Social Thoughts on "Heritage" Americans/Canadians?

[rikibobby]

Displacement by TR. When he put over 230 million acres of the American West under federal protection and permanent public ownership, tribes living on those lands were moved out of the way. People consider that controversial, but the only alternative on the table was inevitable displacement by commercial interests, private development, and white settlement with the land desecrated and their access to it severed forever.

Would you rather be slapped in the face or shot in the fucking head? I've never met a Native American who believes the latter option would've been preferable. So, not only do they retain shared access today, but they have increasingly been brought into the fold of stewardship. The indigenous forest management practices of prescribed burns and selective thinning have proven to be scientifically superior. They were always better stewards.

Lol. They hadn’t invented the wheel when “colonizers” showed up.

 

[Sinister]

Lol. They hadn’t invented the wheel when “colonizers” showed up.

Yes they did. They just used them mostly for toys, pump drills, and calendar stones. There are artifacts of wheeled toys and carts that predate European campaigns in the Americas. For quick efficient travel they primarily relied on canoes, taking advantage of the vast inter-connected waterways here.

Also on a sidenote, wagoning was pretty perilous because of the terrain. Natives didnt have horses here before Europeans brought them but they adapted horse travel to the terrain much better than trying to get wagons across the Country. Wagons were notorious for breaking down and stranding travelers and leaving them vulnerable to marauding.

But yeah, keep thinking Natives were primitive savages if it makes you feel better.

 

[rikibobby]

Yes they did. They just used them mostly for toys, pump drills, and calendar stones. There are artifacts of wheeled toys and cars that predate European campaigns in the Americas. For quick efficient travel they primarily relied on canoes, taking advantage of the vast inter-connected waterways here.

Also on a sidenote, wagoning was pretty perilous because of the terrain. Natives didnt have horses here before Europeans brought them but they adapted horse travel to the terrain much better than trying to get wagons across the Country. Wagons were notorious for breaking down and stranding travelers and leaving them vulnerable to marauding.

But yeah, keep thinking Natives were primitive savages if it makes you feel better.

I see them up close daily. Clogging up the ER’s with drunk and disorderly behaviour. Utilizing the white man’s inventions quite regularly to “steward and conserve” wildlife. You know, night shooting moose from trucks with spotlights, using motorboats to get in tight on whales, netting walleye during prime spawning times while discarding the waste dead fish on shore.

Look up “smashed in head buffalo jump” in Alberta. They literally ran herds of buffalo off a cliff and made sure to kill every single one so no survivors could warn other buffalo of the slaughter. 35 or 40 feet of built up decomposed/fossilized buffalo carcasses. I’m sure they were only able to actually deal with 10 or 20 of the hundreds, hence the pile left to rot.

It’s all good though. Just don’t pretend we ruined their lives and they haven’t enjoyed the things that came with colonization.

 

[Sinister]

I see them up close daily. Clogging up the ER’s with drunk and disorderly behaviour. Utilizing the white man’s inventions quite regularly to “steward and conserve” wildlife. You know, night shooting moose from trucks with spotlights, using motorboats to get in tight on whales, netting walleye during prime spawning times while discarding the waste dead fish on shore.

Look up “smashed in head buffalo jump” in Alberta. They literally ran herds of buffalo off a cliff and made sure to kill every single one so no survivors could warn other buffalo of the slaughter. 35 or 40 feet of built up decomposed/fossilized buffalo carcasses. I’m sure they were only able to actually deal with 10 or 20 of the hundreds, hence the pile left to rot.

It’s all good though. Just don’t pretend we ruined their lives and they haven’t enjoyed the things that came with colonization.

Okay, you don't like Natives because some people do bad things. Got it. I mean I could list off all the dumb sh*t I watched Southern rednecks and hillbillies do for 25 years, but unlike you I don't attribute that to white people as a whole. I mean Hell didnt Foxworthy and his friends make millions of dollars selling white people back their own stupidity?



This doesn't change the fact that you were absolutely wrong about them not knowing about the concept of the wheel. But it is telling that you seem to have believed that a people not using the wheel for transportation where they didnt need it made them dumber. That says a lot more about you than it does about them

 

[Nizam al-Mulk]

Displacement by TR. When he put over 230 million acres of the American West under federal protection and permanent public ownership, tribes living on those lands were moved out of the way. People consider that controversial, but the only alternative on the table was inevitable displacement by commercial interests, private development, and white settlement with the land desecrated and their access to it severed forever.

Would you rather be slapped in the face or shot in the fucking head? I've never met a Native American who believes the latter option would've been preferable. So, not only do they retain shared access today, but they have increasingly been brought into the fold of stewardship. The indigenous forest management practices of prescribed burns and selective thinning have proven to be scientifically superior. They were always better stewards.

I was not born a a quote unquote Indian so i cannot know what would i have seen as options.

 

[rikibobby]

Okay, you don't like Natives because some people do bad things. Got it. I mean I could list off all the dumb sh*t I watched Southern rednecks and hillbillies do for 25 years, but unlike you I don't attribute that to white people as a whole. I mean Hell didnt Foxworthy and his friends make millions of dollars selling white people back their own stupidity?



This doesn't change the fact that you were absolutely wrong about them not knowing about the concept of the wheel. But it is telling that you seem to have believed that a people not using the wheel for transportation where they didnt need it made them dumber. That says a lot more about you than it does about them

Well, when I was in the emergency room a week and a half ago, a drunken native was trashing an ER room. Mom didn’t want to deal with him so called an ambulance to send him to daycare. The racist nurses called the cops and he won’t get the bill for the damages.

Then in the waiting room for surgery yesterday the only rude and condescending person towards the hospital staff was of course the only native there. The victim epidemic is so old.

In Canada they demand “reconciliation”. As far as I can tell, the definition of reconciliation is eat thei shit, give them money and they will never change or soften on those points, no matter the $ amount or quantity of shit we eat. It takes both quarrelling parties to figure it out. They need to come to the table and own a lot of their problems.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I see them up close daily. Clogging up the ER’s with drunk and disorderly behaviour. Utilizing the white man’s inventions quite regularly to “steward and conserve” wildlife. You know, night shooting moose from trucks with spotlights, using motorboats to get in tight on whales, netting walleye during prime spawning times while discarding the waste dead fish on shore.

Look up “smashed in head buffalo jump” in Alberta. They literally ran herds of buffalo off a cliff and made sure to kill every single one so no survivors could warn other buffalo of the slaughter. 35 or 40 feet of built up decomposed/fossilized buffalo carcasses. I’m sure they were only able to actually deal with 10 or 20 of the hundreds, hence the pile left to rot.

It’s all good though. Just don’t pretend we ruined their lives and they haven’t enjoyed the things that came with colonization.

You made a dumb comment that can be disproven with less than five minutes on Google and instead of having the humility to admit that you instead go on some weird racist rant. How pathetic.

 

[shunyata]

It was a pre-destined global superpower, but unfortunately for the Natives they didn't have the engineering or technological know-how to get the maximum out of the geography, natural resources and raw materials; nor had they come close to consolidating into anything resembling a nation-state to do so, or even adequately defend the territory. Of course, the cost of that "civilized" superior development came with the wanton, widespread destruction of landscapes, ecosystems, and biodiversity. The country required someone very god damn powerful, wielding extraordinary force to curtail the rapid pace and scale it was taking place.

"We have become great because of the lavish use of our resources...We have fallen heirs to the most glorious heritage a people ever received, and each one must do his part if we wish to show that the nation is worthy of its good fortune."





And it found him.



"Defenders of the short-sighted men who in their greed and selfishness will, if permitted, rob our country of half its charm by their reckless extermination of all useful and beautiful wild things sometimes seek to champion them by saying that 'the game belongs to the people.' So it does; and not merely to the people now alive, but to the unborn people. The greatest good for the greatest number applies to the number within the womb of time, compared to which those now alive form but an insignificant fraction. Our duty to the whole bids us to restrain an unprincipled present-day minority from wasting the heritage of these unborn generations. The movement for the conservation of all our natural resources is essentially democratic in spirit, purpose, and method."



"Malefactors of great wealth have arrogantly ignored the public welfare. Many men of large wealth have been guilty of conduct which from the moral standpoint is criminal, and their misdeeds are reprehensible, because those committing them have no excuse of want, of poverty, of weakness, or ignorance to offer as partial atonement. There will be no change in the policy we have steadily pursued, no let-up in the effort to secure the honest observance of the law; for I regard this contest as one to determine who shall rule this free country — the people, or a few ruthless and domineering men, whose wealth makes them particularly formidable because they hide behind the breastworks of corporate organization."

We need to get back to The Square Deal.

Instead we have The Business Plot 2.0.

 

[rikibobby]

You made a dumb comment that can be disproven with less than five minutes on Google and instead of having the humility to admit that you instead go on some weird racist rant. How pathetic.

The colonizers have provided many useful objects that they utilize daily, even for their “traditional harvesting practises”. Pretending we ruined their lives will simply keep the continuous loop of victim hood repeating itself.

 

[Deorum]

Perhaps this is a silly question, but why couldn't they be made protected lands and let the tribes stay as well?

It's not a silly question. I've actually thought about that myself, and it ultimately boils down to asserting full government resource control and the prevailing ideal at the time of uninhabited wilderness. You can't have that if people are permanently residing there.

TR was in favor of basic infrastructure and primitive campgrounds that would make the areas more accessible for all Americans to visit, but pretty sickened by thought of commercial development, i.e., all of the hotels, restaurants, and concessions operated inside park boundaries by private companies today. A lot of us detest it now, while also realizing that the scale of development relative to their size is pretty minimal on the whole and that the sustainable economic output they generate as massive boons to tourism and the outdoor recreation industry helps keep them off the radar from modern Republicans who would gladly sell the land off to billionaires and corporations without a second thought.

Okay, you don't like Natives because some people do bad things. Got it. I mean I could list off all the dumb sh*t I watched Southern rednecks and hillbillies do for 25 years, but unlike you I don't attribute that to white people as a whole. I mean Hell didnt Foxworthy and his friends make millions of dollars selling white people back their own stupidity?



This doesn't change the fact that you were absolutely wrong about them not knowing about the concept of the wheel. But it is telling that you seem to have believed that a people not using the wheel for transportation where they didnt need it made them dumber. That says a lot more about you than it does about them

I like them quite a bit, but I'm probably biased because I've got a handful of awesome cousins who are half-Dakota natives (component of the Great Sioux Nation). Navajos are alright too, pretty frequent interaction there because you can't reach the remote North Rim of the Grand Canyon from here without going through their territory.





Immaculate.
 


They were saving THEIR property.



Navajo Nation also gets some decent coin selling food, arts, crafts to tourists, and they have control over two of the most desirable natural attractions in the state: Antelope Canyon and Monument Valley.

 

[Sinister]

It's not a silly question. I've actually thought about that myself, and it ultimately boils down to asserting full government resource control and the prevailing ideal at the time of uninhabited wilderness. You can't have that if people are permanently residing there.

TR was in favor of basic infrastructure and primitive campgrounds that would make the areas more accessible for all Americans to visit, but pretty sickened by thought of commercial development, i.e., all of the hotels, restaurants, and concessions operated inside park boundaries by private companies today. A lot of us detest it now, while also realizing that the scale of development relative to their size is pretty minimal on the whole and that the sustainable economic output they generate as massive boons to tourism and the outdoor recreation industry helps keep them off the radar from modern Republicans who would gladly sell the land off to billionaires and corporations without a second thought.



I like them quite a bit, but I'm probably biased because I've got a handful of awesome cousins who are half-Dakota natives (component of the Great Sioux Nation). Navajos are alright too, pretty frequent interaction there because you can't reach the remote North Rim of the Grand Canyon from here without going through their territory.





Immaculate.
 


They were saving THEIR property.



Navajo Nation also gets some decent coin selling food, arts, crafts to tourists, and they have control over two of the most desirable natural attractions in the state: Antelope Canyon and Monument Valley.

I was addressing that other guy who was talking about how terrible the Natives he sees every day are. But your input is appreciated nonetheless.

I have Seminole blood. The owner of my former gym was Chemihuevi, one of my students right now is Paiute. She led a powwow style dance at my wedding where everyone participated, and I wore a Native-fashioned shirt.

 

[Deorum]

We need to get back to The Square Deal.

Instead we have The Business Plot 2.0.

Fuck yeah.

It's gonna take more than a mere platform, though.

"The President unites in himself qualities that rarely go together. Thus, he has both physical and moral courage in a degree rare in history. He can stand calm and unflinching in the path of a charging grizzly, and he can confront with equal coolness and determination the predacious corporations and money powers of the country. He unites the qualities of the man of action with those of the scholar. He unites great austerity with great good nature. He unites great sensibility with great force and willpower. He loves solitude, and he loves to be in the thick of the fight. He is doubtless the most vital man on the continent, if not on the planet, today." -- John Burroughs ("Oom John"), 1906.

The consistent, nearly perpetual dopamine dumps I got from reading Douglas Brinkley's book (Wilderness Warrior) were off the fucking wall.



President Roosevelt looked back in bafflement over why McKinley had rejected stringent wildlife protection laws. Didn’t McKinley want elk and antelope to populate the Great Plains? Was he really opposed to a moose reserve for Maine? The fact of the matter was that McKinley simply hadn’t wanted to squander political capital with powerful western senators over what he considered fringe issues, such as protecting ungulates. That indifference immediately changed with Roosevelt in power. From the get-go Pinchot, in fact, at Roosevelt’s behest, had brought into the forefront of U.S. conservation policy initiatives which the Boone and Crockett Club had formulated.

Nothing about Roosevelt’s conservationist rhetoric could have been misconstrued as give-and-take. He was telling Congress the new lay of the land. Disgusted that the United States had cut down almost 50 percent of its timber and that valuable topsoil had been washed away, Roosevelt was sending a wake-up call. He wanted Congress to save pristine American land while it still existed. Whether they were coniferous forests in the Pacific Northwest or strands of Douglas fir far older than the republic in the front range of the Rockies, forests had to be saved. His far-reaching conclusion, after much consideration, was that he wanted the western reserves vastly increased.

And the conservationist creed didn’t stop there. It would be up to the federal government—not big business—to lease lands for logging or mining, and not just near the famous destinations like Yellowstone and Yosemite. Throughout the West, the prettiest scenery not deforested or contaminated would be on the table for consideration as national parks or forest reserves. Not on his watch would such lovely Pacific Northwest ranges as the Cascades and Olympics be turned into heaping mounds of slag as in Appalachia. No Western state would go unaffected.

Roosevelt’s address was pure radical Americanism—especially the ten paragraphs dealing directly with conservation. Roosevelt was the new Delphic oracle of conservation, the political authority of the forestry movement, best-selling author, wilderness explorer, hunter, and moral advocate for nature. For most presidents, give-and-take with Congress was important. Roosevelt, however, believed in only one solution: his own.

 

[Islam Imamate]

The colonizers have provided many useful objects that they utilize daily, even for their “traditional harvesting practises”. Pretending we ruined their lives will simply keep the continuous loop of victim hood repeating itself.

Hey dummy, what's that have to do with your stupid comment about the wheel?

 

[Deorum]

Hey dummy, what's that have to do with your stupid comment about the wheel?

That was in response to my post about indigenous forest management practices, and I'm not sure what the wheel has to do with that either. They certainly knew how to create and manipulate fire as well as utilize a wide variety of tools (stone axes and celts, malls, wedges, scrapers). The primary tools of a 21st century forest technician are a Pulaski (an axe/pick combo for chopping/digging) and McCleod (rake/hoe for clearing & tamping), lol.

Anyway, it is basically beyond doubt at this point that the Euro American policy of "suppression at all costs" during most of the 20th century has resulted in degraded, less resilient forests at far higher risk of catastrophic wildfire. The only holdouts are ironically radical environmentalists (invariably leftists) who relentlessly use and abuse litigation procedures to delay or cancel plans that do not allow federal land management agencies to carry out their jobs. And since they aren't able to do their jobs, it gives the GOP a golden opportunity to attack them as incompetent, while they also try to strip funding and then say the lands need to be under private control. It's an enormous self-own, and those people are honestly by and large fucking insufferable. It's why I never describe myself as an environmentalist.

 

[Deorum]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037811272400197X

How do thinning, prescribed fire, and wildfire affect future wildfire severity? | US Forest Service Research and Development

New meta-analysis summarizes how fuel treatments and previous wildfire affect subsequent wildfire severity across different forest types and fire weather conditions.

research.fs.usda.gov

As we respond to these changing wildfire patterns, we need a better understanding of how thinning, prescribed burning, and wildfire affect future wildfire severity. The last meta-analysis to describe how forest management affects wildfire severity in the western United States occurred 10 years ago. Since then, wildfires have burned under increasingly severe fire weather conditions and scientists have documented new evidence. In response, we reviewed scientific literature for the western U.S. and completed a meta-analysis that answers three questions: (1) How much do treatments reduce wildfire severity within treated areas? (2) How do the effects vary with treatment type, treatment age, and forest type? (3) How does fire weather moderate the effects of treatments?

We found overwhelming evidence that mechanical thinning with prescribed burning, mechanical thinning with pile burning, and prescribed burning only are all effective at reducing subsequent wildfire severity. These types of treatments resulted in reductions in severity between 62 percent to 72 percent relative to untreated areas. In comparison, thinning only was less effective – underscoring the importance of treating surface fuels if reducing future wildfire severity is the management goal. Fuel treatments were effective at reducing wildfire severity across the range of forest types and fire weather conditions assessed in this study.



@Islam Imamate

So, Indigenous Forest Management Practices.

 

[rikibobby]

Hey dummy, what's that have to do with your stupid comment about the wheel?

That we brought them good things. They were still primitive.

 

[Deorum]

I was not born a a quote unquote Indian so i cannot know what would i have seen as options.

The options were either shared access with white boys or no access at all and permanent desecration of the lands by corporate entities. In retrospect, the idea of any single group of people holding exclusively access to globally unique natural wonders like the Grand Canyon or Yellowstone is utterly appalling. These aren't things that any human culture or civilization built or created. So yeah, I take that criticism as a fucking joke, to be honest.

 

[Deorum]

Any time you see a Republican grandstanding over the "inefficiency" of federal land management agencies and wondering if it has any merit, it's very important to know that they are ideologically hostile to the very idea of public lands (another gift of the Reagan Revolution) and do everything in their political power to strip said agencies of the funding and staffing necessary to carry out their jobs.

On top of that, radical (left-wing) environmental NGOs are simultaneously abusing the shit out of litigation mechanisms established through various Acts of Congress (Administrative Procedure Act, National Environmental Policy Act, Endangered Species Act) to make sure that they can't properly do their iobs, but for an entirely different reason that is wildly anti-science.

This is why I scoffed last year at Trump's limp dick executive order that was allegedly going to clear-cut hundreds of millions of American acres, lmao. Bro, we can't even cut the damn trees that desperately need to be culled before it all goes up in smoke. GTFO. Cop A Clue.

 

[Deorum]

*fare

Spoiler

I couldn't resist given how eloquent your post is other wise lol

I know, man. My grammar is all over the shop in this thread and I'm getting wrecked by the auto-"correct" on my phone with no ability to edit posts. I'll usually notice and do that before it even notes they were edited (usually within five minutes, I think). Humiliating.

 

[Brampton_Boy]

That we brought them good things. They were still primitive.

You also forgot to mention that we brought them, death, exploitation and displacement.

No shit they should be able to enjoy the wonders of modern technology - it's the least we can do after quite literally taking their homes, stealing their children and forcefully converting them to Christianity.

I have done extensive research in Canada's indigenous communities - for three years, I basically lived on reserves in remote northern communities. You know nothing about these people, their history, or just how badly we damaged their communities. Stop talking about things you don't understand.