The Problem Isn't Ngannou or His Agent

[honzo]

Most mma fighters have an opportunity to switch to boxing if they want…….it’s not that hard to do.

What’s hard is actually making money in boxing once they switch.

Really?

 

[Rear Naked Toke]

The fight with Benson was the lowest rated Fox card ever.

The rematch between Maynard and Nate was so horrifically bad (another main event) that the UFC gave Frankie Edgar a TS even though the Maynard/Nate rematch was a number 1 contender's fight.

The UFC tried to push Nate. The casual fans weren't behind him yet. Numbers don't lie.

You say ever like the first Fox card ever wasn't only 13 months before the Benson fight, which was also the second time Nate headlined a Fox card in 7 months. Casuals or not, Benson vs Nate was all but guaranteed to do less numbers than the previous Fox cards. The first one would get better numbers because, well, it was the first one and people were curious, and it was headlined by Cain and JDS.

Rashad was more well known than Nate, and only the second Fox card, so new people were curious. And only in recent years would Nate do better numbers than Shogun on any platform.

It's also fair to mention that Benson vs Nate generated more ticket revenue than any of the previous Fox cards, and that was in Seattle.

Not sure why you mentioned the Frankie swap in reference to Nate; Nate lost. If anything, that was a shot at Gray, he's the one that got pulled out of his position. There's also the factor that Nate and Gray's first fight was a first round knockout, so naturally there would be high expectations going into the rematch, and a lot of disappointment coming out of it - regardless of TV ratings.

 

[skarface]

Most mma fighters have an opportunity to switch to boxing if they want…….it’s not that hard to do.

What’s hard is actually making money in boxing once they switch.

Didn't Woodley made a ton of money fighting Jake paul twice?

 

[Rear Naked Toke]

Didn't Woodley made a ton of money fighting Jake paul twice?

How much money would he have made in boxing if it wasn't against Jake Paul?

 

[skarface]

How much money would he have made in boxing if it wasn't against Jake Paul?

Theres money to be made fighting influencers
Or retired/past prime boxers

 

[fedorthegoat777]

Don't know if this has been posted in this thread before (or another thread) but I just read this :

https://www.mmamania.com/2022/1/2/2...a-new-ufc-contract-would-have-to-allow-boxing

Ngannou is absolutely delusional on multiple levels.

1) there is no chance UFC sign him to a new contract where they allow him to do boxing.
2) he has close to zero chance against boxers of the level of Wilder or Fury. He has NO boxing record at all (I just checked on boxrec.com)

He is just plain greedy, and this (to me at least) confirms it.
- If you wanna box then RETIRE from MMA and try to work your way up in boxing. I don't think he'll get very far, and certainly there's no reason why he should step into his first boxing match against people of the caliber of Wilder or Fury. Go fight 5 good pro HW boxers and we'll see how you do. MMA and boxing are different.

He is not allowed to retire from MMA. That is the problem.

 

[Rear Naked Toke]

Theres money to be made fighting influencers
Or retired/past prime boxers

Absolutely, but I think the point the other poster was trying to make was that any MMA fighters that aren't already well known could box instead but they wouldn't immediately make a lot of money in boxing just simply because it's boxing. They would not have access to those types of fights.

Woodley's position is one that most MMA fighters are not in.

 

[Jozo Sha]

TS, don't know you, but goddamn, you have brought the receipts and provided a great, intelligently and provocative thread. Thanks.

 

[Rear Naked Toke]

TS, don't know you, but goddamn, you have brought the receipts and provided a great, intelligently and provocative thread. Thanks.

 

[MoneyMcGrabber]

See, lil insecure child, I’m sorry to hurt your feelings.
One day you’ll grow up (maybe) and you’ll see that some guy talking shit to you in an internet forum is nothing to worry about.
Till then, some folks like me will be getting two quotes for a post flaming your shitty ideas we don’t even remember we made.
So be good, and try to be a lil bit more manly, you might be better some time.

So you admit you ride Dana?

 

[Willy Knuckles]

See, lil insecure child, I’m sorry to hurt your feelings.
One day you’ll grow up (maybe) and you’ll see that some guy talking shit to you in an internet forum is nothing to worry about.
Till then, some folks like me will be getting two quotes for a post flaming your shitty ideas we don’t even remember we made.
So be good, and try to be a lil bit more manly, you might be better some time.

Those two posts combined are less words than this. Lol you suck

 

[FIghtxIQ]

Most mma fighters have an opportunity to switch to boxing if they want…….it’s not that hard to do.

What’s hard is actually making money in boxing once they switch.

It's actually hard to do if they want a career and not just chasing a fight with Jake Paul. That's why not many are switching. If it was so easy everyone would be crossing over to boxing for the boxing money. Boxing is the highest paying combat sport. So if it's money fighters are after they would be switching to boxing if they could. All the major champions make more than UFC champions except for a select few. The top 10 ranked boxers is making more than the top 10 ranked UFC fighters as well. So it's not hard to make money in boxing if you have high level boxing and can get to those levels.

Also the money cross over fights are also an option. But those are more one off type fights.

 

[FIghtxIQ]

None of that is a new discovery for MMA fighters, they already know the contracts are shit and that they're paid less than some boxers, but some are paid more than most boxers. Transitioning to boxing is not some kind of mega solution for most MMA fighters' financial woes, especially considering that boxing is much more dangerous than MMA.

I'm saying UFC won't sign Jake because he has no business being in the UFC, it has nothing to do with what he's saying in the media. I'm not sure how you think that I'm agreeing with you. So far, I've agreed with nothing that you've said. Also, boxing is far more corrupt than MMA, and you're talking about it like it's greener pastures. Is the money better, yes, for a very select few.

If Jake wasn't already an internet star, he would not be making the type of money in boxing that he is right now. Name one other boxer that's 5-0 that draws any kind of attention or makes the kind of money Jake does, or made millions in their debut. You're talking about Jake like he's some sort of standard when he's probably the largest anomaly in the history of combat sports.

The road map that you're presenting is that an MMA fighter can simply defy the enormous odds already stacked against them, get signed by UFC, become a household name, then transition to boxing to make more money.

They would have better odds playing the lottery.

You don't seem to have a great understanding of everything lol. Dana was interested in the Paul brothers. He was trying to get them to UFC secretly and Jake called him out on it. That's probably why he doesn't like Dana. He made comments about Jake Paul and his boxing in the media but was also contacting them trying to sign them.

You don't have to agree with anything I said because I don't agree with anything you said. There's a difference between knowing UFC fighter pay is low and UFC contracts is a bad deal compared to boxing, compared to putting it out in public while having a public dispute with the UFC president about fighter pay and their contracts. You seem to think all press is good press, what is the outcome of press like this for UFC? What are the positives? Can you name them for us?

I'm not saying mma fighters can just transition into boxing, the point is boxing contracts are protected by the Ali Act and mma fighters have no protections. So all this just highlights that fact even more for mma fighters. None of this is good press for mma or UFC.

Like others have said before, Jake and Logan can't be controlled by UFC. They promote themselves, have their own promotion, and co-promote with boxing promotions. They don't need UFC. MMA fighters can't say what Jake Paul is saying because they would be worried about their careers. Jake and Logan wouldn't give up the freedom they have over their careers, fights, negotiations, etc to be controlled by UFC.

Not every fighter will be able to do this. Even Mayweather didn't start his career like this, he eventually got to that point once he learned the game during his career. Jake and Logan were able to start off their careers like this since they already had a lot of money going in to hire a team to fill them in on the business and do things right from the start. Mayweather had to buy out his own contract before in order to be his own promoter.

 

[Rear Naked Toke]

You don't seem to have a great understanding of everything lol. Dana was interested in the Paul brothers. He was trying to get them to UFC secretly and Jake called him out on it. That's probably why he doesn't like Dana. He made comments about Jake Paul and his boxing in the media but was also contacting them trying to sign them.

You don't have to agree with anything I said because I don't agree with anything you said. There's a difference between knowing UFC fighter pay is low and UFC contracts is a bad deal compared to boxing, compared to putting it out in public while having a public dispute with the UFC president about fighter pay and their contracts. You seem to think all press is good press, what is the outcome of press like this for UFC? What are the positives? Can you name them for us?

I'm not saying mma fighters can just transition into boxing, the point is boxing contracts are protected by the Ali Act and mma fighters have no protections. So all this just highlights that fact even more for mma fighters. None of this is good press for mma or UFC.

Like others have said before, Jake and Logan can't be controlled by UFC. They promote themselves, have their own promotion, and co-promote with boxing promotions. They don't need UFC. MMA fighters can't say what Jake Paul is saying because they would be worried about their careers. Jake and Logan wouldn't give up the freedom they have over their careers, fights, negotiations, etc to be controlled by UFC.

Not every fighter will be able to do this. Even Mayweather didn't start his career like this, he eventually got to that point once he learned the game during his career. Jake and Logan were able to start off their careers like this since they already had a lot of money going in to hire a team to fill them in on the business and do things right from the start. Mayweather had to buy out his own contract before in order to be his own promoter.

I'm very familiar with the Jake and Dana saga, and have been since it began. I'm also very familiar with how the entertainment industry operates, and have been for a little over 20 years.

In general life situations, I fully believe and acknowledge that bad press is a bad thing.

My remark about bad press was in the context of an old saying in the entertainment industry that you don't seem to be familiar with, so I'll explain my use of it in the earlier reply. The saying "there's no such thing as bad press" is not meant to be taken literally. In this context, it basically means whether it's positive press, or negative press, it's going to attract potential customers.

That is what I'm trying to help you understand about what's going on with Jake, Dana, and UFC.

When it comes to negative press in the entertainment world, short of rape or murder (but also including some rare cases of rape and murder), just about anything can and will be handled very strategically to avoid substantial damage to companies, reputations, and/or a company's reputation. Especially big companies and big reputations. It's been done countless times throughout history. It's a fucked up practice, but it's a real one, and it's put to use every single day.

So I'm also trying to help you understand that about what's going on with Jake, Dana, and UFC.

UFC is a big company in the entertainment industry, Jake has a big reputation, Dana has a big reputation and he is also the physical presence of the big company's reputation.

To the best of my knowledge, Jake, Dana, and UFC have not raped or murdered anybody.

 

[mjfan23]

TLDR: problem is Dana and WME

 

[SG123]

This is just my own (long form) opinion, mixed with personal experiences, so I'll start with that disclaimer.

Over the years, Dana has always found an avenue to downplay a fighter's worth when it comes time to negotiate. The truth is secondary. The Diaz brothers "don't move the needle", for example.

In the case of Francis, I believe it has very little to do with the fighter himself, other than him being told what he's actually worth by people outside of the UFC's influence that do know what he's actually worth, and more to do with Dana & Co's long and rocky history with said people.

Francis is represented by Creative Artists Agency (CAA). For those of you that don't know, CAA has represented a lot of top UFC fighters over the years, starting long before the WME buyout.

Also, CAA and WME have been bitter rivals since the formation of CAA, by five former WME agents, in 1975.

Some of the most notable names on CAA's MMA roster have included, but are not limited to: Cain Velasquez, Rory MacDonald, Georges St. Pierre (and his coach, Firas Zahabi), the Shevchenko's, Joanna Jedrzejczyk, TJ Dillashaw, Kevin Lee, and Tim Kennedy.

Since the beginning of CAA's dealings with UFC, there have been quite a few bumps in the road when it comes time to negotiate a new contract for a lot of CAA's most popular fighters. The biggest example obviously being GSP, and a constant one since they began representing him all the way back in 2008.

Dana recently stated that he places the majority of blame on Ngannou's agent and agency in not easily being able to come to terms on a new deal. His claim is that "this is what happens when you get a guy that's repped by an agency that isn't soley an MMA agency; they have no idea what they're talking about".

However, he doesn't seem to feel the same way about the roster of UFC fighters repped by WME's own talent division, whom had only one fighter on their roster prior to purchasing UFC - Ronda Rousey, signed shortly after her first UFC fight in 2013.

Not to mention that he's dismissing the fact that, although CAA represents all forms of entertainers (as does WME), they have been representing UFC/MMA fighters (prospects, title contenders, and champions) for more than a decade. At this point, CAA is very familiar with the business side of MMA and UFC, and very much know what they are talking about.

In all fairness, Dana has dealt with plenty of agencies outside (and within) the MMA bubble that are content to just ride the current. So, those agents and managers helped set his expectations.

For example, I was lined up to film and distribute a documentary series that featured, individually, some of the cast members from season one of The Ultimate Fighter, well known UFC fighters, as well a number of non-UFC fighters. It was set to begin production shortly after the TUF 1 finale.

The first TUF cast member I had on board was Stephan Bonnar. When Stephan and I first began talking about it, money wasn't really on his mind; he had just been awarded a "six figure contract" and was simply interested in the concept of my proposed series. He was going to be fairly compensated, and he knew that.

A couple months after Stephan and I started talking, he was approached by and signed a deal with a major sports agency - Sports Entertainment Group (SEG). Stephan gave his agent my contact info, and I received a call shortly after.

Stephan had already told me how much he was being paid to fight, so I wasn't surprised when the agent was looking for similar numbers for Stephan's involvement in my series. He was the first MMA fighter that they had signed, and he was going into his first UFC contract, so the agent didn't have much else to base his expectations on. He was content to just ride the current.

I was fine with the numbers from the agent. In fact, they were actually less than what Stephan would've been paid by me for his involvement in the series. Based on my own conversations with UFC, to secure various permissions and licenses for my series - which did eventually get worked out - they barely wiggle, let alone budge. That was when UFC was just getting back on the map, I can't even imagine what those conversations would be like now.

Anyway, I digress, I'm not here to talk about the series, that's just an example to point out, from my own personal experience, the types of "MMA agents" that Dana is comparing CAA to. And although SEG fit that bill, they no longer rep MMA fighters, and haven't for a long time.

Either way, he likes the ones that are willing to just go with the flow to ensure a consistently solid relationship with UFC itself, but CAA has never been that way, and isn't willing to just accept whatever offer hits the table.

Now, one could argue that CAA playing hardball has a negative impact on their fighters, but with the exceptions of a few non-CAA fighters like Ronda, Conor, Anderson, and Jon, one could also argue that it has lead to quite a few of CAA's fighters having rather successful MMA careers (opportunities).


TLDR - The majority of heated negotiations and fall outs with top fighters that the UFC has had over the years have revolved around Dana's 13 plus year pissing match with CAA, further escalated by WME's purchase of UFC; mostly due to CAA being concerned more with their clients' best interests than those of UFC and WME. Which is exactly what anyone, in any industry, should fully expect from the agency that represents them.

Big thanks to anyone that read the whole thing.

Fun Fact: For all of you that are unsure why Dana is giving Jake Paul so much attention - Jake's "Warlock" manager that Dana mentioned recently is UFC's former Chief Financial Officer (2011-2016), and both Jake and his brother, Logan, are clients of WME's talent division. Logan was signed to CAA prior to joining his brother on WME's roster - It's all relative.

Ngannou genuinely doesn’t move the needle though, there’s nothing to downplay

 

[kflo]

It's actually hard to do if they want a career and not just chasing a fight with Jake Paul. That's why not many are switching. If it was so easy everyone would be crossing over to boxing for the boxing money. Boxing is the highest paying combat sport. So if it's money fighters are after they would be switching to boxing if they could. All the major champions make more than UFC champions except for a select few. The top 10 ranked boxers is making more than the top 10 ranked UFC fighters as well. So it's not hard to make money in boxing if you have high level boxing and can get to those levels.

Also the money cross over fights are also an option. But those are more one off type fights.

i said it's easy to become a boxer. hard to make money as a boxer. you just repeated it.

 

[kflo]

You don't seem to have a great understanding of everything lol. Dana was interested in the Paul brothers. He was trying to get them to UFC secretly and Jake called him out on it. That's probably why he doesn't like Dana. He made comments about Jake Paul and his boxing in the media but was also contacting them trying to sign them.

You don't have to agree with anything I said because I don't agree with anything you said. There's a difference between knowing UFC fighter pay is low and UFC contracts is a bad deal compared to boxing, compared to putting it out in public while having a public dispute with the UFC president about fighter pay and their contracts. You seem to think all press is good press, what is the outcome of press like this for UFC? What are the positives? Can you name them for us?

I'm not saying mma fighters can just transition into boxing, the point is boxing contracts are protected by the Ali Act and mma fighters have no protections. So all this just highlights that fact even more for mma fighters. None of this is good press for mma or UFC.

Like others have said before, Jake and Logan can't be controlled by UFC. They promote themselves, have their own promotion, and co-promote with boxing promotions. They don't need UFC. MMA fighters can't say what Jake Paul is saying because they would be worried about their careers. Jake and Logan wouldn't give up the freedom they have over their careers, fights, negotiations, etc to be controlled by UFC.

Not every fighter will be able to do this. Even Mayweather didn't start his career like this, he eventually got to that point once he learned the game during his career. Jake and Logan were able to start off their careers like this since they already had a lot of money going in to hire a team to fill them in on the business and do things right from the start. Mayweather had to buy out his own contract before in order to be his own promoter.

the ali act isn't some great protection. it mostly just codifies the role of sanctioning bodies and limits the ability of companies like the ufc or bellator or ONE or PFL to exist.

 

[Rear Naked Toke]

Ngannou genuinely doesn’t move the needle though, there’s nothing to downplay

From what I understand, Ngannou's issue isn't with his pay, so his worth is defined a little differently. In his case, he knows that he's not valued by the UFC, even though he's a champ, so he wants out. They want him to sign another multi-fight contract, so he is worth money to them.

He's 11-2 in the UFC, all wins by stoppage, with 6 awards for performance of the night. He's extremely marketable, but they barely promote him, or the heavyweight division. He's fighting in a couple weeks and this is probably the largest amount of promotion they ever given him, and it's mostly in the form of shitting on him in the press.

It's easy to point at his PPV numbers, but the heavyweight division, as a whole, hasn't been selling well for a long time. Since 2013, only 2 cards headlined by heavyweights have sold more than 400k, with the highest of the 2 being 500k.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

You say ever like the first Fox card ever wasn't only 13 months before the Benson fight, which was also the second time Nate headlined a Fox card in 7 months. Casuals or not, Benson vs Nate was all but guaranteed to do less numbers than the previous Fox cards. The first one would get better numbers because, well, it was the first one and people were curious, and it was headlined by Cain and JDS.

Rashad was more well known than Nate, and only the second Fox card, so new people were curious. And only in recent years would Nate do better numbers than Shogun on any platform.

It's also fair to mention that Benson vs Nate generated more ticket revenue than any of the previous Fox cards, and that was in Seattle.

Not sure why you mentioned the Frankie swap in reference to Nate; Nate lost. If anything, that was a shot at Gray, he's the one that got pulled out of his position. There's also the factor that Nate and Gray's first fight was a first round knockout, so naturally there would be high expectations going into the rematch, and a lot of disappointment coming out of it - regardless of TV ratings.

I mention it because the fight was hot garbage and the only person that deserves more blame than Maynard is Nate for that.