The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[shincheckin]

Boxing is probably 1000x more popular than Wing Chun and is a popular sport on tv. I also said that they spar regularly which WC does not so they create much more fighters. So you are not going to find anywhere as many videos of guys using it. Doesn't mean that WC cant be effective if trained with live sparring.
I have even spelled out that main issue, that they stick to WC vs WC and doing chi sau most of the time with no exposure to other arts

This is again rewording no grandmasters left.
One must ask oneself why boxing is 100x more popular than WC, despite WC being around much longer. It might have something to do with effectiveness.
I'm not trying to say WC can't be effective. I believe certain parts of it can carry over to real fighting in and out the ring. However any martial art that doesn't practice live sparring is flawed. The sparring doesn't need to be 100%...take a look at how the majority of MT sparring is light.

I'm not reaching to put WC down. Your teaching to promote it, as so far the best thing you have been able to show was what you called chi Sao and spoiling hands at 47 seconds on a grainy fight clip...however at 47 seconds all we can see is a guy's back, he's tired, and stumbles forward with wild ugly boxing. Grabs the guy with 1 hand, and punches with the other... its WC!!!! Sorry dude its not.

I'm glad you finally answered my question in regards to MDS, as its a why for me to really see where your mind is at in regards to BS vs reality. You believe MDS is practical, unfortunately its total BS. And this is not in regards to relating it to mma and how it would work in the cage. It's in regards to it working in the scenarios he presents and claims they would work.

Sorry dude but I'm not going drop my knife because you punched my forearm, then with that same punching hand, without retracting it, do a 2 finger jab to the throat and a open palm strike to the throat, those strikes may hurt a little at best but is not going to drop or stop anyone, specifically someone with the adrenaline of being in a knife fight. The man is not going to grab his throat in agony as you continue to attack him with some elbows and then a knee. Watch some MT, sures there's 1 hit elbow kos, but there's a lot that aren't.

So as I said, getting your opinion on MDS sheds light into what you think is effective or practical vs fantasy. MDS is fantasy, you view it as practical. Pay close attention and you will notice them slapping their bodies prior to executing moves for additional sound effects.



Fighting just doesn't work like this. People aren't stopped in their tracks and immediately stop fighting from 1 strike, or even multiple. Watch any mma fight, those are sport applications, you don't like sport application, look at street fights. Yes people get dropped with 1 punch, but those usually fall under sucker punches. Many eat multiple shots and push through.

Seriously dude, c'mon now, your deadly punch to my forearm made me drop my knife. Your living in a fantasy world.

 

[TheMaster]

I'm glad you finally answered my question in regards to MDS, as its a why for me to really see where your mind is at in regards to BS vs reality. You believe MDS is practical, unfortunately its total BS. And this is not in regards to relating it to mma and how it would work in the cage. It's in regards to it working in the scenarios he presents and claims they would work.

Sorry dude but I'm not going drop my knife because you punched my forearm, then with that same punching hand, without retracting it, do a 2 finger jab to the throat and a open palm strike to the throat, those strikes may hurt a little at best but is not going to drop or stop anyone, specifically someone with the adrenaline of being in a knife fight. The man is not going to grab his throat in agony as you continue to attack him with some elbows and then a knee. Watch some MT, sures there's 1 hit elbow kos, but there's a lot that aren't.

So as I said, getting your opinion on MDS sheds light into what you think is effective or practical vs fantasy. MDS is fantasy, you view it as practical. Pay close attention and you will notice them slapping their bodies prior to executing moves for additional sound effects.



Fighting just doesn't work like this. People aren't stopped in their tracks and immediately stop fighting from 1 strike, or even multiple. Watch any mma fight, those are sport applications, you don't like sport application, look at street fights. Yes people get dropped with 1 punch, but those usually fall under sucker punches. Many eat multiple shots and push through.

Seriously dude, c'mon now, your deadly punch to my forearm made me drop my knife. Your living in a fantasy world.

And I new you were gonna say MDS was total bs and try to say that by saying it had some legitimacy I believed in 'fantasy arts'.

Which is why I was clear to point out that only some, not all of the techniques are practical and that he is a choreographer so uses showmanship ("punching the arm then guy drops knife, guys exaggeratedly falling to the ground")
I was also careful to relate it to legit self defense systems like Geoff Thompson and Bas Rutten street defence.

All the above are recognizably similar in delivery. Of the three Geoff Thompson is the most legit, then Bas street system them MDS.
Here is another silat/JKD guy trained by Dan Inosanto who also does choreography on films but also teaches some valid methods.



All are recognizably more similar and teach far more legit self defence strategy and technique for the most part, than 'Gracie self defence' which is usually an invitation to get your head soccer kicked or be beaten by multiple attackers and is basically clueless about real world fighting and thinks it happens in an imaginary bubble where there is only one guy on a soft mat.



Actually I had not really looked much into MDS until you mentioned but for you to say it is total bs shows me you don't know much about self defence or tactics. Yes he is doing some flashy stuff so I wouldn't reference him but the overall Silat approach to self defence is mostly legit.
Also these guys are always good for a reality check, not just watching MMA then thinking "what works in the ring works outside the ring" lol.


But either way, the basic premise of simple direct and efficient is the valid approach.

 

[shincheckin]

And I new you were gonna say MDS was total bs and try to say that by saying it had some legitimacy I believed in 'fantasy arts'.

Which is why I was clear to point out that only some, not all of the techniques are practical and that he is a choreographer so uses showmanship ("punching the arm then guy drops knife")
I was also careful to relate it to legit self defense systems like Geoff Thompson and Bas Rutten street defence.

All the above are recognizably similar in delivery. Of the three Geoff Thompson is the most legit, then Bas street system them MDS.
Here is another silat/JKD guy trained by Dan Inosanto who also does choreography on films but also teaches some valid methods.



All are recognizably more similar and teach far more legit self defence strategy and technique for the most part, than 'Gracie self defence' which is usually an invitation to get your head soccer kicked or be beaten by multiple attackers and is basically clueless about real world fighting and thinks it happens in an imaginary bubble where there is only one guy on a soft mat.



Actually I had not really looked much into MDS until you mentioned but for you to say it is total bs shows me you don't know much about self defence or tactics. Yes he is doing some flashy stuff so I wouldn't reference him but the overall Silat approach to self defence is mostly legit.
Also these guys are always good for a reality check, not just watching MMA then thinking "what works in the ring works outside the ring" lol.


But either way, the basic premise of simple direct and efficient is the valid approach.

Why would something that works in the ring during a real fight, not work outside of the ring?

Spare the infinite IF scenarios

Punching someone in the face works regardless of where it takes place.

What doesn't work is someone dropping their knife from getting punched in the forearm. C'mon dude.

Remove the ring and replace it with a parking lot. what worked before will work again.

The only person that doesn't know much about "real fighting " is you.

I would have to disagree with your viewpoint on bjj. Sure those things can happen that you mentioned but they can also not happen.........IF

I'll agree it's not good for multiple attackers but for 1 on 1, a bjj guy is going to smash all these WC and MDS guys by ripping their arms off like a gorilla.

Have you ever rolled? Do you know any BJJ blackbelts? The dudes are straight gorillas. Very dangerous guys. Seeing and feeling it in person is different than watching on TV. Relate it to watching a great white on TV vs in a shark cage....only then do you give the respect it deserves.


Either way here's what we agree on although said differently.

You, WC is good if you cross train.
Me, cross training WC would have a little to gain.

 

[TheMaster]

Why would something that works in the ring during a real fight, not work outside of the ring?

Spare the infinite IF scenarios

Punching someone in the face works regardless of where it takes place.

What doesn't work is someone dropping their knife from getting punched in the forearm. C'mon dude.

Remove the ring and replace it with a parking lot. what worked before will work again.

The only person that doesn't know much about "real fighting " is you.

I would have to disagree with your viewpoint on bjj. Sure those things can happen that you mentioned but they can also not happen.........IF

I'll agree it's not good for multiple attackers but for 1 on 1, a bjj guy is going to smash all these WC and MDS guys by ripping their arms off like a gorilla.

Have you ever rolled? Do you know any BJJ blackbelts? The dudes are straight gorillas. Very dangerous guys. Seeing and feeling it in person is different than watching on TV. Relate it to watching a great white on TV vs in a shark cage....only then do you give the respect it deserves.


Either way here's what we agree on although said differently.

You, WC is good if you cross train.
Me, cross training WC would have a little to gain.

Yes, and it's those multitude of IF scenarios that make all the difference and can be life saving if you pick the right strategy compared to the wrong one.

That's why saying as a blanket statement "what works in the ring works outside the ring" is foolish.

While it is true that there is crossover with valid technique like having good punches, the strategy is totally different and you may also have muscle memory for bad habits. You might instinctively go for a takedown for example.

The most obviouse one is that taking the fight to the ground in any way or if it does go there, not trying to immediately get up is a dangerous mistake in most situations.
So that right there completely changes the strategy from what we see in MMA half of the time.

Even the type of takedown is different if for some reason you wanted to do it. I have always said Judo is far better then BJJ for self defence and better also than wrestling.
Double legs takedowns will mess up your knees on concrete or you could even get ko'd driving for the takedown on the ground.
Also alot of Judo throws stay standing if you want.

Palm strikes are often better than punches since risk of damaging hands is less.

There are alot more you could add that makes it fundamentally different.

If you told someone to spend time learning only one art for self defence between GJJ or Geoff Thompson system the clear answer would be Thompsons system. Even MDS, if you could get them to look past the sometimes flashy moves would be overall much better than GJJ for self defence since you train awareness of weapons, striking with elbows and attacking vulnerable targets and basically keeping it standing to escape of need be or against multiple people. Do some basic pad work for striking and it is enough since the strategy is to keep it standing and attack very directly.

GJJ teaches to roll on the floor and get soccer kicked, and is usless against two people.

Your arguments about WC are that it is not a combat sport and doesnt spar which I agree with.
I also agree that it doesn't even take that much to start making it more practical just do even light sparring more or "Gor sau" not just chi sau and bring in other stylists and it will be given a chance to show it's effectiveness.
However few schools do this.

Ferguson has shown WC fight principles can work. So we will see more of it in future even of a limited version of the art.

I also said that there are Grandmasters but to be a Grandmaster in Wing Chun you have to be expert in the complete system much of which isnt for sport so they won't generally be competition guys although Wong Shun Leung was famous for challenge fights.

And yes, I know how dangerous a good ground fighter is if they get you there. But likewise have you 'rolled' with a top level WC guy who can hit you with big power at close range with multiple strikes including the "illegal" ones?
I guarantee you would have a different opinion and more respect if you did so.

 

[shincheckin]

That's why saying as a blanket statement "what works in the ring works outside the ring" is foolish.

Please explain why this is foolish. Without using a infinite of IF scenarios, because any IF scenario created is a moot point, IF I go for a clinch and get swept on concrete and IF instead you get kneed in the face and IF the fight takes place in a dirt parking lot instead of cement and if WC guy punches him in the forearm which does nothing and other guy punches him with a cross and KOs him and........... IF!!!!!!
All these IF scenarios can be made up to go for one side or the other.

What works in a fight works in a fight regardless of where it takes place.

You need to come up with a valid explanation as to why something that works in the ring would not work out of the ring other than a imaginary IF scenario.

 

[listrahtes]

I support MDS and all similar systems. It helps evolution to select, eliminate and evolve

I learned something very similar in Ninjutsu but no finger strikes etc and we did it in full force. Even then it was seen as kind of playacting as knife fights dont end like that in general. A boxer who has distance down has a good chance of escaping.

 

[Sanserif]

Yes, this is true. Karate has been there from the beginning.
If the standup fighters literally had all been given a 6 month preview of what to expect and just done takedown defence, the early UFC's would have looked very different and there may never have been a Gracie myth born.
How would Royce have done against Gerard Gordaue if he had takedown defence?
The Gracies organized the event, and picked strikers clueless of grappling or wrestlers who couldn't strike. And everyone has lapped it up since, even the ultimate bs- that BJJ is some expert self defence art when it really just a supplement last resort system.

WC is fundamentally a close combat art. It isnt really designed for the ring where people can fight at range. Of course that adaptation can happen which is what this thread is about.
Ferg used whatever WC he knows well because he keeps the telephone box distance. And even if he did not learn elbows from WC he practices them alot on the dummy. More importantly he is showing that WC fight strategy can work, more than whether he learned all the skills from WC itself. As we mentioned, there is alot of overlap with dirty boxing and MT.



Yes this is all true. WC is is done against WC. This is great from the pure 'art' perspective and that is fair enough. Like guys who want to do pure sport BJJ they would usually get their ass kicked in a fight since they have no takedowns or awareness of striking from the pure grappling positions. But BJJ has a strong competition element also and links to mma so it stays more in touch with different arts and how to work against them.
WC is 90% of the time just about the art itself and the game of chi sau.
So I agree, the shortcomings of the style and how to for example deal with a kickboxer who wants to stay at range are not addressed. This makes it appear the style is limited but it just needs exposure and adaptation to other standup arts which would happen more WC MMA teams appear.



JKD is an early form of MMA let's just leave it that. JKD was his concept. What happened was some of them turned it into a cult of Bruce but it was supposed to be constant evolution.
But not all are like that, Matt Thornton and Erik Paulson being JKD guys who show what it was supposed to be.
Bruce was training with friggin Gene Lebell, a guy who in the modern era produced elite MMA fighters like Karo who holds a win over Nick Diaz. So give him his due.
Safe to say Bruce was the forerunner and pioneer of US MMA. In fact more than just sport MMA since he also integrated Kali and stick fighting.

As for boxing being also about ending fight quickly- in theory yes but it depends on the style. Mayweather, Maliganaggi and point fighters do not follow that strategy. It is also limited to just punches to end things quickly.
Is MT about ending things quickly? Often bouts are to an stage a long battle for an audience. Who wants to see a quick ko, the stadiums want to see a long battle of leg kicks I would say the rules are not about ending things quickly.

We have dialogued on tony ferguson and wingchun before and I stil havent seen any real wingchun application by him in the octagon. Boxing is also a close quarters fighting art and that is what Ferguson is using at close quarters. I suspect his wingchun training for video is a form of misdirection to his opponents similar to some outlandish training that he does

As for karate, rutren,may have started in kyokushin but his fight game was mostly kickboxing and submission grappling. Machida used more of his karate in his fights but again his punching etc still mostly displays the usual boxing and kickboxing and grappling game.

In the end for unarmed fighting what works best in the 2oth and 21st century context has been proven time and time again to be boxing, kickboxing and muay thai, wrestling and grappling whether bjj or submission wrestling. All other arts are usually at most garnishing with the exceptions like stephen Thompson really standing out. So far nobody has displayed wingchun effectively yet in mma fighting.

That is not to say that there are no benefits to learning wingchun. In all cma there is inherent in the the study of vectors of attack, sensitivity, balance and the importance of proper structure and body mechanics in order to obtain more power or defensive strength to usually a greater degree compared to many other arts. However rhe problem with cma is thta the combative ability of its practitioners has atrophied since the 19thcentury and ossified into archaic forms which are no longer adapted well enough for the contemporary context. Instead of testing itself against all comers kungfu has retreated into forms and artistic expression and lived off old legends like bruce lee (who didnt even use wing chun primarily) to retain legitimacy. But the game has been up for wingchun for a long time now imho.

The path for wingchun to regain its lost legitimacy is to convert itself into a martial sport, to adopt log range and medium range techniques from other arts, to redesign its techniques and to have constant free all ranges sparring and to test itself and train with practitioners of martial sports in competitions and to redesign the art with new techniques and forms rhat apply the same wigchun principles for the new context and the new arts and styles wingchun is likely to encounter in the street. The best WC practitioners must then apply it in he octagon and show that it works and the art will never lack for students and supporters of they can do this.

 

[TheMaster]

Please explain why this is foolish. Without using a infinite of IF scenarios, because any IF scenario created is a moot point, IF I go for a clinch and get swept on concrete and IF instead you get kneed in the face and IF the fight takes place in a dirt parking lot instead of cement and if WC guy punches him in the forearm which does nothing and other guy punches him with a cross and KOs him and........... IF!!!!!!
All these IF scenarios can be made up to go for one side or the other.

What works in a fight works in a fight regardless of where it takes place.

You need to come up with a valid explanation as to why something that works in the ring would not work out of the ring other than a imaginary IF scenario.

I have given multiple explanations for why it foolish, the obvious being the environment we fight in real life is almost always a hard surface compared to the soft mats of the ring.
Just because some guy like Maestro wants to use choreography to promote Silat doesn't make many of the methods and strategies of Silat fundamentally impractical (although MDS clearly uses bs techniques as well like a flashy back kick). They are still mainly way more sensible for self defence than Gracie self defence tactics.

"What works on a soft ring mat works on hard concrete"

You see how foolish your statement sounds when we put it like that?

"What works in a 1 on 1 matchfight works in a multiple attackers spontaneous attack"

"What works with gloves to protect the hands works without gloves where hands can break much easier"

"What works without groin strikes works with groin strikes"

All these are reformulations of your statements and all sound foolish.

Here we have the original legend of US MMA and 'worlds most dangerous man', crumbling to a groin strike and being finished in 2 minutes - while wearing a protective cup.
But I thought that if its not allowed in MMA it doesn't work?


Sorry dude. As much as combat sport is a great preparation for self defence and there is alot of crossover we are talking about two different things and different strategies and approaches to fighting for each. To not realize that is living in a partial fantasy.

 

[II Muchetto II]

I have given multiple explanations for why it foolish, the obvious being the environment we fight in real life is almost always a hard surface compared to the soft mats of the ring.
Just because some guy like Maestro wants to use choreography to promote Silat doesn't make many of the methods and strategies of Silat fundamentally impractical (although MDS clearly uses bs techniques as well like a flashy back kick). They are still mainly way more sensible for self defence than Gracie self defence tactics.

"What works on a soft ring mat works on hard concrete"

You see how foolish your statement sounds when we put it like that?

"What works in a 1 on 1 matchfight works in a multiple attackers spontaneous attack"

"What works with gloves to protect the hands works without gloves where hands can break much easier"

"What works without groin strikes works with groin strikes"

All these are reformulations of your statements and all sound foolish.

Here we have the original legend of US MMA and 'worlds most dangerous man', crumbling to a groin strike and being finished in 2 minutes - while wearing a protective cup.
But I thought that if its not allowed in MMA it doesn't work?


Sorry dude. As much as combat sport is a great preparation for self defence and there is alot of crossover we are talking about two different things and different strategies and approaches to fighting for each. To not realize that is living in a partial fantasy.

Where I struggle with this discussion is, why would training a martial art that fight under a rule set not be as good to have in your arsenal as a self defence martial art if needed while in a self defence situation, even under worst case scenario if's? Why adapting a set of rules so you can fight and rest your skills in a fairly safe environment mean that they are diminished when it comes to self defence situations, do you feel they are uncableable of switching to "no rules" mode if they needed too.

And if a self defence martial art is so much better to use in a self defence situation, why is it no good in a competition setting where there are barely any rules? Why would training a martial art in that situation be any better that the fight ending self defence martial arts. Unless the secret for self defence was to run away (which you can't do in a ring)

While having awareness is good, it's not something you really need to train.

Also mentioning groin shots. I have heard this from a few friends that train krav Maga. But what they don't realise is, a kick to the groin is easy to do for anyone who trains striking with kicks. It's not hard to do, and doesn't need to be drilled.

It always boils down to the teaching at the end of the day. I would rather be in a good WC school if the only alterative was a really poor mcdojo muay Thai gym. But if there was a good Thai gym, or a good WC gym, personally I'd choose to learn muay Thai. Not just for the art but I find the atmosphere is always better, rather than more TMA places where conformity is in the structure.

I also find that in between fights people train for fitness and conditioning. Which are both good in a self defence situation.

Friends I have that train in self defence style classes, after doing some training with them, they "might" be OK against 1 untrained person, but they have no chance against multiple atackers.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

If I'm being completely real, I think if you want safety on the streets, I think being strong in judo/sambo is probably the best skill you can have. Any monkey can throw a punch and hurt someone with it, if push came to shove, I would trust anyone who is confident in judo to be able to smack a guy in the face and then throw him to keep himself safe - and if he trains in sambo he'll probably already know how to do it.

I think understanding choke defence is key.

I also like Uechi Ryu, particularly for its stance with hands out to signify you don't want trouble, which means that while you're trying to de-escalate, you also know how to come in and attack fluently from there. That being said however... I think in most cases someone with any martial arts background is going to be safe enough from an attacker. Most fights are won by a guy who doesn't know martial arts anyway, vs another guy who doesn't know martial arts. I think Master Wong peddles bullshit, but it's not because he says wing chun is going to help you in the streets, it's because he teaches choke defences that don't work. When it comes to style vs style, the style that spars full contact simply wins, there isn't really much of a way around that.

While I think most martial arts (except BJJ because rolling about on concrete is an awful idea) can be useful for self defence, I think stuff like Geoff Thompson is really better for people who's jobs guarantee them some sort of physical conflict. One of the people I train is a bouncer, he had an MMA background and came to me for Muay Thai coaching, a big thing for him was getting a strong teep - and it is just as well because he ended up having a guy come at him with a hammer, and his solution was to blast the guy with the teep he trained with me, to fold the guy - before getting a two on one grip onto the hammer arm and snapping him down to the floor.

In those situations I think a background in sambo, or something like Geoff Thompson's system can be very useful - the issue then is finding a place to learn it that isn't bad. Thompson doesn't appear to teach anymore and good places to train there are sparse.



I like the fence as a concept. I also like how this guy seemingly hates his demonstration partner.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

I agree with andymabobs and themaster that bjj is not completely ideal for self defense but I do think standing chokes and shoulder locks can be a good piece of the puzzle for self defense @shincheckin

 

[Sanserif]

If I'm being completely real, I think if you want safety on the streets, I think being strong in judo/sambo is probably the best skill you can have. Any monkey can throw a punch and hurt someone with it, if push came to shove, I would trust anyone who is confident in judo to be able to smack a guy in the face and then throw him to keep himself safe - and if he trains in sambo he'll probably already know how to do it.

I think understanding choke defence is key.

I also like Uechi Ryu, particularly for its stance with hands out to signify you don't want trouble, which means that while you're trying to de-escalate, you also know how to come in and attack fluently from there. That being said however... I think in most cases someone with any martial arts background is going to be safe enough from an attacker. Most fights are won by a guy who doesn't know martial arts anyway, vs another guy who doesn't know martial arts. I think Master Wong peddles bullshit, but it's not because he says wing chun is going to help you in the streets, it's because he teaches choke defences that don't work. When it comes to style vs style, the style that spars full contact simply wins, there isn't really much of a way around that.

While I think most martial arts (except BJJ because rolling about on concrete is an awful idea) can be useful for self defence, I think stuff like Geoff Thompson is really better for people who's jobs guarantee them some sort of physical conflict. One of the people I train is a bouncer, he had an MMA background and came to me for Muay Thai coaching, a big thing for him was getting a strong teep - and it is just as well because he ended up having a guy come at him with a hammer, and his solution was to blast the guy with the teep he trained with me, to fold the guy - before getting a two on one grip onto the hammer arm and snapping him down to the floor.

In those situations I think a background in sambo, or something like Geoff Thompson's system can be very useful - the issue then is finding a place to learn it that isn't bad. Thompson doesn't appear to teach anymore and good places to train there are sparse.



I like the fence as a concept. I also like how this guy seemingly hates his demonstration partner.

Sambo would be more versatile than most arts as it has punches kicks and grappling. However it may not be as readily available in many other parts of the world. A more widely available art that has unarmed fighting application in most self defence scenarios and has proven effectiveness as well as the ability to be very mobile and thus more useful against multiple opponents is boxing.

Even in the video for failed fence, a person with boxing background would be able to be much more effective with those techniques that are taught there.

 

[Sanserif]

I agree with andymabobs and themaster that bjj is not completely ideal for self defense but I do think standing chokes and shoulder locks can be a good piece of the puzzle for self defense @shincheckin

Bjj is for that eventuality if you are taken down to the ground and it is useful then to be able to escape and get back to ones feet before the assailant's mates can arrive to help him kick your head in.

 

[SandisLL]

I think being strong in judo/sambo is probably the best skill you can have.

if it is possible then combat sambo not sport sambo.

the style that spars full contact simply wins, there isn't really much of a way around that.

This.

It is funny to have a knife defense drills but If these clients had asked casual to stab/ cut with rubber knife imitation plenty of illusions disappeared.
Also it is nice for example attend self defense courses and if they are good, there a bit about laws, situation awarness, how to evalue potential threats and what stuff to look for in ppl.
ok, what should be watched for in different situations is valuable also in security and LEO work, when there is work with valuables and money transport etc.
........ there a lot about situation evaluation, assesment about possible threats etc.
stuff that for casual looks innocent might be clear sign that there high likehood that there are mature criminals that are preparing something to do. before action started.
also very good instructor and legal adwisor might teach about serious things: there is stuff that is too dangerous to tell on da tech street because this might gave full rights to use against you legally carried CCW. or to get in court and pay fines and court expenses.

For example I can't to show you a firearm just because you did not paid bill or politely asked 5 bucks.
If someone here in public will express death threats like I now will kill you, I'm eliglible to use CCW on this person or kick, punch or stab... depends from country of course.
If you tell me : I will punch you, I can't use on you CCW just cos this nonsense.
if told I will kill : yeah, If court ruled out that threat was trustable in these obstacles, then if he died, he died.
threat to kill or induce GBH is enough to have reson to use CCW.
I of course do know that laws are different in each country. Therefore do not copy this, each country and state does have their own laws regards this, be careful.
Also there is stuff that laws changes, therefore it is serious stuff to check and ask legal advisor or lawyer not rely on stuff that had been in legal force 5 years ago. It is worth to know current stuff and ask. before something might happen.


drills in self defense class might be enchanced by inviting for example 190 lbs labourers to spar, ask them to grab and hold hands and.... vs for example 150 lber.
or the same boxer, to test hand traps and punches to the hands, also clinch.
I can't imagine what some hobbyist might do vs for example fulltime just a boxer that is paying money to spar clinch with competitive grapplers. Like some bums with medals at world or continental level. If he is fe 199 lbs for weight in and is able to bear clinch from 225 lber pro, then how hand traps might work against him, done by f.e 150 lbs hobbyist from self defense class?

 

[Sanserif]

Where I struggle with this discussion is, why would training a martial art that fight under a rule set not be as good to have in your arsenal as a self defence martial art if needed while in a self defence situation, even under worst case scenario if's? Why adapting a set of rules so you can fight and rest your skills in a fairly safe environment mean that they are diminished when it comes to self defence situations, do you feel they are uncableable of switching to "no rules" mode if they needed too.

And if a self defence martial art is so much better to use in a self defence situation, why is it no good in a competition setting where there are barely any rules? Why would training a martial art in that situation be any better that the fight ending self defence martial arts. Unless the secret for self defence was to run away (which you can't do in a ring)

While having awareness is good, it's not something you really need to train.

Also mentioning groin shots. I have heard this from a few friends that train krav Maga. But what they don't realise is, a kick to the groin is easy to do for anyone who trains striking with kicks. It's not hard to do, and doesn't need to be drilled.

It always boils down to the teaching at the end of the day. I would rather be in a good WC school if the only alterative was a really poor mcdojo muay Thai gym. But if there was a good Thai gym, or a good WC gym, personally I'd choose to learn muay Thai. Not just for the art but I find the atmosphere is always better, rather than more TMA places where conformity is in the structure.

I also find that in between fights people train for fitness and conditioning. Which are both good in a self defence situation.

Friends I have that train in self defence style classes, after doing some training with them, they "might" be OK against 1 untrained person, but they have no chance against multiple atackers.

I would agree that if one has the time training in the actual martial sports would be far better for developing actual skill and raise ones ceiling than learning a stripped down self defense type course like krav maga that takes techniques from various martial sports anyway. One needs however to add the attitude of self defense and that anything goes as well as to consciously train those illegal strikes and with eg palmstrikes instead o closed fist punches.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

drills in self defense class might be enchanced by inviting for example 190 lbs labourers to spar, ask them to grab and hold hands and.... vs for example 150 lber.
or the same boxer, to test hand traps and punches to the hands, also clinch.
I can't imagine what some hobbyist might do vs for example fulltime just a boxer that is paying money to spar clinch with competitive grapplers. Like some bums with medals at world or continental level. If he is fe 199 lbs for weight in and is able to bear clinch from 225 lber pro, then how hand traps might work against him, done by f.e 150 lbs hobbyist from self defense class?

I'm not trying to insult but your grammar makes it harder and more time consuming to understand what your saying. You do make a lot of good points that I and other posters probably don't read fully 70 percent of time since your posts require too much time to decipher.

Liked the part of your reply I underlined I still don't understand what your trying to say.

 

[SandisLL]

OK, simpler version.
If someone is able to bear clinch from 225 lbs high level pro, how some hobbyist might defeat him with hand traps if hobbyist is 150 lber?
Bearing in mind that for his opponent 0 problems to quickly lift up this 150 lber.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

OK, simpler version.
If someone is able to bear clinch from 225 lbs high level pro, how some hobbyist might defeat him with hand traps if hobbyist is 150 lber?
Bearing in mind that for his opponent 0 problems to quickly lift up this 150 lber.

Truthfully a 150 pound pro would be able to easily clinch a 150 pound hobbyist and throw him from the clinch so I agree with you.

 

[listrahtes]

The best defense against knife without guns is annother knife. Learn arnis from a Well versed philipino. That really is effective. Best from an ex military guy. Have seen it once and was impressed.

 

[SandisLL]

military not rarerly are using some common most effective techniques for this but against them good SD is usually drilled well.
Chaotic psychopaths or more versed are low predictable and even noob might be amazingly fast.

I better prefered to avoid such situations or it it is not possible, use anyhthing available too not only empty hands.

I never had used KD technique against knife but a kick yeah.
I'm not high level about knifes too, when drill but I had some faster guy with fencing competitive exp with rubber knife for fun and I was not happy and get a bit that this was more like lesson for me. ok, he used cuts too and had some tma and boxing training plus a bit kb but nothing too dangerous.
It was a bit amazing that there he was too unpredictable for me. I think he finished me if it was real fight with real knife vs him.