_____________ _______ ________________

[dissolved]

What are you talking about? Are you even reading my posts?

Can I count on you to continue to dodge my question despite the fact that I've answered yours?

Can you read your questions to me?

I didn't ask for your qualifications, I asked for yes or no.

This is how you, at times, write your questions to dictate my answers.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Can you read your questions to me?

Here

I answered your question now answer mine; are families relatives?

I didn't ask for your qualifications, I asked for yes or no.

But I still answered with a yes or a no, in this case a no. So your claim that I didn't answer with a yes or no is false. Either a mistake or a lie on your part.

This is how you, at times, write your questions to dictate my answers.

Everyone writes questions to dictate answers because I want the answer to have some connection to the question and topic at hand. You have to establish underlying assumptions and definitions and so that's why I ask certain questions.

You endlessly dodge them, for what reason I can't know but it strikes he as a commitment to avoid clear, honest discussion. You answer questions with questions, questions that I grant the courtesy in answering despite having my own questions consistently dodged.

 

[Gunny]

I'm also saying that lying by Muslims to Westerners is constant about the nature and practice of Islam. It happens in the WR continually.

Link this thread whenever you see an Islam-apologist or Muslim who's not admitting it and then laughs or scoffs the word taqiyya like it's some Western invention.

This is absolutely correct

 

[Genghiz]

Taqiya: The Tragic Story of Joe McPhearson's Sad Life.

Pretty much nailed it. IntheName is just a seething bag of slime under his veneer of "discussion"
I don't know how you have the patience to respond to his retarded posts, but kudos.

You're right, probably repressed gay, although the first time I ever read one of his posts I got the impression a Muslim fucked his girlfriend (or rather someone he thought was his gf/admired from afar).

 

[WiolentOne]

Wolf in sheep's clothing.

Concealment.

A tactic of a war culture.

 

[dissolved]

Here


But I still answered with a yes or a no, in this case a no. So your claim that I didn't answer with a yes or no is false. Either a mistake or a lie on your part.

Everyone writes questions to dictate answers because I want the answer to have some connection to the question and topic at hand. You have to establish underlying assumptions and definitions and so that's why I ask certain questions.

You endlessly dodge them, for what reason I can't know but it strikes he as a commitment to avoid clear, honest discussion. You answer questions with questions, questions that I grant the courtesy in answering despite having my own questions consistently dodged.

No, you don't get to bully and dictate how I answer your questions to fit your narrative.

Here is your question where you are still NOT quoting the Hadith wording where it says, "some relatives."

Yes or no, are families relatives?

In fact, you've not quoted the Hadith once as it is written in this thread. Meanwhile, I have.

Next, what you've been trying to do, clearly, is to equate the loose wording of The Hadith's "some relatives" to YOUR word (which you used throughout) of "family."

My answer to you is in normal speech people don't refer to their spouses, son's, and daughters as "some relatives." Which is a sensible, reasonable answer.

Finally, this little rabbit trail is a misdirection from the more-exploitable ambiguity in the Hadith, the phrase "excess wealth" - which I also pointed out to you before as such.

 

[Islam Imamate]

No, you don't get to bully and dictate how I answer your questions to fit your narrative.

Lol @ bully

Here is your question where you are still NOT quoting the Hadith wording where it says, "some relatives."

In fact, you've not quoted the Hadith once as it is written in this thread. Meanwhile, I have.

How many times do we have to go in circles? I never claimed to be quoting the hadith, I was offering an example of a situation that would be covered by the hadith and asked you if you thought that was immoral. You saw the implication of answering honestly so you've dodged the question since.

Next, what you've been trying to do, clearly, is to equate the loose wording of The Hadith's "some relatives" to YOUR word (which you used throughout) of "family."

My answer to you is in normal speech people don't refer to their spouses, son's, and daughters as "some relatives." Which is a sensible, reasonable answer.

For one, you still refuse to answer with a simple yes or no like I did when you asked. This seems to be because you're resistant to clear and honest discourse.

Yes, "relatives" might not imply the closeness that "family" does. But for one, family has always been, in denotation, virtually interchangeable with relatives. And on top of this its not hard to imagine that in 7th century Arabia the connection between extended family would be stronger. Hell, even today in the Arab world there are many places, like Yemen, where extended family is very important when compared to Westerners.

Finally, this little rabbit trail is a misdirection from the more-exploitable ambiguity in the Hadith, the phrase "excess wealth" - which I also pointed out to you before as such.

Your argument for that point is shit too. The hadith seems to indicate he was retrieving his own wealth. I'm not Christian so I don't accept that lying is always bad. In this case, I believe that lying to protect yourself or your property is not only reasonable but also morally acceptable.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Pretty much nailed it. IntheName is just a seething bag of slime under his veneer of "discussion"
I don't know how you have the patience to respond to his retarded posts, but kudos.

You're right, probably repressed gay, although the first time I ever read one of his posts I got the impression a Muslim fucked his girlfriend (or rather someone he thought was his gf/admired from afar).

I don't think its really appropriate to go calling him a cuck or a closet gay or whatever. I haven't seen any reason to think those things and its probably not the most constructive thing to start throwing out there.

My honest interpretation of his posting on this topic is that as a devout Christian this discussion has a sectarian motivation on top of it. So that's why he goes the extra mile in criticizing Islam, beyond the plenty of reasonable points of criticism, with his dishonest and/or mistaken representation of certain points.

He's a Keyboard Crusader.

 

[EmpireShallFall]

I practice taqiya all the time. Fight me.

 

[mike sherry]

seems like a fear mongering tactic

bet most Muslims don't even know about this

most muslims dont even know Mohammed was a warlord

 

[dissolved]

Lol @ bully

How many times do we have to go in circles? I never claimed to be quoting the hadith, I was offering an example of a situation that would be covered by the hadith and asked you if you thought that was immoral. You saw the implication of answering honestly so you've dodged the question since.

For one, you still refuse to answer with a simple yes or no like I did when you asked. This seems to be because you're resistant to clear and honest discourse.

No, it's because you want to dictate an answer - which, incidentally, has nothing to do with a yes or no answer.

Yes, "relatives" might not imply the closeness that "family" does. But for one, family has always been, in denotation, virtually interchangeable with relatives. And on top of this its not hard to imagine that in 7th century Arabia the connection between extended family would be stronger. Hell, even today in the Arab world there are many places, like Yemen, where extended family is very important when compared to Westerners.

The man putting "excess wealth" before "some relatives" in his query is telling how important they were.

Your argument for that point is shit too. The hadith seems to indicate he was retrieving his own wealth. I'm not Christian so I don't accept that lying is always bad. In this case, I believe that lying to protect yourself or your property is not only reasonable but also morally acceptable.

The standard in the Torah of the Old Testament - in Judaism, and certainly in Christianity, is that lying is wrong. Period.

This is why Christians are beheaded by Islamists on beaches in Libya, or beheaded in cities in Iraq and Syria, or crucified in those countries.

On the converse, Islam sanctions dishonesty: to smooth over discord between a man and his wife for example. Taqiyya to save life AND property is also acceptable. Saying with the mouth what the heart is comfortable with is also acceptable. Obtaining excess wealth in face of possible danger is also an acceptable excuse to be dishonest. In fact, self-survival and furtherance of Islam (basic humanism) is also worthy grounds for dishonesty. Gaining the upper hand over competition is grounds for employing dishonesty.

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/al-taqiyya-dissimulation-part-1

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/al-taqiyya-dissimulation-part-2

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/al-taqiyya-dissimulation-part-3

All of those "reasons" and more can be found in the above links. But, of course, Islam in its piety doesn't agree with any negative connotation to their sect's usage of the doctrine.

Unfortunately the truth is what "al-Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as) (The Sixth Imam of Ahlul-Bayt) said:

"al-Taqiyya is my religion, and the religion of my ancestors.”He (as)also said: "He who doesn’t practice al-Taqiyya, doesn’t practice his religion."

This is one of the many values Islam has that are incompatible with Western/Christian values.

 

[weed]

Nope, you've been lying in this thread and in practically every thread where you communicate about me and with me.

That's your problem not mine.

nyet. look at everyone destroying you on here. this thread is your doomed failure. but this is where your hubris has its benefits - you're deluded & actually think you're doing well in this entire exchange unable to acknowledge your fallacies so you'll keep this link on your sig so everyone can see the truth in you getting besmirched on here.

you can't even see how inconsistent you are dude - you're all over the place. I predicted this waaaaay before in this very thread. thanks for cementing the truth.

also I am sticking to the thread topic dude. your use of taqiya, remember? how dense can you be? you have several users pointing out how much of a liar you are in here.

the bottom line is you yourself are a filthy, poor & terrible liar. this thread exposes your hypocrisy.

 

[dissolved]

nyet. look at everyone destroying you on here. this thread is your doomed failure. but this is where your hubris has its benefits - you're deluded & actually think you're doing well in this entire exchange unable to acknowledge your fallacies so you'll keep this link on your sig so everyone can see the truth in you getting besmirched on here.

you can't even see how inconsistent you are dude - you're all over the place. I predicted this waaaaay before in this very thread. thanks for cementing the truth.

also I am sticking to the thread topic dude. your use of taqiya, remember? how dense can you be? you have several users pointing out how much of a liar you are in here.

the bottom line is you yourself are a filthy, poor & terrible liar. this thread is your exposes your hypocrisy.

Perhaps the sixth Imam can help you keep on topic:

"al-Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as) (The Sixth Imam of Ahlul-Bayt) said:

"al-Taqiyya is my religion, and the religion of my ancestors.”He (as)also said: "He who doesn’t practice al-Taqiyya, doesn’t practice his religion."

 

[weed]

Perhaps the sixth Imam can help you keep on topic:

"al-Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as) (The Sixth Imam of Ahlul-Bayt) said:

"al-Taqiyya is my religion, and the religion of my ancestors.”He (as)also said: "He who doesn’t practice al-Taqiyya, doesn’t practice his religion."

so which is it? a Muslim dude banged you & burned you? or are you a former Muslim because you're gay, but can't stop deceiving others?

 

[dissolved]

so which is it? a Muslim dude banged you & burned you? or are you a former Muslim because you're gay, but can't stop deceiving others?

You can't seem to be able to even stick to the content of a short post.

 

[Islam Imamate]

No, it's because you want to dictate an answer - which, incidentally, has nothing to do with a yes or no answer.

It has everything to do with the yes or no answer, what else would it be about? Try to say what you mean and mean what you say for once.

The man putting "excess wealt" before "some relatives" in his query is telling how important they were.

Does it really matter though? He was lying to protect himself, his relatives, and his property from religious persecution. Nothing wrong with that.

The standard in the Torah of the Old Testament - in Judaism, and certainly in Christianity, is that lying is wrong. Period.

I think its a shit standard though and it doesn't apply to everyone. I see nothing wrong with lying as it seems to be used in the specific hadith we've been discussing.

It is why Islam sanctions dishonesty: to smooth over discord between a man and his wife for example. Taqiyya to save life AND property is also acceptable. Saying with the mouth what the heart is comfortable with is also acceptable. Obtaining excess wealth in face of possible danger is also an acceptable excuse to be dishonest. In fact, self-survival and furtherance of Islam (basic humanism) is also worthy grounds for dishonesty. Gaining the upper hand over competition is grounds for employing dishonesty.

Still repeating this misrepresentation? In the hadith you source for this the man is retrieving his own wealth and his own relatives.

Unfortunately thebtruth is what "al-Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as) (The Sixth Imam of Ahlul-Bayt) said:

"al-Taqiyya is my religion, and the religion of my ancestors.”He (as)also said: "He who doesn’t practice al-Taqiyya, doesn’t practice his religion."

This is one of the many values Islam has that are incompatible with Western/Christian values.

How does that make Islam incompatible with the West? The forms of lying permitted by Islam probably align with what most people would accept. Lying to protect yourself or your property seems like it would be widely accepted given we even legally allow the use of lethal force for those ends.

The entire job of an undercover cop is to lie and yet we see that job as necessary at times.

White lies might not be ideal behavior but like I said, I bet most of us have told at least one white lie that we didn't regret.

As far as lying for the other purposes, I think you've been dishonest and not really convincing on those points. And that's really the problem with having a discussion with you, you misrepresent reality and commit to discussing your distortion. Its hard to have a discussion when one side is so consistently dishonest and inaccurate.

 

[dissolved]

Pretty much nailed it. IntheName is just a seething bag of slime under his veneer of "discussion"
I don't know how you have the patience to respond to his retarded posts, but kudos.

You're right, probably repressed gay, although the first time I ever read one of his posts I got the impression a Muslim fucked his girlfriend (or rather someone he thought was his gf/admired from afar).

False.

Face what the sixth Imam of your false ideology says:

"al-Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as) (The Sixth Imam of Ahlul-Bayt) said:

"al-Taqiyya is my religion, and the religion of my ancestors.”He (as)also said: "He who doesn’t practice al-Taqiyya, doesn’t practice his religion."

 

[weed]

You can't seem to be able to even stick to the content of a short post.

incorrect, I've been consistent, where you're slow witted. keep up man c'mon.

 

[Islam Imamate]

You can't seem to be able to even stick to the content of a short post.

Look who is talking, you constantly dodge question asked of you and instead answer them with your own questions or try to shift the topic some other way. All the while even saying things like "say what you mean and mean what you say".

So you're not only dishonest but apparently also a hypocrite.

 

[dissolved]

I think its a shit standard though and it doesn't apply to everyone. I see nothing wrong with lying as it seems to be used in the specific hadith we've been discussing.

It is wrong, and you and everyone else will either be judged by their faith in Jesus Christ or their perfect observance of the law. The law, that establishes and defines the holiness of God in the Old and New Testaments of The Holy Bible.

Still repeating this misrepresentation?

Nope, this is not true. In fact I'm the only one who has been quoting it accurately, you haven't once.

In the hadith you source for this the man is retrieving his own wealth and his own relatives.

"Excess wealth" and ""some relatives".

You still haven't quoted it accurately once.

I think its a shit standard though and it do
How does that make Islam incompatible with the West? The forms of lying permitted by Islam probably align with what most people would accept.

No they do not. And I'm telling you right now it is why certain Middle Eastern Muslim majority countries produce people with bad, known reputations for being dishonest in business and otherwise. It is the ideology that can easily justify any sort of lying, and, quite frankly, behavior.

Lying to protect yourself or your property seems like it would be widely accepted given we even legally allow the use of lethal force for those ends.

The entire job of an undercover cop is to lie and yet we see that job as necessary at times.

White lies might not be ideal behavior but like I said, I bet most of us have told at least one white lie that we didn't regret.

Lying should carry guilt with it, telling the truth doesn't.

As far as lying for the other purposes, I think you've been dishonest and not really convincing on those points. And that's really the problem with having a discussion with you, you misrepresent reality and commit to discussing your distortion. Its hard to have a discussion when one side is so consistently dishonest and inaccurate.

Quit being so dishonest and inaccurate then.

“Honesty is more than not lying. It is truth telling, truth speaking, truth living, and truth loving.”
― James E. Faust

“In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.”
― Galileo Galilei

“If an offense come out of the truth, better is it that the offense come than that the truth be concealed.”
― Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]