then its TD - wait - try to pass - wait - them maybe go for a sub. It emphasizes the "game" aspect and takes options to finish away.

Me no likey.

 

[madgrappler]

you don't have to sit their and hold, you can be active, let's say you takedown pass guard, and mount... as soon as you stabilise the mount (3 seconds) you will get 2 for TD, 3 for pass and 4 for mount.

but if you go for the pass and miss you don't get any points.

 

[codemonkey76]

my big problem is that I dislike how BJJ has moved from the most combat-effective art to a butt-scooting guard pulling game. I think all the rule changes have continued to move it in that direction and this will also.

For instance - I like to hit a single, slip to side control and roll into an armbar all in one motion and can hit it with a decent percentage, but when I'm worried about getting stacked and reversed I hesitate to go for it at all. Then its TD - wait - try to pass - wait - them maybe go for a sub. It emphasizes the "game" aspect and takes options to finish away.

Me no likey.

But if you fail at it and end up on the bottom, what have you gained? and why should you be rewarded for it?

 

[TerrorSherrer]

And stabilising a takedown on its own?

The 3 second part is fine. FILA Grappling has that rule, but define it thus:

A takedown point is awarded to any situation in which the action starts standing and finishes on the
ground and either grappler manages to maintain top position for 3 seconds.

Also a note on guard pulling:

Situations of guard pulling:

Jumping or sitting into guard from a standing position with contact and with a deliberate attempt
of a submission or reversal will not be penalized by a caution and will not award 1 point to the
opponent.


Jumping or sitting into guard from a standing position with contact and without a deliberate
attempt of a submission or reversal will not be penalized by a caution and will award 1 point to
the opponent.

So if you're going for flying subs, or actual sacrifice throws, you won't have a point scored against you. A guard pull to bring it to the mat and stall or start neutral, will.

whats this got to do with anything? not trying to sound rude but its far more annoying to see people circle with lapel grips for 5 minutes than to just see one pull guard

 

[madgrappler]

But if you fail at it and end up on the bottom, what have you gained? and why should you be rewarded for it?

that's exactly the reason I don't like points at all. The instant points get involved it becomes a game.

So I guess my real problem is points. And especially rules relating to points that make it more unrealistic.

And part of it is selfish, that it hinders "my" game. Especially point rules that slow things down. I think and react fast and that's an advantage. "Stabilizing" rules slow things down and that's bad for me.

 

[snoop dogg***]

I can't believe the amount of people who don't read the rules. Even coaches who have no idea, yelling at the referree's.

I read the rules its just so much shit to memorize

 

[Oliver Geddes]

For the example given, you'd also be awarded an advantage for the near takedown, (possibly) an advantage for the failed armbar, and since you had already passed to side control they wouldn't be awarded any points for reversing you so...you get one or two advantages. And are thus rewarded. No?

 

[madgrappler]

But if you fail at it and end up on the bottom, what have you gained? and why should you be rewarded for it?

I like this discussion because its making me think.

I think the problem is, I have confidence even if I wind up on bottom I'll soon be back on top. But needing to build up a point lead makes me think more about not giving up points, and go for less.

 

[esteven]

my big problem is that I dislike how BJJ has moved from the most combat-effective art to a butt-scooting guard pulling game. I think all the rule changes have continued to move it in that direction and this will also.

For instance - I like to hit a single, slip to side control and roll into an armbar all in one motion and can hit it with a decent percentage, but when I'm worried about getting stacked and reversed I hesitate to go for it at all. Then its TD - wait - try to pass - wait - them maybe go for a sub. It emphasizes the "game" aspect and takes options to finish away.

Me no likey.

NAGA has the same takedown rule, I believe. If they use the rule the same way, then you'll get all of those points as soon as you've maintained a dominant top position for 3 seconds. So, you'd get the takedown, pass their guard to side control, and then attack the sub. Once you've been on top for 3 seconds, you'll get the TD, guard pass, and side control points all at once.

Of course, they might interpret the rule differently, so I guess we'll have to see, unless someone with more detailed knowledge can clarify for us.

 

[codemonkey76]

I like this discussion because its making me think.

I think the problem is, I have confidence even if I wind up on bottom I'll soon be back on top. But needing to build up a point lead makes me think more about not giving up points, and go for less.

If you don't like points, just submit everyone and they won't affect you. The rules are designed to favor position before submission.

 

[codemonkey76]

NAGA has the same takedown rule, I believe. If they use the rule the same way, then you'll get all of those points as soon as you've maintained a dominant top position for 3 seconds. So, you'd get the takedown, pass their guard to side control, and then attack the sub. Once you've been on top for 3 seconds, you'll get the TD, guard pass, and side control points all at once.

Of course, they might interpret the rule differently, so I guess we'll have to see, unless someone with more detailed knowledge can clarify for us.

That is correct, however madgrappler is referring to a hypothetical situation of getting a takedown passing guard and going for a submission and ending up on the bottom.

 

[esteven]

That is correct, however madgrappler is referring to a hypothetical situation of getting a takedown passing guard and going for a submission and ending up on the bottom.

I was referring to his issue with "waiting" in each position for points before moving on.

 

[codemonkey76]

Yep, No need to wait, as long as your position is escalating and you eventually stabalise, you will get all your cumulative points.

 

[esteven]

I like this rule. It stops counting judo-style roll-through trows, and takedowns that don't put the player in an advantageous position. I don't see this encouraging butt-scooting at all; in fact, it seems to be a step in the opposite direction.

 

[madgrappler]

If you don't like points, just submit everyone and they won't affect you. The rules are designed to favor position before submission.

If there was no time limit I would be all about that. But with only five or even 10 minutes to work I can't be garonteed I'll have the chance. Someone playing for time can easily stall 5 or 10 minutes. (Or I can, if I think the opponent will catch me)

 

[madgrappler]

Yep, No need to wait, as long as your position is escalating and you eventually stabalise, you will get all your cumulative points.

But to be guaranteed not to lose the takedown points at most you can pass, and even that is a little bit of additional risk.

 

[Vitamin C]

I fail to see how this drastically alters anything or any single gameplan save for either wanting to trip a guy over, let him stand back up and repeat, or getting a takedown and flopping over to the bottom asap.

You should want to stay on top, no?

TOP, TOP ,TOP!

 

[madgrappler]

I fail to see how this drastically alters anything or any single gameplan save for either wanting to trip a guy over, let him stand back up and repeat, or getting a takedown and flopping over to the bottom asap.

You should want to stay on top, no?

TOP, TOP ,TOP!

Its more a continuing trend of mucking up the actual applicability of what you are doing in the gym.

 

[Vitamin C]

Its more a continuing trend of mucking up the actual applicability of what you are doing in the gym.

I still don't get how it obliterates your particular game.
You are saying you sometimes lose position because you go straight for the submission from the takedown, yeah?

 

[Knock Out Ned]

I can't believe the amount of people who don't read the rules. Even coaches who have no idea, yelling at the referree's.

I actually had one guy trying to tell me how to ref his teammate's match once. It was getting obnoxious, so I had to turn away for a moment and explain to him that he was wrong. His response was, "uhh, oh okay". Lots of people don't know the rules or think that they know the rules and actually don't.

I see no problem with this rule and don't think it is a big deal.