The players behind ramping up of anti-China propaganda

[tonni]

Will they eat it like they eat everything else?

Only if it moves if you put it in the frying pan.

 

[Bald1]

Was the attempts at isolating Apartheid South Africa also a childish approach? Or Myanmar/Burma ?

You can not improve their behavior by being nice and soft. It's like thinking you can change the mindset of Al Qaeda if we were nice to them. Totalitarian regimes like China exploit our relatively fress society, democratic principles to strength and expand their power. What has decades of open access to Western markets and technology brought? You are deluding yourself if you think staying on the same path will bring different results. Without severe pressure from the West, China will continue to strength its totalitarian control and bullying of weaker nations.

I.P. theft is a major issue, it runs in the tens of billions if not more. I.P. theft is also a security issue, because it allows China to strength its military, enabling it to better bully others.

Myanmar, Burma, South Africa and Iraq were fundamentally different from modern China in many respects. The primary one of concern, this century, is China's insistence on exporting viruses. Apples to basketballs..

We're on the same page here, but sometimes Captain Obvious needs to make an appearance.

 

[all caps]

It's going to come out that China is directly responsible (outside of natural disaster) for this mess, and we aren't allowed to talk about it? I have been talking about how we screwed up giving China our wealth for over 15 years now, and I have weirdo shilly posters that have followed me around here. I'm starting to think it's not a coincidence.

There are no coincidences

 

[Jack V Savage]

It has been hugely beneficial to China. It has been hugely beneficial to the 1% in America. It has been devastating to the middle and lower classes in America because now ever since normalizing relations with China they have been forced to compete with 3rd world labor, countries that have lower costs due to minimum or no environmental regulations, and no unions to worry about. The Democrats worked hand in glove with Republicans to create this system but they pretend to be the party of the middle and lower classes.

The typical rebuttal is we have lower cost goods yet the middle and lower classes still struggle so this trade-off doesn't hold up.

Some issues with this argument:

1. "Devastating" is not defined. If you try to, you'll find that the median impact on wages is under 1%, though workers on the lower end of the distribution took more of that, and the effect was limited in time (no longer weighing down there). No one likes any downward pressure on wages for any length of time, but I don't think that most people would call a 0.7% or so downward pressure "devastating."
2. "(tradeoff) didn't eliminate (bad thing)" is not an argument that the tradeoff wasn't beneficial. If we try to quantify the value of cheaper goods, we see that it's much higher than the impact on wages mentioned above.
3. Less precise here, but I'm seeing inconsistency in the value of Chinese lives as it relates to the U.S. economy in these arguments. If we care about Chinese human-rights abuses (which I agree we should) and are willing to sacrifice relative impoverishment of American workers, we should equally care about raising the standard of living of Chinese workers. I understand that you and @MicroBrew are not the same person, and maybe he thinks that the average American should be willing to effectively pay $10K a year to protect Chinese citizens from human-rights abuses (not that I think that cutting off trade would actually make Chinese citizens better off, but maybe he disagrees), but you don't think that it's a good tradeoff. My experience, though, is that people are inconsistent on this score.

And now due to China's bigger role in trade and the money that allowed more Chinese tourists to travel around the world it has devastated the entire world economy due to the China virus.

This again reflects some cost blindness, IMO, though probably not a consistent one. Meaning, by the same logic, we should never leave our homes because we might get hit by a car. Probably a better solution would be to maintain free movement of our people and allow tourism, but not put morons in the WH. I think we should all hope that the past four years have taught Americans a lesson about the importance of experienced and intelligent leadership.

 

[MicroBrew]

What I'm referring to as a childish approach is: "I'm mad at X so I want to hurt X." As opposed to the liberal approach of "I deem X's actions to be undesirable so I support specific policies that I think are likely to prevent or reduce those actions at an acceptable price."

What did these "support policies" get us, in the 40 odd years since Nixon welcomed China? Or you could just go back 30 years to the post Berlin Wall era.

Again, it's not should we be "nice" or "mean?" It's "what's going to pass a cost-benefit analysis?" Was being "mean" to Saddam a good way to fix what was wrong with Iraq?

Getting rid of Saddam did free the Kurds and Shia though. I was against the war, but not against deposing Saddam. Putting sanctions on Apartheid S.A. did lead to dismantling of Apartheid.

To answer your question: A massive reduction in global poverty and a big increase in living standards in the West. I think you're deluding yourself if you think that changing the path will bring the same results.

We can move manufacturing out of China and into South East Asia, India, Bangladesh, Latin America and Africa. It will help to lift all these regions out of poverty. Concentrating our eggs in the China basket has exposed to everyone we got caught with our pants down. Primary reason for our lack of PPE supplies is outsourcing, specifically outsourcing to China. Living standards in the West was very high in the 50s and 60s, which was before all this outsourcing.

Our GDP last year was over 21 thousand billions. So you're making my point about IP theft. And what was your view of the TPP? The point of it was to increase our influence in the region and reduce China's, and it had provisions to strengthen IP protections (which was actually one of the things that most upset dumb leftists about it). It was certainly not perfect, but that was an intelligent attempt to address the concerns that you have. But the same propaganda machines that are whipping up anti-China hysteria were whipping up anti-TPP hysteria in 2016, and with the same results. Instead of moving from one propaganda-induced hysteria to another, we should develop a long-term plan that achieves our objectives at an acceptable (even if high) cost.

That was Trump's fault. I am not Trump fan. I disagree with a lot of what he says and does. TPP is fine, though Brunei should have beene excluded, but we still need to move some manufacturing back home. Relying on others for essential stuff puts us at their mercy.

 

[MicroBrew]

Some issues with this argument:

1. "Devastating" is not defined. If you try to, you'll find that the median impact on wages is under 1%, though workers on the lower end of the distribution took more of that, and the effect was limited in time (no longer weighing down there). No one likes any downward pressure on wages for any length of time, but I don't think that most people would call a 0.7% or so downward pressure "devastating."
2. "(tradeoff) didn't eliminate (bad thing)" is not an argument that the tradeoff wasn't beneficial. If we try to quantify the value of cheaper goods, we see that it's much higher than the impact on wages mentioned above.
3. Less precise here, but I'm seeing inconsistency in the value of Chinese lives as it relates to the U.S. economy in these arguments. If we care about Chinese human-rights abuses (which I agree we should) and are willing to sacrifice relative impoverishment of American workers, we should equally care about raising the standard of living of Chinese workers. I understand that you and @MicroBrew are not the same person, and maybe he thinks that the average American should be willing to effectively pay $10K a year to protect Chinese citizens from human-rights abuses (not that I think that cutting off trade would actually make Chinese citizens better off, but maybe he disagrees), but you don't think that it's a good tradeoff. My experience, though, is that people are inconsistent on this score.

This again reflects some cost blindness, IMO, though probably not a consistent one. Meaning, by the same logic, we should never leave our homes because we might get hit by a car. Probably a better solution would be to maintain free movement of our people and allow tourism, but not put morons in the WH. I think we should all hope that the past four years have taught Americans a lesson about the importance of experienced and intelligent leadership.

Costs don't necessarily need to increase by moving manufacturing out of China, there are plenty of other developing countries more than happy to fill the role.

 

[Khabibs Tiramisu]

This is an in-depth exploration of the personalities and right-wing think-tanks who are engaged in a concerted effort to push anti-Chinese propaganda through both their own outlets and mainstream news media, using the current pandemic to posture for the engagement of a new cold war with China. There seems to be an abundance of stories and opinions imparting blame and suspicion on China, often from unidentified sources and without convincing evidence to support. Its observable many here (if not even, perhaps a majority) are fully on-board with these sentiments; that is their prerogative, and this is not attempt to challenge those perspectives, but some may find it interesting to learn more about who's behind the emergence of these stories and their agenda. I found it incredibly insightful.



part 2:

 

[Deleted member 159002]

People from China buying up US houses, contributing to our housing crisis also should be mentioned.

However, a retreat by Chinese buyers could be good news for Americans looking to purchase a home, especially in such costly Golden State markets as San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego. These are among the most expensive in the entire country, and their popularity had contributed to double-digit home-price appreciation in recent years.

The rate at which home prices are climbing has recently slowed as buyers have struggled with affordability. The lack of competition from foreign buyers, who typically enter competitive all-cash offers, could provide an opportunity to get a better deal on a home for locals looking to buy.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/c...umps-trade-war-could-soon-end-that-2019-05-15

 

[Deleted member 159002]

The National Realtors’ survey found only 40 percent of Chinese foreign buyers intend to use their U.S. home as a primary residence for their recently immigrated family. The remainder eyed it as an investment vehicle, vacation home, or for use by a student.

https://calmatters.org/housing/2018...-real-estate-in-your-california-neighborhood/

 

[ShinkanPo]

https://calmatters.org/housing/2018...-real-estate-in-your-california-neighborhood/

The Capitalists should stop selling rope to comies who will hang you with said rope.

 

[Oooxente]

This have to be a CCP paid fake account.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

The Capitalists should stop selling rope to comies who will hang you with said rope.

I'm hardly a libertarian. I say no more Chinese citizens buying American houses as part of an ultimatum package to China to shape up.

 

[ShinkanPo]

I'm hardly a libertarian. I say no more Chinese citizens buying American houses as part of an ultimatum package to China to shape up.

Another thing birth tourism can some from China be born in the USA and then just be taken by the parents back to China be in doctrinated in Chinese supremacists doctrine and just return after 18 years and vote?

Can that theoritically happen?

 

[KnightTemplar]

Sorry, Bruce, but Joker is the hero we need right now

 

[blaseblah]

You're arguing for negotiating with terrorists here basically.

We do this already. And the past several decades of regime change wars have been a failure. How many wars is enough for you?

 

[hillelslovak87]

Biden stands up for China

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War Room: Pandemic EP 122

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War Room: Pandemic EP 123

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New episodes of The War Room: Pandemic is live streaming now. It's associated with the anti-CCP groups talked about by the idiot who started this thread. If you think CCP propaganda will convince many Americans to side with China, you're naive or stupid. Many of us have been following China closely for years, and we aren't going to be influenced by Chinese propaganda. There are a lot of people on the left and right who agree on this issue. There are plenty of greedy, power hungry, scumbag politicians in both parties who have ignored our concerns for over a decade. It's time we start fighting back when it comes to China. China needs to be forced to back up their bark or shut up. I already understand where this could lead, and I've accepted the possibility of war. It's a war worth fighting if it comes to that.

The Chinese communist party was directly related to the decline of the entire western world even before this virus, and it's time we start fighting back. That starts with the establishment who sold us out and have blood on their hands. It doesn't matter if you like Trump or not, he's not an establishment puppet of China like the corrupt and senile Joe Biden. Bloomberg jumped in the race because Bernie was surging and Biden was losing his mind in front of the world. He will be using those billions as part of the massive, and sophisticated, Chinese influence operations they run here to back Biden and his Chinese investments. If we don't use Trump to make some bigger changes soon, we will go back to the status quo. They already know they can't manipulate us like they use too, but they aren't going away without force.

Biden's connections with China are worse than his cognitive decline. It doesn't matter who he picks for VP, because whoever is controlling him now will make that choice, and they won't choose someone they can't control. Not to mention the fact you could see Chinese influence in the democrat primary, which is why candidates had to abandon the few good ideas they had, and do a complete reversal and support crazy SJW bullshit. Bernie would have done better if he had rejected that BS, but until Trump there wasn't anyone who could go against the establishment of either party on certain issues without getting destroyed at that level.

Yes, let us resist Chinese propaganda by listening to the ideology of Steve Bannon, founded upon the fascist Julius Evola.

Progerss!!!!!

 

[MicroBrew]

Myanmar, Burma, South Africa and Iraq were fundamentally different from modern China in many respects. The primary one of concern, this century, is China's insistence on exporting viruses. Apples to basketballs..

We're on the same page here, but sometimes Captain Obvious needs to make an appearance.

I was just comparing the internal human rights situations.

 

[Bald1]

We do this already. And the past several decades of regime change wars have been a failure. How many wars is enough for you?

Who's talking of war?

Restrict Chinese activities abroad.
Restrict Chinese purchase of property abroad.
Implement thorough screening processing for Chinese nationals traveling.
Incentivize moving manufacturing out of China.
Be brutally honest and transparent about the fuckery of "allies" such as China, SA and Pakistan.
Shift priorities from profit to well being of citizens.

CCP doesn't like it? Fuck em and evolve the conversation as necessary.

There's not even a need for sanctions, just reprioritize what is important.

 

[Bald1]

I was just comparing the internal human rights situations.

Yup, I get that. This is something way above and beyond what countries do within their own borders.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Shift priorities from profit to well being of citizens.

But don't you know that being able to save money on tchotchkes because they were made in some adversarial, totalitarian shithole instead of by Americans earning a middle class wage is really beneficial to US citizens?