The Rise of Carla Esparza

[Kyojiro Kagenuma]

On point one, I do. Because it's the most important thing. That's the metric in this sport.

On point two you're kidding yourself. The division hasn't gone through some wild overhaul. The #1 contender today is the woman Joanna won the belt from. The #1 contender at 125 is a woman Joanna defended against. Joanna beat both of the women that beat Rose in title fights as well as every other woman who's ever beaten Rose. The biggest and most important difference is Joanna defended against fighters coming off of wins. Rose hasn't done that yet.

Rose may someday win 4 fights in a row. She may defend against someone who's on a winning streak or someone she hasn't already beaten. I'm not denying her her due. I'm just saying she's a middle of the pack champion not a female GSP. If someday she is, I'll be happy for her. I hope she becomes one of the greats. I'm just not going to pretend that winning 4 of 6 title fights with 2 non-consecutive defenses is GOAT status stuff.

The fact that they were not coming of a win is a stupid measuring point when she's the one who gave them that loss. It's not her fault the UFC gave her rematches. Both her opponents were of higher climber than anyone Joanna defended against. Carla has improved, just like Rose improved. In the fight game you either adapt or die.

But fine, if you think Joanna is still ahead, that's a respectable opinion, but even if you think that, Rose is right on her tail and most certainly an all time great of women's mma

 

[jx820]

The fact that they were not coming of a win is a stupid measuring point when she's the one who gave them that loss. It's not her fault the UFC gave her rematches. Both her opponents were of higher climber than anyone Joanna defended against. Carla has improved, just like Rose improved. In the fight game you either adapt or die.

But fine, if you think Joanna is still ahead, that's a respectable opinion, but even if you think that, Rose is right on her tail and most certainly an all time great of women's mma

I disagree

 

[Kyojiro Kagenuma]

That's too melodramatic by a third. I live in a free country and I can assume whatever I want.

I think it's unethical to push a faulty system that pretends to sniff out cheating while acknowledging that it has major failings. Then to pretend fighter X is cheating while fighter Y is allowed to keep doing so. I think "it's only cheating if you get caught" is a wildly unethical system.

I think the ethical approach is to assume everyone is doping and not judge anyone.

But I get it, I believed in USADA when they started it too. Unfortunately, like an unintentional metaphore for this whole conversation... it's the best protocol in the sport, just not a great one.

There's nothing melodramatic about it. It's just the truth. It's unethical and immoral. You can assume whatever you want but that doesn't make it any less misguided or short sighted.

And no, there's literally nothing ethical about that viewpoint. Peds are against the rules and using them is cheating, which is by very definition unethical.

If you don't judge them for it and don't demand punishment, you're encouraging cheating, and if you're encouraging cheating, you're an unethical, dubious individual. Just like the cheaters.

 

[sfer1]

On point one, I do. Because it's the most important thing. That's the metric in this sport.

On point two you're kidding yourself. The division hasn't gone through some wild overhaul. The #1 contender today is the woman Joanna won the belt from. The #1 contender at 125 is a woman Joanna defended against. Joanna beat both of the women that beat Rose in title fights as well as every other woman who's ever beaten Rose. The biggest and most important difference is Joanna defended against fighters coming off of wins. Rose hasn't done that yet.

Rose may someday win 4 fights in a row. She may defend against someone who's on a winning streak or someone she hasn't already beaten. I'm not denying her her due. I'm just saying she's a middle of the pack champion not a female GSP. If someday she is, I'll be happy for her. I hope she becomes one of the greats. I'm just not going to pretend that winning 4 of 6 title fights with 2 non-consecutive defenses is GOAT status stuff.

Joanna had vast pro experience in another combat sport and took advantage of the division being in formation. Once the division evolved, she started looking less impressive. She's 2-4 in her last 6. Rose even beat her at her own game twice. It's much harder to have several consecutive title defenses these days.

 

[Kyojiro Kagenuma]

I disagree

Believe what you want, I suppose.

 

[jx820]

There's nothing melodramatic about it. It's just the truth. It's unethical and immoral. You can assume whatever you want but that doesn't make it any less misguided or short sighted.

And no, there's literally nothing ethical about that viewpoint. Peds are against the rules and using them is cheating, which is by very definition unethical.

If you don't judge them for it and don't demand punishment, you're encouraging cheating, and if you're encouraging cheating, you're an unethical, dubious individual. Just like the cheaters.

You know what... this post makes me want to retract the melodramatic claim.

 

[Rorschachxx]

I'll eat crow for this one, but I feel like Carla is completely outmatched in this one. I just dont see any scenario (outside of something crazy) where she can beat Rose. But hey, its MMA, anything can happen and thats why we love it.

 

[jx820]

Joanna had vast pro experience in another combat sport and took advantage of the division being in formation. Once the division evolved, she started looking less impressive. She's 2-4 in her last 6. Rose even beat her at her own game twice. It's much harder to have several consecutive title defenses these days.

Revisionist history. Joanna had too many wars and lost a step. The division is the same.

 

[Kyojiro Kagenuma]

Revisionist history. Joanna had too many wars and lost a step. The division is the same.

It is not, it's clearly evolved. Fighters started catching up to Joanna, it's as simple as that. It doesn't make Joanna any less good, but the division has better fighters now

 

[sfer1]

Revisionist history. Joanna had too many wars and lost a step. The division is the same.

No, it's not. Fighters are more skilled and well-rounded now. When Joanna and Rose first fought each other, everyone was saying Rose's only chance to win would be by submission. Rose had improved to become an even better striker than Joanna tough. What has Joanna improved on in the last 7 years?

 

[Ghostoftheville]

The fact that Miesha is older than Rose and has been in the game longer is totally irrelevant. Rose has accomplished more, won more titles and fought better competition to win them.

Rose has surpassed Miesha.

She hasn't won more titles though. They both have 2 title reigns. The Strikeforce title became the ufc title.

Miesha being older and starting before Rose is very relevent as you're showing an extreme recency bias. They both fought the best competition available, they both have been the top fighter in their respective divisions.

If anything, Tate was actually perceived as a top fighter without the title while Rose wasn't placed in that category until she pulled off the upset.

 

[sfer1]

She hasn't won more titles though. They both have 2 title reigns. The Strikeforce title became the ufc title.

Miesha being older and starting before Rose is very relevent as you're showing an extreme recency bias. They both fought the best competition available, they both have been the top fighter in their respective divisions.

If anything, Tate was actually perceived as a top fighter without the title while Rose wasn't placed in that category until she pulled off the upset.

Yes, and she has looked mediocre against every single decent opponent she's faced.

After 14 years fighting professionally in MMA, she still can't strike for shit. She's an OK wrestler at best. Just admit you like her for her fake boobs, so we can move on from this silly discussion.

 

[jx820]

No, it's not. Fighters are more skilled and well-rounded now. When Joanna and Rose first fought each other, everyone was saying Rose's only chance to win would be by submission. Rose had improved to become an even better striker than Joanna tough. What has Joanna improved on in the last 7 years?

It is not, it's clearly evolved. Fighters started catching up to Joanna, it's as simple as that. It doesn't make Joanna any less good, but the division has better fighters now

It clearly hasn't:

The first EVER champ and Jonna's first title fight is the current #1 contender. Joanna's first defense (Penne) is in the top 15 today. Her 3rd (Gadelha) is top 10. Her 5th defense is #1 contender at 125 right now (and took Rose's belt). Only 2 of her title fights are not currently ranked at the top of their division. The only better fighter in this equation is Zhang.

And credit to Rose, those Zhang fights are 2 consecutive good wins.

 

[randumo24]

On point one, I do. Because it's the most important thing. That's the metric in this sport.

On point two you're kidding yourself. The division hasn't gone through some wild overhaul. The #1 contender today is the woman Joanna won the belt from. The #1 contender at 125 is a woman Joanna defended against. Joanna beat both of the women that beat Rose in title fights as well as every other woman who's ever beaten Rose. The biggest and most important difference is Joanna defended against fighters coming off of wins. Rose hasn't done that yet.

Rose may someday win 4 fights in a row. She may defend against someone who's on a winning streak or someone she hasn't already beaten. I'm not denying her her due. I'm just saying she's a middle of the pack champion not a female GSP. If someday she is, I'll be happy for her. I hope she becomes one of the greats. I'm just not going to pretend that winning 4 of 6 title fights with 2 non-consecutive defenses is GOAT status stuff.

Carla is only the number 1 contender because Rose has had to face the three other women that were very clearly contenders ahead of her 6 times in the last 4 years. The only people that don't have Rose as the very clear favorite in that fight are the delusional people who think that Carla is just going to walk past the massive striking advantage, and somehow Rose has absolutely no TD defense.

Joanna faced lesser competition, pure & simple. She might have had a nice streak, but they faced each other when Joanna was in her prime and Rose was even before her's at 25 and Rose came out of that 2-0. Arguing that Joanna is better than Rose just because she had a longer run when they have literally fought with Joanna at an advantage and Rose still coming out on top both times seems silly to me. Especially since both fights played out on the feet, exactly the only place where Joanna would have a chance.

 

[sfer1]

It clearly hasn't:

The first EVER champ and Jonna's first title fight is the current #1 contender. Joanna's first defense (Penne) is in the top 15 today. Her 3rd (Gadelha) is top 10. Her 5th defense is #1 contender at 125 right now (and took Rose's belt). Only 2 of her title fights are not currently ranked at the top of their division. The only better fighter in this equation is Zhang.

And credit to Rose, those Zhang fights are 2 consecutive good wins.

All those girls improved to stay relevant. Rose, to the point of surpassing Joanna at what she does best.

If you think Andrade hasn't improved more than Joanna, let's have them fight again and see how it goes.

 

[Ghostoftheville]

So, you're whole argument rests on Miesha being older and beating cans when WMMA was still in diapers.

Miesha has looked mediocre against every single decent opponent she's faced.

So did you just choose to ignore the second part of my post where I'm talking about rose not facing a grappler since losing to Carla?

It's funny that you consider Tate a can crusher when outside of her title fights Rose has mostly fought women who belong at atom weight. And 3 of her last 4 wins are super close decisions.

 

[Ghostoftheville]

Yes, and she has looked mediocre against every single decent opponent she's faced.

After 14 years fighting professionally in MMA, she still can't strike for shit. She's an OK wrestler at best. Just admit you like her for her fake boobs, so we can move on from this silly discussion.

I'm more of an ass man, don't care for fake parts. Tate has subpar striking, Rose has at best an average ground game.

 

[sfer1]

I'm more of an ass man, don't care for fake parts. Tate has subpar striking, Rose has at best an average ground game.

45% of Rose's wins came by submission (and that's not counting her 3 submissions in TUF) vs 36% of Miesha's.

 

[560ti]

 

[jx820]

If you think Andrade hasn't improved more than Joanna, let's have them fight again and see how it goes.

So this is one of those magical divisions where most people get a lot better with age and lots of wear and tear? Esparza is not better at 34 than she was at 28. That's ridiculous.

What do you mean "let's have them fight"? Which one of us do you think is in charge of that?