The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[II Muchetto II]

Its not to prove a point. Like I said, you call someone who is a recognized champion in a combat sport 'c-list' and you actually train fighters in a closely related combat sport....then u should man up and train someone to beat the guy or u keep your mouth shut.

That to me is logical and not unreasonable, training for or trying to set up such a fight by getting a guy on a Lethwei card first then trying to challenge Leduc would seem to me a win-win situation since he talks about him like he is trash and he and his fighters are way above so picking up a title in a national sport should be an easy and worthy prize.

Instead when it is raised he starts backpedalling and saying it's irrelevant, his guys are too small and a hundred excuses.



Orrs guys have won over 4-500 MMA and related combat sport bouts and picked up quite a few titles.
You or someone who trained for a short time would not be handling them, let alone easily.

Come on, you are being a little silly. What he is saying about leduc and Washington being C-class fighters, is in that both guys have fought some top fighters, but both haven't beaten any. They fall short when you get to that top top level.

Simular to someone like the UKs Jordan Watson, great fighter, world champion caliber under some organisations, but not world class. You put them up against world class competition and you notice the difference.

Why are you taking his opinion so personal? He has evidence and reasoning to back it up and it seems to cause a massive overreaction from you.

 

[Dexter]

Come on, you are being a little silly. What he is saying about leduc and Washington being C-class fighters, is in that both guys have fought some top fighters, but both haven't beaten any. They fall short when you get to that top top level.

Simular to someone like the UKs Jordan Watson, great fighter, world champion caliber under some organisations, but not world class. You put them up against world class competition and you notice the difference.

Why are you taking his opinion so personal? He has evidence and reasoning to back it up and it seems to cause a massive overreaction from you.

'Cause it's quite personal, bruh. For a long time TheMasta was bullshitting about legit arts like boxing, MT and others, and was advertising funny styles like WC and western Systema bullshitdo. We thought he at least has some mastery in said WC, but from this thread (thanks to brother Sanserif who broke him fair and square) we now know that even in WC his knowledge is questionable at best <Lmaoo>. Low level practioner with zero competition experience in combat sports, living in his fantasy world.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Its not to prove a point. Like I said, you call someone who is a recognized champion in a combat sport 'c-list' and you actually train fighters in a closely related combat sport....then u should man up and train someone to beat the guy or u keep your mouth shut.

That to me is logical and not unreasonable, training for or trying to set up such a fight by getting a guy on a Lethwei card first then trying to challenge Leduc would seem to me a win-win situation since he talks about him like he is trash and he and his fighters are way above so picking up a title in a national sport should be an easy and worthy prize.

Instead when it is raised he starts backpedalling and saying it's irrelevant, his guys are too small and a hundred excuses.



Orrs guys have won over 4-500 MMA and related combat sport bouts and picked up quite a few titles.
You or someone who trained for a short time would not be handling them, let alone easily.

That isn't how the fight game works, and you don't understand how fights are booked, I am not surprised that you don't know this. Unfortunately you think this is backpedalling and excuses, the reality is that it's just a stupid request not worth considering - and you are still stuck in the stupid TMA challenge days. If I'm ducking Leduc somehow, then by that very same logic, you are ducking training with me. The difference is all you had to do was come down and train and share some ideas - rather than build a new fighter up from scratch and then somehow book a fight with a sports celeb, to impress some fool on the internet.

If Orr's guys were a big deal, we would have heard about them beyond you.

Come on, you are being a little silly. What he is saying about leduc and Washington being C-class fighters, is in that both guys have fought some top fighters, but both haven't beaten any. They fall short when you get to that top top level.

Simular to someone like the UKs Jordan Watson, great fighter, world champion caliber under some organisations, but not world class. You put them up against world class competition and you notice the difference.

Why are you taking his opinion so personal? He has evidence and reasoning to back it up and it seems to cause a massive overreaction from you.

He's taking it so personal because he's been shown up time and time again. He's citing Seth Baczynski as a good win for Leduc. Baczynski isn't a good win in MMA, never mind a sport he'd never fought in. He's in this unique spot of ignorance, where it doesn't matter if you show him evidence, because in order to consider evidence he'd actually need to understand the sports and the relevant names.

You can explain to him that Cyrus Washington (who is better than Dave Leduc, make no mistake) fought a handful of good foreign names, and lost to them, but that means nothing to him because he doesn't actually know who any of these people are. Leduc isn't even the best fighter IN Lethwei, he's got 6 wins, 6 draws. He's just the white guy who western companies can market. The guy who is actually the best today (Tway Ma Shaung is probably the best all time) is Tun Tun Min. Interestingly, in 2018, a pushing-40 Saiyok, well past his prime and 30lbs lighter than Tun Tun Min walked into a lethwei fight and fought Tun Tun Min to a draw, had their been judges ring side TTM would have lost it too. Everyone in combat sports knows that there isn't really much competition in Lethwei. However TheMaster is not in the know with combat sports Jordan Watson is a pretty good shout, he fought guys you'd know. In Muay Thai, Leduc literally fought in Bangla and Patong Stadiums. He just fought in Phuket against fat 40 year olds. Phuket isn't where you want to be to get real competition, for various reasons.

'Cause it's quite personal, bruh. For a long time TheMasta was bullshitting about legit arts like boxing, MT and others, and was advertising funny styles like WC and western Systema bullshitdo. We thought he at least has some mastery in said WC, but from this thread (thanks to brother Sanserif who broke him fair and square) we now know that even in WC his knowledge is questionable at best <Lmaoo>. Low level practioner with zero competition experience in combat sports, living in his fantasy world.

Yup, pretty much nothing else to gain here. We may as well just let it die

 

[Sanserif]

The elbow strikes do not have a 'linear engine'. There can be rotation of the stance or rotation of the waist alone or just using the shoulder to make an arc with the elbow.

The closest you could get to an almost 'linear' elbow would be a kind of upward forward elbow with a step as demoed in the Letrit video and how some MT guys do it.
Again, no issue adding this to your arsenal as a WC fighter but it's non traditonal and not how it is done in any of forms.
12-6 downward elbows are also linear.



Which is why I said he was maybe the most senior student, since he was one of the earliest disciples from the HK period and started only a few months after Leung Sheung. Seniority is also how long and how much they trained and few can match Chu Shong Tin so he has a claim as maybe the most senior along with Leung Sheung and a few others. Either way what is important is what they show and they are all extremely close to the source.



Yes and there is also the Fak sau chop of Ip Man with him initiating striking while turning, the upper spade hand of CST while turning shown earlier, the hooking punch of biu jee etc

It's seems finally you have at least accepted that you were wrong, and WC uses not only linear force and that when turning or at times if the target is moving one should punch simultaneously to turning adding rotational power to the tendon power and creating a faster line to the target.

To characterize WC as purely linear therefore is a gross misunderstanding and oversimplification that is easily refuted by seeing the forms performed using not just linear force, but rotational and circular forces, spiralling forces, whipping forces, tendon power, triangular forces, circling steps etc

WC is indeed 'physics in motion', a system that almost fucntions like it was designed by engineers of the human body using not just physics but Chinese traditonal knowledge.
But then isn't that what martial arts was supposed to be? Efficiency.

You would no doubt like this book,since it is written for those who like to see WC, physics and even metaphysics connections.

Wing Chun - Life, Physics
https://www.wingchunbook.com/

View attachment 813423

“All of the universe is made of the same elements, and all matter within it obeys the same laws. From this foundation, Pritchard brilliantly interweaves the construction of life, philosophy, and the martial arts system that understands them best.”

If you look carefully at ip man's execution of the elbow strikes, you will see that the directionality of the elbows is linear just like how he executes his palm strikes and punches. In merely seeing upward elbows and 12-6 elbows as linear you are being deceived by the rotation of the shoulder joint - the shoulder has to rotate in order to move as ts ball and socket joint. However what is important is the vector of the elbow strike itself - instead of being driven by the rotation of the entire upper body as in the case of a muay thai elbow, it is driven instead wth the same linear triangle power train of wc.

From chinese martial custom, the length of his practice of wc over his life did not make chu shong tin the most senior ip man disciple. Your si heng doesnt stop being your si heng just because he had the misfortune of dying first. Anyway even if we look at the length of practice of wc, chu shong tin didnt continuously practice wc the longest. Chu passed away in 2014. However Lo man kam (ip man's nephew) who was a senor student of ip man is still alive afaik and has been practising and teaching wc continuously till the present day teaching in taiwan so he has already outstripped chu for the longest practice of wc. There was also another early student of ip man who recently passed away this year in hong Kong as well so again chu shong tin would have been outstripped also by that other student of ip man.

You have not read my earlier posts correctly or at all if you think I have admitted I was wrong in saying that wc only has the linear engine.i pointed out that the stance shift twist is a merely supplemental boost but the punch or elbow is still delivered by the inear engine.

 

[TheMaster]

If you look carefully at ip man's execution of the elbow strikes, you will see that the directionality of the elbows is linear just like how he executes his palm strikes and punches. In merely seeing upward elbows and 12-6 elbows as linear you are being deceived by the rotation of the shoulder joint - the shoulder has to rotate in order to move as ts ball and socket joint. However what is important is the vector of the elbow strike itself - instead of being driven by the rotation of the entire upper body as in the case of a muay thai elbow, it is driven instead wth the same linear triangle power train of wc.

You have not read my earlier posts correctly or at all if you think I have admitted I was wrong in saying that wc only has the linear engine.i pointed out that the stance shift twist is a merely supplemental boost but the punch or elbow is still delivered by the inear engine.

No it isn't.

There is rotation of the entire stance during execution of the elbows in both the second and third forms.
This is not merely supplemental but key to how power is derived and for you to suggest otherwise is fallacy.

And yes even from directly facing, a typical elbow with simply shoulder rotation will still follow a curved arc as in the descriptions given.

There are already numerous examples shown (actually unecessary since this is WC 101) disproving your cardboard version of WC, where rotational force is added to the strike as shown by Ip Man on launching a Fak Sau while turning back and CST showing the same numerous times and an upper spade hand whilst rotating.
The hook punch of Biu Jee is also primarily driven by the stance turn and as with any hook, follows a circular arc.

If you cannot understand this you are blind and there is little point discussing these points with you.

Also your attempt to divert things by talking about CST seniority is irrelevant.
He is arguably Ip Man's most senior student - which is what I had said from the beginning.
This is not only due to how early he began training starting only a few months after Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu, but the length of time and how long he spent at Ip's school and becoming the head instructor for Ip, and the level he is considered to have reached.

In fact there is a claim here although I can't verify the source, that he was the only student whom Ip Man declared had surpassed his his own skill level.

https://nimtaowingchun.com/what-is-wing-chun-kung-fu/chu-shong-tin-wing-chun/

Again, I suggest you study his demonstration of the forms and in particular change the way you practuce to include rotational forces to the linear forces of strikes where appropriate in the ways that have been very clearly and irrefutably pointed out to you and shown by Chu Shong Tin, Ip Man and others doing the forms correctly.

 

[TheMaster]

That isn't how the fight game works, and you don't understand how fights are booked, I am not surprised that you don't know this. Unfortunately you think this is backpedalling and excuses, the reality is that it's just a stupid request not worth considering - and you are still stuck in the stupid TMA challenge days. If I'm ducking Leduc somehow, then by that very same logic, you are ducking training with me. The difference is all you had to do was come down and train and share some ideas - rather than build a new fighter up from scratch and then somehow book a fight with a sports celeb, to impress some fool on the internet.

You can explain to him that Cyrus Washington (who is better than Dave Leduc, make no mistake) fought a handful of good foreign names, and lost to them, but that means nothing to him because he doesn't actually know who any of these people are. Leduc isn't even the best fighter IN Lethwei, he's got 6 wins, 6 draws. He's just the white guy who western companies can market. The guy who is actually the best today (Tway Ma Shaung is probably the best all time) is Tun Tun Min. Interestingly, in 2018, a pushing-40 Saiyok, well past his prime and 30lbs lighter than Tun Tun Min walked into a lethwei fight and fought Tun Tun Min to a draw, had their been judges ring side TTM would have lost it too. Everyone in combat sports knows that there isn't really much competition in Lethwei. However TheMaster is not in the know with combat sports Jordan Watson is a pretty good shout, he fought guys you'd know. In Muay Thai, Leduc literally fought in Bangla and Patong Stadiums. He just fought in Phuket against fat 40 year olds. Phuket isn't where you want to be to get real competition, for various reasons.

I thought you already train MT fighters? So why would it require building a new fighter from scratch unless all your guys are now suddenly too small to challenge a guy like the 'low level Leduc'?

And I thought you said Dave Leduc was a nobody who is unknown and no one cares about except on internet forums, but now you've changed your tune on that as well and are calling him a 'sports celebrity' now?


You can consider me ducking to come train with you but I didnt call you or your guys 'garbage d-list' or say what you were doing was trash. From what I have seen of the videos u made they are pretty good with good explanations.
If I had called u a garbage nobody who trains guys to fight cab drivers, and u called me out to come train or spar and I tried making excuses then you could rightly say I was ducking you.
This is basically what u are doing with the Leduc situation.

As it is, although it would no doubt be interesting and helpful to train and exchange ideas I have no desire to do so in an environment where sherdog dimwits who are disrespectful are in any way in the know about it. And from your recent posts,that would include u also. Therefore my intentions will be much better served finding other schools to connect up and train with which will be done in due course.

If you really wanted it, I don't see any big barrier to you training one of your guys or someone from a camp you know to compete on a Lethwei card with the org that promoted Leducs recent fight. It's about wanting it and making a few connections and communications.

And if he did well and could compete,then there could be a path to getting a fight with Leduc eventually.

To me this would be a golden opportunity since you rate Leduc so lowly, and you say he is only there due to a lack of big sized western competition. So for the reasons mentioned I don't see what would really hold you back since you already have a camp and are lippy about the level you see in Lethwei. Then why not do something about it and try to 'upgrade' the level of the competition especially since the skills are mostly cross transferable to MT so there shouldn't be anything to lose and they are making a push in the sport right now.

 

[Woldog]

Just saying, but even Kung Fu Joe didn't use WC.

 

[TheMaster]

This is wrong.

Win or lose you will get injured in a fight, specifically a BK one, regardless of what martial art you use. A WC, or cross trained WC is not going to fair any better

High level boxers do not get beat by low level bk fighters. Do you have any evidence to back up this claim? Simply put, high level does not usually lose to low level

Most of the fights in BK they both get busted up bad using modern gloved western boxing as the primary style trained in altho often it ends up just brawling.
The well known example is Lobov vs Mallinagi. Yes we know Malinaggi has no power and brittle hands. But the point is he got busted up and cut pretty bad against a brawler levels and levels below him ,mainly in clinch and in close.

Also I posted another example of a pro boxer getting dropped in BK against a fairly low level MMA guy altho he got the ko later. But they were both swinging and could either have gone down.
The point is there is no reason to expect a style adapted to large gloves will work ideally in BK which is what we see. It needs to be adapted alot again and changed.

My belief is the more defensive focussed counter styles likes WC, old school BK style and maybe Soviet style boxing can translate or be adapted better.
Looking at the amount of damage guys have taken in BK mainly with (gloved) boxing as the primary style indicates it is not a great fit.

I agree that in a fight one should expect to take damage . But we should be aiming for a higher standard of effectiveness and efficiency and guys consistently having their faces busted up when they win means it has not been seen in recent BK orgs so far.

 

[SandisLL]

Again old mantra with Paulie.
Paulie had lost fight vs Eggington ( lost fight via KO ) and had been retired.
Then after 2 years some bareknuckle stuff.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulie_Malignaggi

Doesn't looks elite boxer in prime if gentleman didn't had fought 2 years after loss via KO + Paulie is 39?
Lobov is 34 and had lost last 3 fights in mma via decision.
It is very big difference.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

From what I have seen of the videos u made they are pretty good with good explanations.

I appreciate you're trying to be polite here, but I don't know what videos you're referring to. You may well be confusing me with @shincheckin. There are videos of my guys unlisted on YouTube, but I keep them private and for archival purposes, client confidentiality.

As it is, although it would no doubt be interesting and helpful to train and exchange ideas I have no desire to do so in an environment where sherdog dimwits who are disrespectful are in any way in the know about it. And from your recent posts,that would include u also.

You receive what you give.

I will admit I've got frustrated and rude with you, because I felt you were doing the same to me. So if I have genuinely bothered you with what I've said, then I do apologise, and you're free to accept it or not. I was giving back to you, what I felt you were giving to me, and to other posters.

If you ever change your mind and you want to reach out, then feel free too and I'm happy to leave silly internet feuds behind in pursuit of a better goal.

And if it was embarrassing for you for whatever reason, Sherdog wouldn't have to know with it, because as @Valhoven as my witness now, he'd delete any posts like that, because they could be considered doxxing.

I think this thread is exhausted now though.

 

[shincheckin]

Most of the fights in BK they both get busted up bad using modern gloved western boxing as the primary style trained in altho often it ends up just brawling.
The well known example is Lobov vs Mallinagi. Yes we know Malinaggi has no power and brittle hands. But the point is he got busted up and cut pretty bad against a brawler levels and levels below him ,mainly in clinch and in close.

Also I posted another example of a pro boxer getting dropped in BK against a fairly low level MMA guy altho he got the ko later. But they were both swinging and could either have gone down.
The point is there is no reason to expect a style adapted to large gloves will work ideally in BK which is what we see. It needs to be adapted alot again and changed.

My belief is the more defensive focussed counter styles likes WC, old school BK style and maybe Soviet style boxing can translate or be adapted better.
Looking at the amount of damage guys have taken in BK mainly with (gloved) boxing as the primary style indicates it is not a great fit.

I agree that in a fight one should expect to take damage . But we should be aiming for a higher standard of effectiveness and efficiency and guys consistently having their faces busted up when they win means it has not been seen in recent BK orgs so far.

i asked for evidence and you gave it.

However I wouldnt say that artem lobov is low level BK. The guy has 30 fights in the UFC, compared to malignagi 40+ boxing fights. Paulie was also old washed up and retired.

You speak of great differenced in gloved boxing vs BK boxing. Can you please show me the different between the two because I dont see any difference other than the gloves are missing.

No gloves is not going to drastically change the game.

Just like MT without shinpads, is not a major change from fighting with shinpads..........the techniques are all the same. the pads are just gone.

 

[SandisLL]

Paulie was 2 years in retirement and he then ended career cos had been KOed.
Lobov most likely had defeated him even in standart sport boxing fight with gloves.

 

[TheMaster]

I appreciate you're trying to be polite here, but I don't know what videos you're referring to. You may well be confusing me with @shincheckin. There are videos of my guys unlisted on YouTube, but I keep them private and for archival purposes, client confidentiality.



You receive what you give.

I will admit I've got frustrated and rude with you, because I felt you were doing the same to me. So if I have genuinely bothered you with what I've said, then I do apologise, and you're free to accept it or not. I was giving back to you, what I felt you were giving to me, and to other posters.

If you ever change your mind and you want to reach out, then feel free too and I'm happy to leave silly internet feuds behind in pursuit of a better goal.

And if it was embarrassing for you for whatever reason, Sherdog wouldn't have to know with it, because as @Valhoven as my witness now, he'd delete any posts like that, because they could be considered doxxing.

I think this thread is exhausted now though.

Ok we can leave it that.

Still I wonder- is there really no one in the entire western Muay Thai, kickboxing, BK fighting or MMA world willing to come in and give a challenge to Dave Leduc so he doesn't have to in your words "fight 40 year olds and undersized tuk tuk drivers?"

Maybe it can become a thing for this to happen in the mma and Muay Thai community.
We see a few decent ex MMA guys enter BK. The same could happen in Lethwei and actually it would be good for the sport to grow as it is a unique format with alot of potential.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Ok we can leave it that.

Still I wonder- is there really no one in the entire western Muay Thai, kickboxing, BK fighting or MMA world willing to come in and give a challenge to Dave Leduc so he doesn't have to in your words "fight 40 year olds and undersized tuk tuk drivers?"

Maybe it can become a thing for this to happen in the mma and Muay Thai community.
We see a few decent ex MMA guys enter BK. The same could happen in Lethwei and actually it would be good for the sport to grow as it is a unique format with alot of potential.

To give you a more measured response:

The type of man who is big enough to go toe to toe with Leduc, doesn't really have a financial incentive too. Leduc is already in a very talent thin division to start with, that's why his muay thai career was just him fighting smaller men, the one time I saw him against someone his own stature he lost. Now, I don't begrudge him losing, that's the fight game.

But if you're a middleweight, the real competition for you use in kickboxing, rather than muay thai. That's also where the money is. I could of course be wrong, and Leduc could beat them by virtue of being more accustom to the rules of Lethwei, but I certainly wouldn't fancy his chances against Simon Marcus or Cosmo Alexandre, and just plain wouldn't give him a chance in hell were he against Artem Levin. Yassine Boughanem is coming down from heavyweight now, and god knows what weight he'll be after he sheds all that fat - but I've seen Yassine ragdoll Daniel Sam, while literally just being a fat guy with good technique.

Saiyok is a smaller muay thai fighter (he's 150 now, but is overweight) and he in his mid 30s fought Tun Tun Min (best Lethwei fighter now since Tway retired) to a draw - and Saiyok was clearly the better man that fight. Then later he randomly fought Yi Long and KO'd him for some reason.

I think Leduc knows this is true, because whenever you hear about Leduc, and Muay Thai, you would think it would be insecure MT guys saying Lethwei is just shit - but that's not really true, you only hear about Leduc when he's calling someone else out to fight in his ruleset, like Rory MacDonald, or saying how Muay Thai fighters don't do well in Lethwei (I don't think he see's the irony of this statement, given that he literally walked in and won the Golden Belt).

Myanmar at current doesn't have the economy to support a deep talent pool of fighters. Cyrus Washington was the first foreigner to fight in Lethwei, followed by Leduc and they are at the very least able to pick up a few wins amongst the draws. That's very different from Muay Thai were it took decades for the westerners to be competitive with the best Thais - and even then those western fighters are a rarity.

With the BLC finding its feet right now, I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if Myanmar gets overtaken by the western world within it's own sport. I don't think it will ever be popular outside of Myanmar (it's not THAT popular IN Myanmar) - but it just doesn't have the talent pool right now.

 

[j123]

Saiyok is a smaller muay thai fighter (he's 150 now, but is overweight)

reported for fat shaming!

 

[Woldog]

reported for fat shaming!

Reported for being a snitch.

 

[j123]

Reported for being a snitch.

reported for snitching

 

[Sanserif]

No it isn't.

There is rotation of the entire stance during execution of the elbows in both the second and third forms.
This is not merely supplemental but key to how power is derived and for you to suggest otherwise is fallacy.

And yes even from directly facing, a typical elbow with simply shoulder rotation will still follow a curved arc as in the descriptions given.

There are already numerous examples shown (actually unecessary since this is WC 101) disproving your cardboard version of WC, where rotational force is added to the strike as shown by Ip Man on launching a Fak Sau while turning back and CST showing the same numerous times and an upper spade hand whilst rotating.
The hook punch of Biu Jee is also primarily driven by the stance turn and as with any hook, follows a circular arc.

If you cannot understand this you are blind and there is little point discussing these points with you.

Also your attempt to divert things by talking about CST seniority is irrelevant.
He is arguably Ip Man's most senior student - which is what I had said from the beginning.
This is not only due to how early he began training starting only a few months after Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu, but the length of time and how long he spent at Ip's school and becoming the head instructor for Ip, and the level he is considered to have reached.

In fact there is a claim here although I can't verify the source, that he was the only student whom Ip Man declared had surpassed his his own skill level.

https://nimtaowingchun.com/what-is-wing-chun-kung-fu/chu-shong-tin-wing-chun/

Again, I suggest you study his demonstration of the forms and in particular change the way you practuce to include rotational forces to the linear forces of strikes where appropriate in the ways that have been very clearly and irrefutably pointed out to you and shown by Chu Shong Tin, Ip Man and others doing the forms correctly.

The Master, u r a realy tenacious guy but it is pointless to be so persevering when you are wrong.
There is clearly zero shoulder and hip turn. The front remains facing forward without any change whatsoever as the elbow is thrown in an entirely linear fashion. A muay thai exponent would have thrown the elbow at that angle with full hip and shoulder twist with the front of the body goig from facing the opponent to perpendicular to the opponent.

As for the bil jee so called hook - it is not really a hook actually. See this demo by chu himself do u see that he never shifted stance and so stance shifting and turning doesnt power that move? Instead he is able to move that young man because it is a linear direction coming from the side. There is a tiny sideways movement but that is probably difficipt to avoid as the shoulder is a ball joint.

It is ironic you now reference chu since he always stressed on mastering the forums at the route to proficiency which is what I was proposing to you. It is without doubt that chu was a real master of internal wc and had great skills but to say he was the most skilful ever is not a judgement that is realisitc. In any event I have had first hand experience of witnessing and feeling the proficiency of wing chun internal mastery of some whom u may not have come across.

I am not distracting from anything - it is you who refuses acknowledge the simple and undeniable fact that u were clearly wrong when u said chu was maybe ip man most senior student. He is clearly not by his own admission on the record. He admits that Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu are his seniors. So just accept it instead of trying to change the fabric of reality itself and trying to make other arguments like he is the most long lasting exponent (I debunked that in my last post) and now supposedly he is even more skilled than ip man himself (irrelevant to the original statement by you of seniority but wrong nonetheless) rather than admitting that u just got it wrong. It's ok dude - your world wont end if you admit you were wrong.

 

[TheMaster]

My stance is that this idea that Asian martial arts have to remain the way they were 50+ years ago is stupid, and I don't see a problem with something looking for ways to modernize WC training while attempting to retain the core concepts.

No style will ever look as pretty as a well performed kata/form, so if that's what you expect from a 'traditional' martial art when used in a fight you have absurd and unrealistic expectations, which is what you seem to be saying..."that doesn't look like the wing chun I see in Ip Man movies so it's obviously not wing chun." Seems to be what your argument boils down to in a simplified way.

Thompson's MMA resembles his kickboxing which resembles his karate, therefore his MMA resembles his karate.

Yes, that has been one of the flaws in their whole argument.

"Boxing works in MMA, WC doesn't without being adapted".

- What about clinch? "It's ok we can do Greco and MuayThai"
- What about elbows? "It's ok, we can add MuayThai"
-What about against grappling and takedowns? "It's ok, we can train wrestling and change the stance"
- What about with the small gloves or BK? "It's ok, we can modify the guard, angles and punching"

"But it's all basically still pure boxing".


And if they see a WC fighter turn his waist when he throws a punch - "that's not WC, you're having to change the whole mechanics as per the laws of motion, it's not wingchun anymore. You can only do a 90 degree centreline punch or I'm not counting it"
<Lmaoo>

The Master, u r a realy tenacious guy but it is pointless to be so persevering when you are wrong. I just need to point you to one of the elbows thrown by ip man in the form demo video - just look at ip man video at 2:25-2:30.



There is clearly zero shoulder and hip turn. His front remains facing forward without any change whatsoever as the elbow is thrown in an entirely linear fashion. A muay thai exponent would have thrown the elbow at that angle with full hip and shoulder twist with the front of the body goig from facing the opponent to perpendicular to the opponent.

I am not distracting from anything- it is you who refuses acknowledge the simple and undeniable fact that u r wrong when u said chu was maybe ip man most senior student. He is clearly not by his own admission on the record. He admits that Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu are his seniors. So just accept it instead of trying it change the fabric of reality itself and trying to make other arguments like he is the most long lasting exponent (I debunked that it my last post) and now supposedly he is even more skilled than ip man himself (irrelevant to original statement by you of seniority but wrong nonetheless) rather than admit that u just got it wrong. It's ok dude - your world wont end if you admit you were wrong.

This is getting tiresome and I'm actually seriously wondering now whether you ever even trained wingchun or just bought a few books and then did some private lessons with someone. You are not talking like a practicioner of the art . I actually now have doubts you have ever really trained.
What was your lineage of WC?

As well as incorrectly saying Ip Man was doing biu jee instead of Chum Kiu which was a major flag, you are now calling a forward bong sau deflecting arm "an elbow" at 2:25.
No Wing Chun practicioner would do this.
And then you are trying to call the incorrectly labelled bong sau as an example of an 'elbow', to supposedly prove that punches and other strikes can't be done with rotation in WC despite already being shown numerous examples they can.

So tell me, what is your game exactly? To be an irritating argumentative nerd for the sake of it without even having much training in wingchun which is obvious now you do not?
I'm not bothering with you. However for the sake of others reading and to not let misinformation spread about WC I will correct it here.

Pai Jarn or 'hacking elbows' of the second wingchun form here shown by Ip Man at 2:58, using the stance rotation as well as 'sinking' to generate big power.


And an explanation of application


Also another type of elbow in biu jee the third form, using again rotation of stance or waist and a downward strike.



The wingchun hook punch. Overlooked and underused. So no it's not 'boxing' if u see a WC guy throwing hooks (at least not 'western boxing')

 

[TheMaster]

As for the bil jee so called hook - it is not really a hook actually. See this demo by chu himself do u see that he never shifted stance and so stance shifting and turning doesnt power that move? Instead he is able to move that young man because it is a linear direction coming from the side.

Lol. No, it isn't linear. While true that it is different from a typical boxing hook, the rotation of the stance and motion combined ensures it follows a curved line which is the most powerful and direct way to the target from that position. It is always trained with a stance turn in the forms as shown.

Alot of WC movements can be broken down also or combined in different ways as well- but grasp the basics first or you will confuse yourself further.