The Proganda thread: warning lots of UFC stuff

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by Marc A, Aug 14, 2016.

  1. Marc A

    Marc A Being broke is being dishonest

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    FOR BOXING: A YEAR OF DECISION
    Contrary to the popular impression, boxing is not dead. There are stirrings of life in the eight divisions, ranked by SI (below), and promise that in 1965 the sport will head back to rugged good health

    By Robert H. Boyle


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    View Cover

    Jan. 04, 1965


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    Original Layout

    After almost 20 years, many of them happy and profitable, network television boxing last fall sank into a grave dug mostly by itself. Gone because of the unequal competition with TV were more than 300 small fight clubs, the source of TV's boxing talent. But, by leaving, television paradoxically may have breathed new life into the sport. There are signs that 1965 could be the year when, despite the malodorous run-ins with policemen by leading heavyweight contenders, boxing begins to return to health.

    "One of the few promoters still running steady is Unsinkable Sam Silverman up in Massachusetts," says Al Braverman, a New York fight manager who has taken to running an art gallery. "But some others are ready to come back. Boxing will boom again as soon as the small clubs open to bring out the talent." Despite the economic pinch—Don Toro Smith, a heavyweight managed by Braverman, is happy to get $60 for six rounds from Unsinkable Sam in New Bedford or Pittsfield—there seems to be little lack of available youngsters. The gyms are glutted. "My gym is full," says Chris Dundee, the Miami promoter. "I have a gym full of boys," says Cus D'Amato in New York, "but they get disgusted because they have no place to fight."

    Nonetheless, a boy with talent—and a punch—is welcome even now. The main divisions have begun to wear thin with reruns of some of the same old faces, and the champions are mostly artful dodgers, from Cassius Clay, who fortunately is also a puncher, on down through to Carlos Ortiz, the lightweight champion. The day of the mauler and the puncher, the era of the Sonny Listons and Gene Fullmers, the Carmen Basilios and Dick Tigers, appears to be over for the nonce.

    Clay, the best and most exciting of today's champions, is scheduled to fight Liston in late spring, and he should win again. Liston was in the shape of his life for the postponed fight last November, but now he is beering it up and wrestling with tag teams of Denver police. Liston's odd behavior could make even the World Boxing Association seem a sensible organization—if its own actions were not even more eccentric. The WBA has ruled with no logic whatever that the Ernie Terrell-Eddie Machen fight in Chicago this February will be for the heavyweight title. Terrell should win, but no one, with the exception of his loud manager, Julie Isaacson, will take the championship seriously. The winner of the Terrell-Machen fight is supposed to meet the winner of the George Chuvalo-Floyd Patterson match in Madison Square Garden on February 1. Here may be the first surprise of the year: a number of knowing boxing men pick Chuvalo to win by a knockout. Yet, peculiarly, the consensus is that Terrell would lick Chuvalo, but Patterson would beat Terrell—not that it really matters so long as Cassius is around. Aside from Chuvalo, the most promising "new" heavyweight is posturing, talkative Oscar Bonavena, a Cassius Clay from down Argentina way. He has been impressive, but he has had only eight fights and cannot be classed with name fighters in the division.
     
  2. Marc A

    Marc A Being broke is being dishonest

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    The situation in the light-heavyweight division is more desperate. Willie Pastrano has been punching harder since winning the title, but this is a relative thing and one wonders what keeps him up there. Harold Johnson, from whom Pastrano took the title in an outrageous decision in Las Vegas, has been embalmed for all practical purposes because he is such a dull fellow to watch. ("It's his own fault," says D'Amato. "Professional boxing has to entertain the public") The one hope in sight is D'Amato's José Torres, who last month knocked out Bobo Olson in the first round. Torres can campaign as either a light heavy or a middleweight.

    The most artful dodger of all is Joey Giardello, the middleweight champion. A counterpuncher to an extreme, he is also a fancy stepper when it comes to picking the place to fight. Usually it is Philadelphia, but on occasion he can bestir himself to travel 60 miles to Atlantic City, where the officials are fond of Philadelphians. His most formidable opponent is Joey Archer, but when and, more important, where the two will agree to meet is anyone's guess. "Archer would beat him in New York," says Braverman. "Archer holds the record for split decisions in the Garden. He's got the legs and style to beat a Giardello, but not in Philadelphia or Atlantic City. What's the sense of kidding? They go on Barren Island, and Archer's got a chance." Dick Tiger remains dangerous, but he has a fatal flaw. He cannot fight boxers, and both Giardello and Archer are boxers, even outside Philadelphia and New York. Tiger has already lost to both.

    The pickings among the leaders of the welterweight division are slim, so slim in fact that Emile Griffith, the champion, has been fighting middleweights. Next to Griffith are Luis Rodriguez, who used to alternate the title with Griffith like two kids playing one-a-cat, and José Stable, a strong puncher
     
  3. Marc A

    Marc A Being broke is being dishonest

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    But there are some promising young welterweights coming along who may soon make this division the most exciting in boxing. Like most other emerging fighters, they will have a punch. The reason for this is money. Promoters know that punchers draw a crowd, and they are reluctant in this year of revival to encourage cute boxers. The best welterweight is Carmelo Hernandez, winner of the 1964 Golden Gloves Novice Class, who already has won seven pro fights, four by knockouts. "It's not the knockouts that impress me," says Griffith, "but the skill he showed in getting them." Not far behind Hernandez are Stan Hayward of Philadelphia, rated fifth, and Willie Ludick, a South African.

    Like Griffith, Carlos Ortiz, the lightweight champion, will step up a notch to the welterweights when not on his annual triumphal world tour demolishing contenders. Already his expedition is being planned with D-day efficiency by his manager, Honest Bill Daly. "He's going to defend his title twice in 1965," says Honest Bill. "It looks like the first defense will be in Kingston, Jamaica in early February against Bunny Grant—that's G-R-A-N-T—and the second defense the latter part of March in Panama against Ismael Laguna—that's I-S-M-A-E-L L-A-G-U-N-A—their No. 1 featherweight. And possibly a third defense in Puerto Rico in May. Anyplace where the money is, regardless of the receptions we get in the different countries."

    The three other divisions—feather, bantam and flyweight—are inactive in the U.S., but in the rest of the world they command great respect. Unhappily, Featherweight Sugar Ramos, the colorful displaced Cuban, now from Mexico City, has apparently retired from the ring. Under heavy pressure from his mother to quit ever since Davey Moore died after their title fight in Los Angeles (Ramos had previously killed another man in the ring), Ramos lost his zest for fighting. He managed to beat Floyd Robertson on a highly controversial decision in Ghana, but he lost his title to Mexico's Vicente Saldivar and, unless he changes his mind, is through for good.

    Pone Kingpetch may be, too, if he doesn't hurry up and defend his flyweight title. It is a year since he fought, and the WBA is itching to vacate his title. In September it ordered him to defend against Salvatore Burruni by Dec. 16 "or else." The else turned out to be an extension to Jan. 1. The WBA has no hard feelings against Eder Jofre, the Brazilian who is world bantamweight champion and a very busy fighter. Jofre may be the best fighter going today, but few Americans have seen him fight, for the simple reason that he can make a fortune in such places as S√£o Paulo, Manila and Tokyo. "Boxing is going to have a hard job to come on in the States," says Daly. "Around the world, it's a sensational thing. When we travel, people say to us, 'What's the matter? Are Americans getting soft?' "

    No, just wary. Subjected to a barrage of stinkers in the days of TV, the public has become very wise. Says John Condon, the Garden publicist: "We promoted the hell out of Bartels and Mangiapane, a neighborhood grudge fight, and we got all kinds of ink. But the public didn't buy it. The fans figured they'd wait until the next time around to see if the two were worth the price."

    By contrast, Condon says, the Patterson-Chuvalo fight will be a sellout. It brings together two very competitive name fighters. (There will, incidentally, be more such fights this year. If they are to draw any crowds at all, the top contenders will have to fight each other, a prospect they despise but will have to live with if they are to eat.) Chuvalo is, moreover, the only white heavyweight near contention, and he owes his prominence to one victory, a TKO over Doug Jones. But where a new Chuvalo or even a new Jones will develop is a problem.

    One man who thinks he may have the answer is Fred Brooks, the president of Sportsvision, the closed-circuit-TV company. Brooks has lined up a dozen or so promoters, from Unsinkable Sam to George Parnassus on the West Coast, who would be willing to stage live fights on the same card with a top closed-circuit bout. The plan calls for two promotions a month to cut the rental of transmission lines. If successful, the Brooks plan would give young fighters experience, exposure and a decent payday at the same time it offered good purse money for a continuing schedule of name fighters. Who knows? Given such a boost, the small fight clubs might catch on again. Left for dead by network TV, boxing could revive with intelligent closed-circuit programming, and 1965 should be the year of decision


    http://www.si.com/vault/1965/01/04/607242/for-boxing-a-year-of-decision
     
  4. Marc A

    Marc A Being broke is being dishonest

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  5. LogicalInsanity

    LogicalInsanity Free RR! Belt

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    Jesus...
     
  6. robjenkins2

    robjenkins2 Gold Belt

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  7. Marc A

    Marc A Being broke is being dishonest

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    Understanding A Fighter’s Temperament
    Written by RossOctober 17th, 2014 1 Comment
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    Over the years, I’ve learned many valuable lessons in the gym that wouldn’t make sense on paper. I say this as both an athlete and perhaps more importantly as a trainer. There are times when it makes sense to go against the grain and do things that others may not understand. Success as a trainer depends on much more than your knowledge of anatomy and kinesiology. The ideal solution to individual needs cannot always be calculated scientifically or determined mathematically. Often times, the temperament of the athlete will dictate the ideal approach.


    As a boxing trainer, I look up to the legendary Cus D’Amato as perhaps the greatest example of this concept. Cus is most known for his work with Mike Tyson, but he was also instrumental in the development of other Hall of Fame fighters such as Jose Torres and Floyd Patterson. Cus was truly a student of the game and understood the inner workings of a fighter’s mind. He was the polar opposite of the clipboard trainers who have become so common today. Cus had brilliant insights into the sport and a deep understanding about the psychology of fear and discipline.

    When Cus developed an athlete, he wasn’t focused solely on physical attributes. Boxing training for Cus involved much more than boxing. He did as much for the mind as he did for the body. There is no better example of physical and mental development than that of a young Mike Tyson. Tyson came to Cus D’Amato as a youngster who lacked discipline and was mentally unstable. He was far from the dominant force that he became as a young heavyweight.

    Mike Tyson did not become the youngest heavyweight champion by accident. Everything that Cus did with Tyson was done for a reason. There was a method to his madness. Ironically, many of today’s keyboard gurus who have never trained anyone often criticize the workouts and regimen that Tyson performed. For instance, the internet is filled with discussions about Tyson’s routine as a youngster. Many question why he trained 7 days a week, or why he performed hundreds of repetitions of calisthenics. Others ask why he ran at such an early hour in the morning. Countless pencil pushers have stated that such frequent and intense work could lead to overtraining and was everything but optimal.

    Cus D’Amato knew better however. He knew what he had in Tyson. Yes, he was naturally strong, but Tyson was also mentally fragile. You can see an example of his early mindset in the video below. You’ll see how Tyson was plagued by fear and insecurities.
     
  8. Marc A

    Marc A Being broke is being dishonest

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    Cus knew of Tyson’s deficiencies and tailored the training accordingly. He had to turn Tyson into a conditioning machine for reasons that go far beyond the physical. For example, Cus stated the following in regards to a fighter’s development:

    I get them in excellent condition… Knowing how the mind is and the tricks it plays on a person and how an individual will always look to avoid a confrontation with something that is intimidating, I remove all possible excuses they’re going to have before they get in there. By getting them in excellent condition, they can’t say when they get tired that they’re not in shape.

    Cus also knew of the trouble that Tyson had been in as a youngster. Mike Tyson was far from a saint when he was taken in by Cus D’Amato. Tyson had been in and out of trouble his entire life. As a result, it is no surprise that Cus kept Tyson busy throughout the day. The last thing that you want a troubled teen to do is wander off on his own. Instead, you keep him busy even if it means having him do more work than it makes sense to do. Cus wasn’t just building Tyson’s body. He was developing mental toughness in someone who didn’t have it. He was developing discipline in a fighter who was young and reckless.

    It was the discipline and knowledge that Cus gave Tyson that led to his success as a young pro. Sure, there will always be debates about the specifics of Tyson’s training and perhaps even exaggerated tales, but there is no denying that he worked extremely hard for several hours each day. And Tyson’s Spartan-like regimen continued as a young pro as is evident in the video below.
     
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  9. robjenkins2

    robjenkins2 Gold Belt

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  10. Marc A

    Marc A Being broke is being dishonest

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    As for the success of Cus D’Amato’s methods, it is undeniable how Tyson’s career slowly fell apart when Cus died and after the firing of Kevin Rooney (who had been tutored by Cus). Once Tyson lost the discipline that Cus worked so carefully to construct, the physical force that Tyson had become slowly came crashing down.

    In summary, the development of a fighter entails much more than the regimen you see on paper. To be a successful trainer, you must communicate with your athletes. You need to know what makes them tick. You need to know what distracts them and what has hampered them before. Don’t just focus on physical development, but also understand the significance of the fighter’s temperament.

    Analyze each athlete as the unique individual that he or she is. What works for one may not work for another. Fighters are human beings, not robots. To develop a fighter, you will need much more than book knowledge. You will need to carefully construct both the physical and mental side of the individual. Cus D’Amato laid out the blueprint for such an approach. His work should be studied by all aspiring trainers and fighters. There is always something to learn from the greats who came before us.


    http://rossboxing.com/2014/10/17/understanding-temperament-mike-tyson-cus-damato/
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2016
  11. george-oli

    george-oli Brown Belt

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    Just cant see Conor winning. He isnt KOing Nate and he isnt a Cardio guy so how is he going to win? NAte can go and go and go and go, Conor has been 3 rounds once, not looking good imo.
     
  12. Canelo

    Canelo Purple Belt

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    Is Conor not being a cardio guy purely based on him gassing against Nate? He won the 3rd round against Max Holloway grappling with one leg, that was after an explosive first two rounds of striking, his cardio didn't look an issue in that fight.

    Certain people don't like to admit it but the first Diaz fight had special circumstances, quite a few actually. His preparation was for from ideal and a world away from what he is doing now.

    For the rematch he has been much more scientific in his cardio training, calculating his V02max etc and monitoring his improvements over the course of the camp, these are the same techniques that saw the likes of RDA turn into cardio monsters. He has been sparring exclusively with tall, world class southpaws and has had a 10 week camp with a much BJJ world champion who would tie Nate into a knot. In the first fight he was sparring with Artem and rolling with Kavanagh. Even Nate has admitted that Conor has been brought in real guys this time.

    With that said, Nate is just a lot bigger naturally, he's taller, longer and has a good 15lbs natural weight advantage. He will probably make more use of that this time and Conor will likely come in smaller than he did the first time. The size and pressure could end up being too much by the later rounds.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see Conor win a decision or late stoppage though, he's the better boxer and should still be able to hit Diaz at will, he just needs a more varied and patient attack with the cardio to go with it. Diaz just needs to put it on him, he's not going to be super slick because he's had a full camp, he's never been particularly slick and his defense has always relied on him taking shots. It's going to be another rough night for him
    but if he can maintain the pressure and stay upright, he will always be the favourite in the final rounds.
     
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  13. george-oli

    george-oli Brown Belt

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    Yeah I pretty much based it on him gassing in less than two rounds.

    He may well get better, most likely, but I just see him doing the same things as before. Punching the shit out of Nate and nate not falling over, then Conor gasses a little later than before and gets slapped around. My biggest question is will he shoot this time when he is looks like gassing?

    Conor will get better but he wont be THAT much better than when he was a few months ago. Nate will improve by more than what Conor will, simply because last time he basically got off the couch and tapped him out.

    I could be wrong and Conor could win.
     
  14. Canelo

    Canelo Purple Belt

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    Actually preparing for a specific opponent and catering your entire camp towards them can bring HUGE improvements, it's a part of the game in which MMA fighters are way behind with. You still have world class fighters like Frankie Edgar turning up to a Gracie BJJ class in his Gi to prepare for Aldo, and simply sparring with whoever he has in camp.You'd never see a top level boxer doing this, camps should always be specifically tuned to your opponent and we will see how that helps Conor, as its the first time he's done it.

    I'm not sure what Diaz is going to do much better at, his fans seem to think a full camp is going to give him slick defensive skills he has never had before, I can't see it, Diaz will box the same way he always has done. Unfortunately for him his success for him in this fight will once again come down to whether he can absorb the punishment and stay in the fight, only he might have to absorb it for longer this time. That's not just his chin either, it's the scar tissue that will no doubt be targeted.
     
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  15. george-oli

    george-oli Brown Belt

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    How can you say this, when the paragraph above you have detailed why a camp tuned to your opponent can bring HUGE improvements, LOL. The fact that he is actually having a camp he should be better at every thing.
     
  16. Canelo

    Canelo Purple Belt

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    Because Diaz has always had serious camps, he is one of the few guys who does it properly. He has been training with top ten guys his whole career. He needs a big camp much less than Conor does, he has been fighting with his style for over 10 years and could turn up any given day and put on a show. He might have fought on 11 days but when you are as experienced as he is with such a basic style, it doesn't take you long to get to where you need to be. BIsping is another example, he come straight off a movie set and it didn't take him long to get where he needed to be.

    Conor has never had a camp like this before and has never taken his training this seriously, there's more potential for him to improve. Nate will be in better shape, although he will probably be heavier, he will be sharper. He won't suddenly have super slick defense and be able to box circles around Conor like some people are suggesting. He will still lose the stand up of the fight until either Conor gasses or he can get the fight on the ground or in the clinch.
     
  17. george-oli

    george-oli Brown Belt

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    Yeah but he didnt have a serious camp last time. You said " im not sure where NAte is going to do much better at". Now if he had had a full camp with sparring, actual training and game plans tuned toward beating Conor then I would agree, but he didnt. He had next to nothing. So when he has an actual camp tuned for Conor, he will obviously get better at many things, or do you think 11 day Nate is the same as a full camp for Conor Nate?
     
  18. Marc A

    Marc A Being broke is being dishonest

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    Boxing Wisdom, Old School
    Bernard Hopkins On Discipline
    Written by Ross on November 3rd, 2014. 2 Comments


    In less than a week, Bernard Hopkins is scheduled to fight the dangerous Sergey Kovalev in a light heavyweight world championship bout. Hopkins will enter the ring just two months shy of his 50th birthday. Win, lose, or draw, Hopkins will exit the ring as a legendary fighter who has defied father time for longer than anyone could have guessed. Hopkins is without question the undisputed champion of longevity. All young fighters could benefit by listening to his advice and following his example.


    Bernard shares some of his wisdom in the video below. He touches upon several seemingly obvious points that countless fighters fail to consider.
     
  19. Marc A

    Marc A Being broke is being dishonest

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    Many fighters live clean while away at training camp, yet abandon that discipline as soon as the fight is over. Such fighters commonly gain excessive amounts of weight in between fights. As a result, much of their training camp is wasted trying to lose weight, rather than focusing on the upcoming opponent.

    Bernard Hopkins is one of the rare fighters who stay in shape throughout the year. He eats clean and takes care of his body 365 days a year. His extreme discipline does not expire after a 6 week training camp. It has survived and continually evolved ever since he began fighting professionally in 1988.

    In the words of his trainer Nazeem Richardson;


    http://rossboxing.com/2014/11/03/long-lasting-bernard-hopkins/
     
  20. Marc A

    Marc A Being broke is being dishonest

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    Fighters go have camps. It’s not a camp for Bernard, it’s a lifestyle.”

    Bernard is also the type of fighter who is clearly rooted in the fundamentals of the sweet science. Hopkins has never had an overly exciting or flashy style. He is an old school fighter who does whatever he needs to do to win. He is not concerned about keyboard warriors who may not appreciate his style. Hopkins does not enter the ring to please everyone. He enters the ring to win, and his style has certainly contributed to his longevity (as discussed recently).

    Putting 1988 Into Perspective
    When considering Bernard’s career, many boxing fans fail to appreciate just how long he has been around. We all know that Hopkins has fought well in his 40s, but it is almost impossible to imagine that he first fought professionally in 1988.
     

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