Thing I've noticed about TMA and "purity"

With BJJ it is much easier to find out. Just ask the victim what hurt.
 
BJJ usually tends to use different names to emphasize different grips, which is why you see less debate over what a move "really" is. Nobody ever debates whether a kimura was an americana. If you use different names for objectively clear grips and positions, it tends to avoid this artificial emphasis on "purity" of particular moves within a spectrum.

It's mostly in the context of determining legality, under the rules, where you start getting debate over some of these abstract distinctions. What is "reaping," etc. Was that submission a choke or a crank. Everybody knows that in reality there is no clear answer (most chokes crank, most cranks choke), but in order to legalize reality the rules try to pick an arbitrary point that can be applied.
 
Zankou said:
BJJ usually tends to use different names to emphasize different grips, which is why you see less debate over what a move "really" is. Nobody ever debates whether a kimura was an americana .
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which is funny because of both which are called ude garami in judo...
 
Uchi Mata said:
I don't think there's a big difference between koshi guruma, uki goshi, and ogoshi. And I'm a Judo black belt. Harai has a different throwing action, so call it something different. Okay. Literally the only difference between Koshi guruma and O goshi is hand placement. Judo has too many names.
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Go to E-Judo (judoforum) and make a thread about you're point of view. That will be pretty funny.
 
futang17 said:
which is funny because of both which are called ude garami in judo...
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BJJ has way more names and classifications in newaza than Judo, and shit, they seem to be doing pretty well at getting people good on the ground fast.
 
_Glorfindel_ said:
Go to E-Judo (judoforum) and make a thread about you're point of view. That will be pretty funny.
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Those guys on E-Judo are far and away the most pedantic guys I have ever encountered, in any context, in my entire life. And given that I'm a lawyer and not exactly immune to pedantry myself, that's saying something. Some of those threads are jaw-dropping.
 
QingTian said:
BJJ has way more names and classifications in newaza than Judo, and shit, they seem to be doing pretty well at getting people good on the ground fast.
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i'm not sure where the argument is here? OP stated that some TMA's focus on the names of technique and whatnot, e.g. "it's a hip toss" and I countered that well all those figure four arms locks are called ude garami. so depends on which way you look at it, there's no escaping technical names for techniques for bjj or TMA's
 
futang17 said:
i'm not sure where the argument is here? OP stated that some TMA's focus on the names of technique and whatnot, e.g. "it's a hip toss" and I countered that well all those figure four arms locks are called ude garami. so depends on which way you look at it, there's no escaping technical names for techniques for bjj or TMA's
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I am in favor of names.
 
You need to name a concept to study it. You need to study a concept to understand it.

Then there's the reification mentionned earlier but names are necessary to learn judo.
 
Zankou said:
I have noticed "reification" is especially intense in judo ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)

... where people think that having a different name for a move is incredibly significant from a taxonomic and metaphysical perspective ... like it's just obvious that ude-garame is the same move with slight variations (kimura/americana same damn thing), but holy shit koshi guruma is totally different from o goshi. The fact that one set of variations in physical grappling is given different names, while another set of variations is not, is seen as deeply significant.

As is highly characteristic of TMAs and their DivineRevelationGuru complex, features of the art that originally were flexible, contingent, or contestable are often later rigidified and given ridiculously elaborate explanations and ex post justifications to show that the Revelation, indeed, did descend upon Jigoro Kano, and he did recite the pure words of the archangel Gabriel, and his words must be heeded. If you can't understand that, it's because you are still an infant on the path. Oh, back in the day, men were pious, now they are all heathens.

Whereas I'd say names are just names, and there's no reason to be beholden to terminology that is archaic, unhelpful, or misleading. Of course the committed Kano acolyte would charge me with crass ignorance of the Truth of the Founder, which only those of purest heart can understand.
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cliffs: judo throw
 
They also get butthurt when you say you're not interested in a a particular part of their art.

There's a guy I take semi-private eskrima lessons from and I've basically said I have no interest in learning trapping, striking, or forms. The trapping and striking are basically no different to Wing Chun garbage, and I loathe kata/forms with a passion and think it's borderline useless, but the weapons training with stick, knife and sword are very legit. He gets a little butthurt that I'm not interested in it and often tries to sell it to me.
 
Einarr said:
There's a guy I take semi-private eskrima lessons from and I've basically said I have no interest in learning trapping, striking, or forms. The trapping and striking are basically no different to Wing Chun garbage, and I loathe kata/forms with a passion and think it's borderline useless, but the weapons training with stick, knife and sword are very legit. He gets a little butthurt that I'm not interested in it and often tries to sell it to me.
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Traditionally there are no forms in escrima/arnis/kali. Just angles of attack, defenses, footwork, disarms, and some two person drills like sumbrada. Dear god tell me people are not making up escrima katas and teaching them as part of some corny system now.
 
TMAs are LARP with a merit system. They exist so out-of-shape white people can lord over gullible, out-of-shape people with delusions of combat proficiency.
 
RJ Green said:
TMAs are LARP with a merit system. They exist so out-of-shape white people can lord over gullible, out-of-shape people with delusions of combat proficiency.
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Mostly right, but some of the biggest TMA hucksters are black guys. It's not just white people.
 
Uchi Mata said:
Mostly right, but some of the biggest TMA hucksters are black guys. It's not just white people.
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I've yet to see this, but the vibe I get from tma larpers are borderline religious fanatics
 
my church of deluded fighting efficacy has a wacky asian name and i fought more imaginary people for my black belt, so it's better than yours.

i'd totally do MMA, i just don't want to have to hurt anybody. plus the (person) i'm buying all of this shit from says it's disrespectful, and (they've) got way more chi than me.
 
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seriously though people who gravitate towards TMAs need the positive reinforcement of learning SOMETHING, hence the cataloging. you've got a lot of people who are never going to apply what they're learning in anything resembling a live situation, so you give them the trappings of learning something - the pajamas, the bowing, the kata, the ranks - and that's what they focus on.

that's what they're paying for. if it's not, it's what they're buying, and it's what those places are selling. people eat that shit up. they're not paying to have their asses kicked on a nightly basis, they're paying to pretend they're kicking ass.
 
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