The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[SandisLL]

another knife might be a lot preventive too.
Nice story: someone threats with knife and when someone comes out of kitchen with very large and sharp knife this guy disappears quickly.......... run away. Very large and polished kitchen knife might be easier to see than CCW if dubmass is drunk or on pills.

 

[SandisLL]

here CCWs usually are matted to not gave light reflection from them. money transfer guards etc like tasks.
rarerly nickeled etc. Some 10 inch kitchen knife if compare with this is easily visible and observable.

story simple: small pub, one dumbass threats to stab and shows up 6 inch knife.
then large size guy shows him 10 inch kitchen knife and guy disappears from pub quickly.
distance was approx 15 ft between them.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

if it is possible then combat sambo not sport sambo.

I so far haven't encountered a place that doesn't teach both

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Sambo would be more versatile than most arts as it has punches kicks and grappling. However it may not be as readily available in many other parts of the world. A more widely available art that has unarmed fighting application in most self defence scenarios and has proven effectiveness as well as the ability to be very mobile and thus more useful against multiple opponents is boxing.

Even in the video for failed fence, a person with boxing background would be able to be much more effective with those techniques that are taught there.

For sure, but on the upside Judo is very easily available.

on the failed fence, while I do agree, I also think a boxer would be less likely to use the failed fence. I think the idea is to at least try to de-escalate first, which I think should be first priority. Bobby Knuckles agrees

Do agree tho

 

[TheMaster]

@TheMaster you misunderstood everybody’s attitude towards WC. It’s not the system we blame, but the practitioners who didn’t want to make it any real, just exchange fantasy stories about super-skilled sifus who could beat anyone. It’s like aikido. Could you use it in full-speed/full-power application? Yes, ofc. You need a sparring partner, experienced in striking disciplines, so you can train all your moves with real punches/kicks, not that bs chops from your arse up-and-down. And you need to be trained at least in boxing to throw punches like it’ll be in live situation. But what do we see in almost any aikido club? Two nerds in glasses, who can’t punch or kick for shit, are training some tender gay moves on each other. Lol, they’ll be better by doing ukemi, at least it’ll teach them how not to break thyself when falling in teh streets.

Yes, it is true that hobbyists fill the ranks of many martial art classes.
Everyone is in agreement that unless you spar you can't develop the live skills. You also will not develop conditioning to take hits or to make the art work in the stress of combat.

But the attitude common in the MMA community which is way off, is that WC as a system doesn't work- which is something different. The flawed reasoning is that so few WC fighters have had success in MMA so it must be because the system 'fails'.
The main points I have made are that:

- Since hardly any schools spar or cross train, we have a very small pool of WC guys who could feasibly develop the skills to cross over to MMA and see really how well the system works or not.

- When guys have trained WC properly or incorporated the strategy we have seen some success, and I use Ferg as the example since it is alot like a good WC fighter will look like in MMA even if he is an amalgamation of MT, dirty boxing and only limited Wing Chun training altho he spends hours in sessions on the wooden dummy.

- That alot of the system is self defence oriented and that MMA does not cross fully to self defence so there is effective methods there which you would never see in MMA anyway.

I think most martial arts (except BJJ because rolling about on concrete is an awful idea) can be useful for self defence

I think a background in sambo, or something like Geoff Thompson's system can be very useful - the issue then is finding a place to learn it that isn't bad. Thompson doesn't appear to teach anymore and good places to train there are sparse.



I like the fence as a concept.

It's amazing how deluded people in the MMA community are about self defence. This is the fault of the Gracies, since day 1 they tried to bridge the idea that "BJJ is the best style in mma, BJJ is the best for self defence".
It was a marketing genius strategy which UFC 1 was the infomercial for.

I would be willing to bet that 90% of the hobbyists who train sport BJJ believe they are learning "the best self defence system".

Actually the fence and related ideas get to the issue- it is about strategy primarily.
In that sense drilling a good punch on the pads and working a fence strategy is the basics for self defence in many situations.
Having more well rounded skills may of course also be necessary.

But it is necessary to know what are the essentials and what is the support system.
BJJ sells itself as the essentials for self defence when it is just a small part of the support system.
Even if it goes to the ground, sweeps and getting back up immediately should be the priority.
But they are selling it the wrong way round and in that way encouraging dangerous delusions about self protection which would get you likely hurt bad or worse. Even the old school karate schools who have a very strong punch, good conditioning to take a hit and can learn fence strategy would be 100x preferable for self defense in most situations.

As to learning the essentials of the fence - you can grasp the fundamentals through videos that are available and then you just need to put the hours in drilling it and exploring it's application with partners in various scenarios.




I've personally made sure to buy/download some of this material for reference as it is gold.
Could easily be added as part of a self defence curriculum to any good boxing, MT, Karate or WC school and then experiment to make it work with increasing intensity. For Thompson this also means the verbal and posturing to trigger adrenaline and fight or flight reactions.
If you have people at your school who work security you will no doubt start getting real life feedback of application also, similar to the example you mentioned.

Interesting fact, Chuck Norris brought Geoff Thompson in to his school to teach 'The Fence' to his Karate instructors (cue Chuck Norris jokes here).

 

[II Muchetto II]

Yes, it is true that hobbyists fill the ranks of many martial art classes.
Everyone is in agreement that unless you spar you can't develop the live skills. You also will not develop conditioning to take hits or to make the art work in the stress of combat.

But the attitude common in the MMA community which is way off, is that WC as a system doesn't work- which is something different. The flawed reasoning is that so few WC fighters have had success in MMA so it must be because the system 'fails'.
The main points I have made are that:

- Since hardly any schools spar or cross train, we have a very small pool of WC guys who could feasibly develop the skills to cross over to MMA and see really how well the system works or not.

- When guys have trained WC properly or incorporated the strategy we have seen some success, and I use Ferg as the example since it is alot like a good WC fighter will look like in MMA even if he is an amalgamation of MT, dirty boxing and only limited Wing Chun training altho he spends hours in sessions on the wooden dummy.

- That alot of the system is self defence oriented and that MMA does not cross fully to self defence so there is effective methods there which you would never see in MMA anyway.



It's amazing how deluded people in the MMA community are about self defence. This is the fault of the Gracies, since day 1 they tried to bridge the idea that "BJJ is the best style in mma, BJJ is the best for self defence".
It was a marketing genius strategy which UFC 1 was the infomercial for.

I would be willing to bet that 90% of the hobbyists who train sport BJJ believe they are learning "the best self defence system".

Actually the fence and related ideas get to the issue- it is about strategy primarily.
In that sense drilling a good punch on the pads and working a fence strategy is the basics for self defence in many situations.
Having more well rounded skills may of course also be necessary.

But it is necessary to know what are the essentials and what is the support system.
BJJ sells itself as the essentials for self defence when it is just a small part of the support system.
Even if it goes to the ground, sweeps and getting back up immediately should be the priority.
But they are selling it the wrong way round and in that way encouraging dangerous delusions about self protection which would get you likely hurt bad or worse. Even the old school karate schools who have a very strong punch, good conditioning to take a hit and can learn fence strategy would be 100x preferable for self defense in most situations.

As to learning the essentials of the fence - you can grasp the fundamentals through videos that are available and then you just need to put the hours in drilling it and exploring it's application with partners in various scenarios.




I've personally made sure to buy/download some of this material for reference as it is gold.
Could easily be added as part of a self defence curriculum to any good boxing, MT, Karate or WC school and then experiment to make it work with increasing intensity. For Thompson this also means the verbal and posturing to trigger adrenaline and fight or flight reactions.
If you have people at your school who work security you will no doubt start getting real life feedback of application also, similar to the example you mentioned.

Interesting fact, Chuck Norris brought Geoff Thompson in to his school to teach 'The Fence' to his Karate instructors (cue Chuck Norris jokes here).

It's hard to disagree with anything you say here. What I would say is though, I don't think anyone in the MMA community believes the BJJ is the best thing for self defence. I think you will only find that opinion amongst the BJJ community.

I don't think anyone really thinks WC definitely doesn't work. No one is willing for it not to work. I think everyone would like to hope deep down that it does work. And if MMA schools are starting to bring it in more now and we all get to see that it is effective, then it will be exciting for everyone

I think the reason why people who are into MMA believe that training MMA is the best all round way of being prepared for self defence is for different reasons.

You have the fans who don't train, but feel what they are watching is the closet thing to a real fight.

Then you have people who train, who get to the point where thry feel comfortable in most positions. And whenever a new student turns up, they get shown that they feel more than comfortable in all positions.

Also what you need to realise, most people have been in a fight or two at some point of their lives.
And after you start training in MMA, you look back at those moments and think, if you had been training MMA back then, that moment in my life would of gone very differently. So you come to the conclusion from first experiance that MMA training is absolutly fine for self defence situations we have been in.

The first time I got jumped by a group of lads, I was only young and had no training, I had the shit beat of me for no reason. I wouldn't of been able to take them on with training, and I couldn't do anything to avoid because they snuck up behind me. But the thing that I found to be the issue was the shock factor when I got hit for the first time. If I had experienced hard sparring before, or had competed in the ring, then my body wouldn't of gone into shock and I would of been able to handle the situation differently. That is the only thing that would of helped me at that moment.

But childhood can be cruel and kids can be arseholes. When get a bit older and grow up, getting into fights just doest really happen anymore. Sure you can train solely for "what if" self defence moments that may or may not happen, but why would you want too? The risks of being in that situation as a grown, mature adult are very very slim.

 

[shincheckin]

"What works on a soft ring mat works on hard concrete"

Your using IF scenarios again. Just cause you fight on cement does not mean your going to get slammed on it. You could get slammed, you also could not. I have been in fights on the cement, without the it negatively affecting me

"What works in a 1 on 1 matchfight works in a multiple attackers spontaneous attack"

Boxing isn't geared towards multiple attackers like WC, yet we cannot find WC working against a single person let alone multiple attackers. And we have already proven that what works in the ring such as boxing works outside the ring, against multiple attackers.

"What works with gloves to protect the hands works without gloves where hands can break much easier"

Breaking your hands is possible, it's also not possible. I have been in my share of fights, only broke my thumb a few times and swollen my knuckles, my hand didn't "shatter".....this is you again presenting IF scenarios. IF my hand breaks and IF it does not.

"What works without groin strikes works with groin strikes"

What IF you miss, what IF you don't. Groin shots are great, but they don't make boxing any LESS effective. More IF scenarios from you.

But I thought that if its not allowed in MMA it doesn't work?

I have never said that, of course kicking someone in the nuts works, that technique doesn't make boxing any LESS effective

BJJ is not good against multiple attackers for sure, but it's great against one. Its It's possible to not get slammed on the cement, it's also possible.
BJJ working on the cement. They ended up in the grass eventually but the takedown etc was on cement.
I'd argue that 1 on 1, bjj is the greatest size equalizer


You seem to advocate WC for knife fighting as most the videos you post are against a guy with a knife.
Fantasy vs reality





This is BS dude. Sure it's possible, just like its entirely possible to do the same thing with spinning elbows instead. Its is possible, but not likely. I actually knew a guy that was a bouncer and threw a elbow into a guys punch and injured his hand badly, or so he claimed, either way, its possible but not likely

 

[TheMaster]

Your using IF scenarios again. Just cause you fight on cement does not mean your going to get slammed on it. You could get slammed, you also could not. I have been in fights on the cement, without the it negatively affecting me



Boxing isn't geared towards multiple attackers like WC, yet we cannot find WC working against a single person let alone multiple attackers. And we have already proven that what works in the ring such as boxing works outside the ring, against multiple attackers.



Breaking your hands is possible, it's also not possible. I have been in my share of fights, only broke my thumb a few times and swollen my knuckles, my hand didn't "shatter".....this is you again presenting IF scenarios. IF my hand breaks and IF it does not.



What IF you miss, what IF you don't. Groin shots are great, but they don't make boxing any LESS effective. More IF scenarios from you.



I have never said that, of course kicking someone in the nuts works, that technique doesn't make boxing any LESS effective

BJJ is not good against multiple attackers for sure, but it's great against one. Its It's possible to not get slammed on the cement, it's also possible.
BJJ working on the cement. They ended up in the grass eventually but the takedown etc was on cement.
I'd argue that 1 on 1, bjj is the greatest size equalizer


You seem to advocate WC for knife fighting as most the videos you post are against a guy with a knife.
Fantasy vs reality





This is BS dude. Sure it's possible, just like its entirely possible to do the same thing with spinning elbows instead. Its is possible, but not likely. I actually knew a guy that was a bouncer and threw a elbow into a guys punch and injured his hand badly, or so he claimed, either way, its possible but not likely

You can quit posting bs videos which are obviously garbage.
And 'master wong' is a known fool with unknown WC lineage.

The one who was going on about knife fighting was you by raising MDS, which I reluctantly responded to knowing u would try to use that as an example of 'fantasy'.
I never said any art was good vs knife you should escape if possible but the Filipino arts are known to be tested and WC has historical links with Kali and the empty hand techniques gel well.

 

[shincheckin]

You can quit posting bs videos which are obviously garbage.
And 'master wong' is a known fool with unknown WC lineage.

The one who was going on about knife fighting was you by raising MDS, which I reluctantly responded to knowing u would try to use that as an example of 'fantasy'.
I never said any art was good vs knife you should escape if possible but the Filipino arts are known to be tested and WC has historical links with Kali and the empty hand techniques gel well.

BJJ video on cement wasn't BS.

You still have only been able to provide a infinite amount of IFS in regards to something working in the ring working out of the ring.....if it WORKS it WORKS regardless of where it takes place.

 

[Dexter]

@TheMaster What you’ve wrote about WC hobbyists is just the common problem of all TMAs - nobody could say in advance if the fellas are any good without sparring them. For example, if a guy here says that he’s a 2nd grade in boxing, I know exactly what am I dealing with - he would has at least 15-20 amateur fights under his belt. And if in similar situation some TMA dude claims he’s training for 3-5 years, I’d have no clue - he can be shitty or he can be real deal, depending on the gym he’s from.

 

[shincheckin]

@TheMaster What you’ve wrote about WC hobbyists is just the common problem of all TMAs - nobody could say in advance if the fellas are any good without sparring them. For example, if a guy here says that he’s a 2nd grade in boxing, I know exactly what am I dealing with - he would has at least 15-20 amateur fights under his belt. And if in similar situation some TMA dude claims he’s training for 3-5 years, I’d have no clue - he can be shitty or he can be real deal, depending on the gym he’s from.

But a grandmaster must exist somewhere. And if so, we would know about it. Even if he is living on a mountaintop in the bamboo forest. I mean even people in the slums and even inmates are able to get ahold of cell phones now a days.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

Your using IF scenarios again. Just cause you fight on cement does not mean your going to get slammed on it. You could get slammed, you also could not. I have been in fights on the cement, without the it negatively affecting me



Boxing isn't geared towards multiple attackers like WC, yet we cannot find WC working against a single person let alone multiple attackers. And we have already proven that what works in the ring such as boxing works outside the ring, against multiple attackers.



Breaking your hands is possible, it's also not possible. I have been in my share of fights, only broke my thumb a few times and swollen my knuckles, my hand didn't "shatter".....this is you again presenting IF scenarios. IF my hand breaks and IF it does not.



What IF you miss, what IF you don't. Groin shots are great, but they don't make boxing any LESS effective. More IF scenarios from you.



I have never said that, of course kicking someone in the nuts works, that technique doesn't make boxing any LESS effective

BJJ is not good against multiple attackers for sure, but it's great against one. Its It's possible to not get slammed on the cement, it's also possible.
BJJ working on the cement. They ended up in the grass eventually but the takedown etc was on cement.
I'd argue that 1 on 1, bjj is the greatest size equalizer


You seem to advocate WC for knife fighting as most the videos you post are against a guy with a knife.
Fantasy vs reality





This is BS dude. Sure it's possible, just like its entirely possible to do the same thing with spinning elbows instead. Its is possible, but not likely. I actually knew a guy that was a bouncer and threw a elbow into a guys punch and injured his hand badly, or so he claimed, either way, its possible but not likely

Master Wong is too funny. Honestly I could see the elbow blocks working very good in a street fight. The elbow blocks remind me of the "The Lock" or Crossarm defense in boxing used by Archie Moore.

Its very subtle but Moore does use his elbows to catch punches sometimes and dissuade his opponent from throwing because it hurts like hell while also positioning himself to throw mean intentions on his hooks.
Archie Moores's trainer Hiwatha Grey was a bareknuckle champion I believe.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Yes, it is true that hobbyists fill the ranks of many martial art classes.
Everyone is in agreement that unless you spar you can't develop the live skills. You also will not develop conditioning to take hits or to make the art work in the stress of combat.

But the attitude common in the MMA community which is way off, is that WC as a system doesn't work- which is something different. The flawed reasoning is that so few WC fighters have had success in MMA so it must be because the system 'fails'.
The main points I have made are that:

- Since hardly any schools spar or cross train, we have a very small pool of WC guys who could feasibly develop the skills to cross over to MMA and see really how well the system works or not.

- When guys have trained WC properly or incorporated the strategy we have seen some success, and I use Ferg as the example since it is alot like a good WC fighter will look like in MMA even if he is an amalgamation of MT, dirty boxing and only limited Wing Chun training altho he spends hours in sessions on the wooden dummy.

- That alot of the system is self defence oriented and that MMA does not cross fully to self defence so there is effective methods there which you would never see in MMA anyway.



It's amazing how deluded people in the MMA community are about self defence. This is the fault of the Gracies, since day 1 they tried to bridge the idea that "BJJ is the best style in mma, BJJ is the best for self defence".
It was a marketing genius strategy which UFC 1 was the infomercial for.

I would be willing to bet that 90% of the hobbyists who train sport BJJ believe they are learning "the best self defence system".

Actually the fence and related ideas get to the issue- it is about strategy primarily.
In that sense drilling a good punch on the pads and working a fence strategy is the basics for self defence in many situations.
Having more well rounded skills may of course also be necessary.

But it is necessary to know what are the essentials and what is the support system.
BJJ sells itself as the essentials for self defence when it is just a small part of the support system.
Even if it goes to the ground, sweeps and getting back up immediately should be the priority.
But they are selling it the wrong way round and in that way encouraging dangerous delusions about self protection which would get you likely hurt bad or worse. Even the old school karate schools who have a very strong punch, good conditioning to take a hit and can learn fence strategy would be 100x preferable for self defense in most situations.

As to learning the essentials of the fence - you can grasp the fundamentals through videos that are available and then you just need to put the hours in drilling it and exploring it's application with partners in various scenarios.




I've personally made sure to buy/download some of this material for reference as it is gold.
Could easily be added as part of a self defence curriculum to any good boxing, MT, Karate or WC school and then experiment to make it work with increasing intensity. For Thompson this also means the verbal and posturing to trigger adrenaline and fight or flight reactions.
If you have people at your school who work security you will no doubt start getting real life feedback of application also, similar to the example you mentioned.

Interesting fact, Chuck Norris brought Geoff Thompson in to his school to teach 'The Fence' to his Karate instructors (cue Chuck Norris jokes here).

I don't think t's delusion. Given most self defence systems legitimately don't work and how most TMAs have no sparring, you're still going to be safest if you're in a hard martial arts gym, like MMA, Thai Boxing etc. You need to be in a place that emphasises fitness and puts you in a situation where you have to defend yourself while actually being hit - I can't say that is true for most TMA gyms.

I'm personally not a great fan of BJJ, because wrestling is so de-emphasised in it today. For me throws should be prioritised before groundwork, and I prefer pins and rides to where an opponent down over hooks in, backpacking someone. I think there's probably a deeper talent pool in BJJ for purely just ground grappling, but it's because it's all they do. As my sambo coach once said, 'yes some of them are probably better on the ground than me, but it doesn't matter because I just killed them' in reference to him demonstrating a hip toss.

Also, to paraphrase Joe Rogan, the ground game of sambists, judoka and catch wrestlers are under rated. People think that because it's not BJJ it's inferior grappling, but for the most part, I don't think the skill disparity is high, if it exists at all.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Master Wong is too funny. Honestly I could see the elbow blocks working very good in a street fight. The elbow blocks remind me of the "The Lock" or Crossarm defense in boxing used by Archie Moore.

Its very subtle but Moore does use his elbows to catch punches sometimes and dissuade his opponent from throwing because it hurts like hell while also positioning himself to throw mean intentions on his hooks.
Archie Moores's trainer Hiwatha Grey was a bareknuckle champion I believe.

My issue with Master Wong is so much of what he teaches is bullshit, I'm not bothered by his elbowing of punches, I use a cross guard in Muay Thai, and coach it in conjunction with mummy guard/dracula guard. For me tho the difference is in your elbows being there, and trying to specifically elbow the hands. I don't think it's THAT hard, but it's not something I'd want to emphasise.

For me it's mostly an Archie Moore hand position when blocking, making use of teeps out of it and being sure to use long guards like dracula and the mummy guard to smother your opponents punches and/or close range for knee strikes. That and going for that Gene Fullmer style wrap around the face, if you're really looking for some aggression.

It's all a balancing act of knowing when to, or when not to use it. By sheer coincidence, Sylvie at 8limbs, started working on it a few months after I did:


She prioritises the lead arm being on top, conventional boxing wisdom is that it should be on the bottom flicking out in the jab. Fullmer style cross-arms make it hard to jab out of - but for her needs, teeping and looking for the clinch, I think it can add an extra layer of defence casually.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

BJJ is not good against multiple attackers for sure, but it's great against one. Its It's possible to not get slammed on the cement, it's also possible.
BJJ working on the cement. They ended up in the grass eventually but the takedown etc was on cement.
I'd argue that 1 on 1, bjj is the greatest size equalizer

This is another good point, because while I don't like the idea of rolling around on concrete, with the possibility of multiple attackers. Geoff Thompson would probably say, it's life or death who cares?

And 'master wong' is a known fool with unknown WC lineage.

I've voiced before that I'm not a fan of Master Wong, but he has actually been to my gym, trained and demonstrated with our coaches, and I have more confidence in him than most other wing chun guys, lineage or no.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

This is another good point, because while I don't like the idea of rolling around on concrete, with the possibility of multiple attackers. Geoff Thompson would probably say, it's life or death who cares?




I've voiced before that I'm not a fan of Master Wong, but he has actually been to my gym, trained and demonstrated with our coaches, and I have more confidence in him than most other wing chun guys, lineage or no.

Is Master Wong as funny in person as he is he is in his videos? Dude has me actually laughing out loud with the stuff he says.

 

[Dexter]

Elbow blocks in Russian variant of dirty boxing for SD.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Is Master Wong as funny in person as he is he is in his videos? Dude has me actually laughing out loud with the stuff he says.

He's aight

 

[SandisLL]

some TMA dude claims he’s training for 3-5 years, I’d have no clue - he can be shitty or he can be real deal, depending on the gym he’s from.

Yeah. their fitness/ S/C levels too might be different. from very low till such high that this alone makes serious problems to deal with them even if they did not had any training in combat arts or sport.
Some TMA guys cross trained or after TMA had switched to KB, boxe and had performed not bad at all.

 

[Vaanderdecken]

Master Wong is too funny. Honestly I could see the elbow blocks working very good in a street fight. The elbow blocks remind me of the "The Lock" or Crossarm defense in boxing used by Archie Moore.

Its very subtle but Moore does use his elbows to catch punches sometimes and dissuade his opponent from throwing because it hurts like hell while also positioning himself to throw mean intentions on his hooks.
Archie Moores's trainer Hiwatha Grey was a bareknuckle champion I believe.

I've boxed for years and use the elbow block against punches routinely. I've hurt a few hands in sparring, but it honestly wasn't intentional. It's just a poor shoulder roll with the elbow flared upwards. A few times I've been made to pay when they fake the straight right and throw a right hook to the body instead. It works well against reckless punchers, but I try not to use it against guys who pick their shots well.