Social Thoughts on "Heritage" Americans/Canadians?

[Deorum]

I was curious to get people's thoughts on how they feel about the concept of "Heritage American".

Noxious.

It's certainly something I would never lay claim to. The overwhelming majority of my stock (Norwegian) didn't arrive here until after the Civil War. The state that shaped my upbringing and formed a large part of my identity didn't become one until 1889, an entire century after the US Constitution had been ratified.

Check out the work of Thaddeus Stevens and John Bingham, guys buried in American History, for more on that. These are the men whose work this SCOTUS is doing everything they can to reverse.

Do It, @USA!USA!

Thaddeus Chaddeus Stevens was the perpetual thorn in Lincoln's side, the most ardent abolitionist and advocate of the 13th Amendment of anybody in the federal government. He was an architect and the primary political force for the passage of the 14th Amendment that directly overturned the worst ruling in SCOTUS history (Dred Scott vs. Sanford), defined citizenship, protected the rights of citizens, guaranteed equal protection of the laws, and established the due process clause of the Constitution for all Americans. He laid the groundwork for the 15th before he died, and if he'd have gotten his way, land would've been confiscated and redistributed to former slaves in the South. He's arguably the most transformative Congressman in the history of fucking game, an absolute collosus of American history.

As an aside: I tend to think of John F. Lacey as the Chaddeus Stevens of conservation and public lands legislation. A Union Civil War veteran who practiced law in Iowa before becoming a Congressman, he was also a member of the OG conservation organization started by Theodore Roosevelt in 1887 who just so happened to become the Chairman of the Committee on Public Lands. And oh fuck, what an almighty coup for the conservation of wildlife, protection of wilderness, and public ownership of it: Forest Reserve Act of 1891, Lacey Act of 1894, Lacey Act of 1900, Antiquities Act of 1906. He drafted all of them, and holy fuck did TR ever wield extraordinary power with the provisions in those statutes. It's almost too wonderful to be true.

 

[Sinister]

Noxious.

It's certainly something I would never lay claim to. The overwhelming majority of my stock (Norwegian) didn't arrive here until after the Civil War. The state that shaped my upbringing and formed a large part of my identity didn't become one until 1889, an entire century after the US Constitution had been ratified.



Do It, @USA!USA!

Thaddeus Chaddeus Stevens was the perpetual thorn in Lincoln's side, the most ardent abolitionist and advocate of the 13th Amendment of anybody in the federal government. He was an architect and the primary political force for the passage of the 14th Amendment that directly overturned the worst ruling in SCOTUS history (Dred Scott vs. Sanford), defined citizenship, protected the rights of citizens, guaranteed equal protection of the laws, and established the due process clause of the Constitution for all Americans. He laid the groundwork for the 15th before he died, and if he'd have gotten his way, land would've been confiscated and redistributed to former slaves in the South. He's arguably the most transformative Congressman in the history of fucking game, an absolute collosus of American history.

As an aside: I tend to think of John F. Lacey as the Chaddeus Stevens of conservation and public lands legislation. A Union Civil War veteran who practiced law in Iowa before becoming a Congressman, he was also a member of the OG conservation organization started by Theodore Roosevelt in 1887 who just so happened to become the Chairman of the Committee on Public Lands. And oh fuck, what an almighty coup for the conservation of wildlife, protection of wilderness, and public ownership of it: Forest Reserve Act of 1891, Lacey Act of 1894, Lacey Act of 1900, Antiquities Act of 1906. He drafted all of them, and holy fuck did TR ever wield extraordinary power with the provisions in those statutes. It's almost too wonderful to be true.

Now we're talking about the Murderer's Row of American politicians who have been buried under scholastic lukewarm uncontroversial nonsense. Men who believed in more than just the words, but the ideas of what the U.S. should have been. The abolitionists who didnt just want an end to the institution, but would have had a new Constititon had they had it fully the way the wanted.

Grant was one of them. Thaddeus was the next one I ever read about. Also John Bingham who was one of the authors of the Reconstruction Amendments as well. Benjamins Wade and Butler. Hannibal Hamlin. John Fremont. Henry Winter Davis. Charles Sumner. Schuyler Colfax.

THESE are the men who truly cucked the Confederacy where the Liberal Republicans wanted to grant pardons and make nice almost immediately because they wanted to pursue Empirical presence. These were the men who were adamant about the treatment of ANYONE within U.S. borders, Citizen or otherwise. These men along with plenty of female abolitionists and black citizens who leveraged their own freedom even before the National Patriots were willing to grant it are the heroes we should look up to IMHO.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Only read the first page of the thread so not sure if anyone else pointed this out. But African slaves were in the British north American colonies as early as 1619. And even earlier in the Spanish colonies in the Americas.

But the white nationalists promoting "heritage Americans" seem to conveniently forget that.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Noxious.

It's certainly something I would never lay claim to. The overwhelming majority of my stock (Norwegian) didn't arrive here until after the Civil War. The state that shaped my upbringing and formed a large part of my identity didn't become one until 1889, an entire century after the US Constitution had been ratified..

When you point that out it truly shows how dumb the idea is.

Im obviously biased towards the pro-immigrant stance as a post 60s, 2nd gen immigrant but forget people like me for a second and think about how silly it is to say that Ellis Islanders aren't real Americans.

He laid the groundwork for the 15th before he died, and if he'd have gotten his way, land would've been confiscated and redistributed to former slaves in the South.

This would've prevented many social issues relating to race that we have today imo.

 

[Sinister]

Only read the first page of the thread so not sure if anyone else pointed this out. But African slaves were in the British north American colonies as early as 1619. And even earlier in the Spanish colonies in the Americas.

But the white nationalists promoting "heritage Americans" seem to conveniently forget that.

Wait, they're supposed to acknowledge black people?

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Wait, they're supposed to acknowledge black people?

Thank you slaves

 

[Sinister]

Thank you slaves

I just showed this to my Son:

"I cant tell if this is racist or not...are they dancing for slaves? They're saying thank you! I'm pretty sure its racist."

Lolz

 

[Deorum]

Now we're talking about the Murderer's Row of American politicians who have been buried under scholastic lukewarm uncontroversial nonsense. Men who believed in more than just the words, but the ideas of what the U.S. should have been. The abolitionists who didnt just want an end to the institution, but would have had a new Constititon had they had it fully the way the wanted.

Grant was one of them. Thaddeus was the next one I ever read about. Also John Bingham who was one of the authors of the Reconstruction Amendments as well. Benjamins Wade and Butler. Hannibal Hamlin. John Fremont. Henry Winter Davis. Charles Sumner. Schuyler Colfax.

THESE are the men who truly cucked the Confederacy where the Liberal Republicans wanted to grant pardons and make nice almost immediately because they wanted to pursue Empirical presence. These were the men who were adamant about the treatment of ANYONE within U.S. borders, Citizen or otherwise. These men along with plenty of female abolitionists and black citizens who leveraged their own freedom even before the National Patriots were willing to grant it are the heroes we should look up to IMHO.

Great Man Narrative: Redux -- Without Caveats, Qualifications, or Reservations.

When you point that out it truly shows how dumb the idea is.

Im obviously biased tiwards the pro-immigrant stance as a post 60s, 2nd gen immigrant but forget people like me for a second and think about how silly it is to say that Ellis Islanders aren't real Americans.

This would've prevented many social issues relating to race that we have today imo.

It's a MAGA derived idea and line of stupidity. Of course, the competing opposite view to "Make America Great Again" is "When Was It Ever Great?" given the history of slavery, segregation, and restricted suffrage among other things. If you ask the average American what makes it great, you'll get some crass shit about "freedom" and military dominance, which I find woefully empty if not pathetic. How do they not know? And why is it great in spite of the aforementioned warts? Where do you even begin.

For starters, it's great because its Constitution is the longest surviving charter of national government still in force, and it was the first modern trailblazing republic founded on a legal separation of church and state.

It's great because it's armed with arguably the most advantageous geography of any political entity to ever exist. A continent-sized virtual island with extensive coastlines, wide-open access with the built-in security buffer of the earth's two largest oceans, more miles of interconnected navigable waterways than the rest of the world combined and the largest contiguous region of arable land with the highest degree of cropland intensity and versatility on the planet. It's great because it laid the foundation of the global conservation movement and created the most robust public lands system on the planet. It's great because it was the first nation-state to eschew the potential of commercial, financial, and material advancement to set aside land specifically for protection, preservation, and public enjoyment.

It's great because it possesses many of the most venerable cultural institutions, national laboratories, and research universities in the world; it's great because of fundamental contributions to statistical mechanics, molecular biology, quantum chemistry, quantum computing and nanotechnology. It's great because it brought aerospace and industrial high tech into existence with inventions ranging from airplanes, liquid-fueled rockets, and nuclear-powered submarines to thermonuclear weapons, integrated circuits, and the internet. It's great because it made the vast majority of advancements and breakthroughs in 20th century medicine, it's great because it has all but dominated the realms of space science and exploration to expand man's knowledge of the earth, solar system, galaxy, universe and our place within in it.

Like, are you fucking serious? lol. It's unbelievably, unequivocally, mind-bogglingly GREAT, flipping human civilization on its head multiple times over. No "Again" necessary. You recognize the flaws and work relentlessly, perpetually towards a more perfect union. From a direct YOU perspective in this time, place, and climate, you're gonna need Congress bruh, and not by a little bit.

I think I discussed this with @BFoe and @sickc0d3r a little bit prior to the election, about how everyone is so focused on the White House and Supreme Court given how much power they've consolidated, been ceded, or just outright taken in recent years. But neither has the power to amend the Constitution, which means Congress retains all power vested to it, however dormant. The branches are not actually co-equal, and the only real check on the power of Congress is how difficult and unlikely it is for the body to move in collective lockstep; it's far more often in gridlock with extremely brittle simple majorities. There will be a reckoning the day a party emerges with a two-thirds supermajority in both chambers. With the exception of Theodore Roosevelt's presidency, those are the only eras in American history that have seen truly transformative change, i.e., Second Founding (1865-1870), New Deal (1933-1945), Great Society (1964-1968).

 

[Deorum]

I have a copy of the constitution and other important American writings right in my office.

I originally read this as orifice. Christ, lol. On another note, what the fuck is Jesse Ventura doing in the projects?

 

[Andy Capp]

I originally read this as orifice. Christ, lol. On another note, what the fuck is Jesse Ventura doing in the projects?

OT: how the fuck did you, of all people, get dubs?

 

[Deorum]

OT: how the fuck did you, of all people, get dubs?

There's a thread on the front page about Trump floating the idea of canceling elections. I had a solution for that. A really violent one.

 

[Sinister]

Great Man Narrative: Redux -- Without Caveats, Qualifications, or Reservations.



It's a MAGA derived idea and line of stupidity. Of course, the competing opposite view to "Make America Great Again" is "When Was It Ever Great?" given the history of slavery, segregation, and restricted suffrage among other things. If you ask the average American what makes it great, you'll get some crass shit about "freedom" and military dominance, which I find woefully empty if not pathetic. How do they not know? And why is it great in spite of the aforementioned warts? Where do you even begin.

For starters, it's great because its Constitution is the longest surviving charter of national government still in force, and it was the first modern trailblazing republic founded on a legal separation of church and state.

It's great because it's armed with arguably the most advantageous geography of any political entity to ever exist. A continent-sized virtual island with extensive coastlines, wide-open access with the built-in security buffer of the earth's two largest oceans, more miles of interconnected navigable waterways than the rest of the world combined and the largest contiguous region of arable land with the highest degree of cropland intensity and versatility on the planet. It's great because it laid the foundation of the global conservation movement and created the most robust public lands system on the planet. It's great because it was the first nation-state to eschew the potential of commercial, financial, and material advancement to set aside land specifically for protection, preservation, and public enjoyment.

It's great because it possesses many of the most venerable cultural institutions, national laboratories, and research universities in the world; it's great because of fundamental contributions to statistical mechanics, molecular biology, quantum chemistry, quantum computing and nanotechnology. It's great because it brought aerospace and industrial high tech into existence with inventions ranging from airplanes, liquid-fueled rockets, and nuclear-powered submarines to thermonuclear weapons, integrated circuits, and the internet. It's great because it made the vast majority of advancements and breakthroughs in 20th century medicine, it's great because it has all but dominated the realms of space science and exploration to expand man's knowledge of the earth, solar system, galaxy, universe and our place within in it.

Like, are you fucking serious? lol. It's unbelievably, unequivocally, mind-bogglingly GREAT, flipping human civilization on its head multiple times over. No "Again" necessary. You recognize the flaws and work relentlessly, perpetually towards a more perfect union. From a direct YOU perspective in this time, place, and climate, you're gonna need Congress bruh, and not by a little bit.

I think I discussed this with @BFoe and @sickc0d3r a little bit prior to the election, about how everyone is so focused on the White House and Supreme Court given how much power they've consolidated, been ceded, or just outright taken in recent years. But neither has the power to amend the Constitution, which means Congress retains all power vested to it, however dormant. The branches are not actually co-equal, and the only real check on the power of Congress is how difficult and unlikely it is for the body to move in collective lockstep; it's far more often in gridlock with extremely brittle simple majorities. There will be a reckoning the day a party emerges with a two-thirds supermajority in both chambers. With the exception of Theodore Roosevelt's presidency, those are the only eras in American history that have seen truly transformative change, i.e., Second Founding (1865-1870), New Deal (1933-1945), Great Society (1964-1968).

Eh, sort of. I like the Radical Republicans but I do think there is a huge caveat:

- They still only ever succeeded in adjusting the system, not going further.

This left room for this "originalism" horsesh*t to be born. We are left debating the intentions of the Founding Fathers which also locks us into a mentality of forever adjusting what they built, and what they built was a white Ethno-State. There is no denying that. One only every significaly cha ged through armed conflict, and a concept which some people who now hold power are wanting to claw back. And I do feel the "Great Man" narrative applied to the builders of this doesnt help.

You and I can discuss the nuances of their characters, we can discuss how much of their images have been sanitized, but this discussion is not happening where it counts, which is in schools. And what's what's even further, students are not taught to be generally skeptical towards this mentality, and that's likely because it upsets hierarchical thinking. From Jesus to Washington, compliance is a must.

I've been delving into the History or revolts in the US. I'll post this in honor of PBS:



It's easy for an anti-authoritarian like me to romanticize people like this, and the Regulator Movement. But the fact is Herman Husband was both a racist and a mysoginist as the video implicates.

Its better to look at efforts like this for the collective efforts they are, rather than zeroing in on a guy like that who, while standing up for my class of people (working class) might have thought me personally inherently inferior based on skin tone.

 

[Deorum]

Eh, sort of. I like the Radical Republicans but I do think there is a huge caveat:

- They still only ever succeeded in adjusting the system, not going further.

This left room for this "originalism" horsesh*t to be born. We are left debating the intentions of the Founding Fathers which also locks us into a mentality of forever adjusting what they built, and what they built was a white Ethno-State. There is no denying that. One only every significaly cha ged through armed conflict, and a concept which some people who now hold power are wanting to claw back. And I do feel the "Great Man" narrative applied to the builders of this doesnt help.

You and I can discuss the nuances of their characters, we can discuss how much of their images have been sanitized, but this discussion is not happening where it counts, which is in schools. And what's what's even further, students are not taught to be generally skeptical towards this mentality, and that's likely because it upsets hierarchical thinking. From Jesus to Washington, compliance is a must.

I've been delving into the History or revolts in the US. I'll post this in honor of PBS:



It's easy for an anti-authoritarian like me to romanticize people like this, and the Regulator Movement. But the fact is Herman Husband was both a racist and a mysoginist as the video implicates.

Its better to look at efforts like this for the collective efforts they are, rather than zeroing in on a guy like that who, while standing up for my class of people (working class) might have thought me personally inherently inferior based on skin tone.

Of course, there are caveats. I was being flippant, in part because I knew I was going to drop a massive reply on Islam (the poster) in the same space. Humans are inherently flawed, and historical figures don't tend to fair well when presentism is applied. I have a tendency to weigh achievements against faults to reach an overall assessment, and in some cases the accomplishments or contributions are so significant and mean so much to me on a personal level that I basically don't give a fuck about the latter. That isn't the case with the Founders, fwiw.

 

[Andy Capp]

Of course, there are caveats. I was being flippant, in part because I knew I was going to drop a massive reply on Islam (the poster) in the same space. Humans are inherently flawed, and historical figures don't tend to fair well when presentism is applied. I have a tendency to weigh achievements against faults to reach an overall assessment, and in some cases the accomplishments or contributions are so significant and mean so much to me on a personal level that I basically don't give a fuck about the latter. That isn't the case with the Founders, fwiw.

*fare

Spoiler

I couldn't resist given how eloquent your post is otherwise lol

 

[Nizam al-Mulk]

Eh, sort of. I like the Radical Republicans but I do think there is a huge caveat:

- They still only ever succeeded in adjusting the system, not going further.

This left room for this "originalism" horsesh*t to be born. We are left debating the intentions of the Founding Fathers which also locks us into a mentality of forever adjusting what they built, and what they built was a white Ethno-State. There is no denying that. One only every significaly cha ged through armed conflict, and a concept which some people who now hold power are wanting to claw back. And I do feel the "Great Man" narrative applied to the builders of this doesnt help.

You and I can discuss the nuances of their characters, we can discuss how much of their images have been sanitized, but this discussion is not happening where it counts, which is in schools. And what's what's even further, students are not taught to be generally skeptical towards this mentality, and that's likely because it upsets hierarchical thinking. From Jesus to Washington, compliance is a must.

I've been delving into the History or revolts in the US. I'll post this in honor of PBS:



It's easy for an anti-authoritarian like me to romanticize people like this, and the Regulator Movement. But the fact is Herman Husband was both a racist and a mysoginist as the video implicates.

Its better to look at efforts like this for the collective efforts they are, rather than zeroing in on a guy like that who, while standing up for my class of people (working class) might have thought me personally inherently inferior based on skin tone.

What American society was radically changed without armed conflict. The civil rights act of 64, the current HR regime. social security, the increase of the income tax and its introduction, the almost complete wipeout of anyone not calling him or herself left and teaching at colleges...

It is not 1977 anymore, other narratives will be discussed no matter what the history teacher says. What curriculum would radically change their minds, do tell?

 

[Sinister]

What American society was radically changed without armed conflict. The civil rights act of 64, the current HR regime. social security, the increase of the income tax and its introduction, the almost complete wipeout of anyone not calling him or herself left and teaching at colleges...

It is not 1977 anymore, other narratives will be discussed no matter what the history teacher says. What curriculum would radically change their minds, do tell?

This thread is awash with answers to the question you asked. Your tacit dismissal of that information paired with your own disingenuous attempts at substantiating a victimization of "Southern Culture" without any direct evidence is a testament to the need for institutionalized education, as left to their own devices, people will most readily seek confirmation of their biases.

There have been a handful of Amendment changes to the original Ethno-State forming US Constitution. Formative education History isn't even going to teach the Anti-Federalist perspective and I went to HS in Virginia sitting g in buildings named after Patrick Henry. We didn't even cover the Bill of Rights, the 3/5 compromise, no meaningful debate or discussion of whether or not the Constitution was a good idea. Nah, the education system is meant for one thing as it stands, to churn out worker bees. Not to challenge if they're actually living in "the best" system or not.

 

[Nizam al-Mulk]

This thread is awash with answers to the question you asked. Your tacit dismissal of that information paired with your own disingenuous attempts at substantiating a victimization of "Southern Culture" without any direct evidence is a testament to the need for institutionalized education, as left to their own devices, people will most readily seek confirmation of their biases.

There have been a handful of Amendment changes to the original Ethno-State forming US Constitution. Formative education History isn't even going to teach the Anti-Federalist perspective and I went to HS in Virginia sitting g in buildings named after Patrick Henry. We didn't even cover the Bill of Rights, the 3/5 compromise, no meaningful debate or discussion of whether or not the Constitution was a good idea. Nah, the education system is meant for one thing as it stands, to churn out worker bees. Not to challenge if they're actually living in "the best" system or not.

Higher ed was left to its own devices and we saw all the biases that created.
In what universe will high school history will not be bare bones, do tell?

 

[Fox by the Sea]

I was curious to get people's thoughts on how they feel about the concept of "Heritage American". Is a Buddhist Chinese guy from San Francisco as American as a anglo-white church goer from Nebraska?

Not for me, a non-american.

The reasoning has to do with the concept of heroic right. Original americans, the natives, were defeated by a white european colonizing force. the faustian energy of the following development over centuries was also a white european energy.

anyone showing me some indian dude from dallas that has the us citizenship, bully for him, he's a paperwork american, he's not part of the heroic history of america.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Not for me, a non-american.

The reasoning has to do with the concept of heroic right. Original americans, the natives, were defeated by a white european colonizing force. the faustian energy of the following development over centuries was also a white european energy.

anyone showing me some indian dude from dallas that has the us citizenship, bully for him, he's a paperwork american, he's not part of the heroic history of america.

Descendants of which nationalities and/ethnic groups do you think are heirs to this "heroic right" ? All the European ones?

I'm also curious if the idea of heroic right here is something you came up with or perhaps read from somewhere else.

 

[Ares Black]

No such thing