The Medieval thread






Really bad decision to get into a fight so badly outnumbered. I think the knights of Antioch probably would have taken Aleppo and won that major battle if they had even numbers.

But I think everything had to happen the way it did so we could get to where we are today!
 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Kingdom_of_Cilicia



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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_I,_King_of_Armenia
 
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The oldest known English roll of arms dating to 1244 AD

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This map doesn't contain everything but it shows a wide variety:

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https://www.ancient.eu/Medieval_Heraldry/
Heraldry, that is the use of inherited coats of arms and other symbols to show personal identity and family lineage, began on the mid-12th century CE battlefield as an easy means to identify medieval royalty and princes who were otherwise unrecognisable beneath their armour. By the 13th century CE, the practice had spread to nobles and knights who began to take pride in bearing the colours and arms of their family predecessors. Shields and tunics were particularly good places to display such symbols as lions, eagles, crosses, and geometric forms. As more and more knights employed coats of arms so they had to become more sophisticated to differentiate them, and the use of heraldry even spread to institutions such as universities, guilds, and towns. The practice still continues today, with many countries having official colleges of arms which assign individuals and institutions with new arms, and although the medieval knight has long since disappeared, the symbolism of heraldry remains a common sight from company logos to sports teams' badges.
 
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I hate how the movies portrays battle scenes so wrong. Knights slicing through mail armor instantly killing the guy bugs me.

I think it would take a bit more than that to kill someone. Those battles must have been so brutal with so much protection. As bad as this may sound I would really like to the see the battles just to know exactly how these people killed each other up close and personal with those weapons and armor.

I imagine training cardio would be hugely important. After about 10 minute of fighting I can just picture most of the people tired out.
 
I don't agree with everything, but cool vid



ps: #2 right name is PAVESE, as "from Pavia", no idea why he drop an "L" there
 
I imagine training cardio would be hugely important. After about 10 minute of fighting I can just picture most of the people tired out.

Good point! Some battles lasted hours, what happens when you're dead tired? Do you get rotated out to rest a bit or do you just accept your fate?
 




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imad_ad-Din_Zengi

Unlike Saladin at Jerusalem in 1187, Zengi did not keep his word to protect his captives at Baalbek in 1139. According to Ibn al-‘Adim, Zengi "had sworn to the people of the citadel with strong oaths and on the Qur’an and divorcing (his wives). When they came down from the citadel he betrayed them, flayed its governor and hanged the rest.
<escalate99>



 
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<Aug3>
Europe stupid!





You'll like this video.


Do you know long it took them to build those things? Also a handful of beautiful massive cathedrals in cities that took a century to build doesn't change how the rest of Europe looked or lived, not even those cities.
 
Absolutely loved this game when I was a kid. It's actually really fun and well done in my opinion.



You can DL it for free and play it using DOS BOX
https://www.dosbox.com/wiki/Basic_Setup_and_Installation_of_DosBox

You'll also need the manual for the coat of arms, gem stones, druid trees and secret hand alphabet:
https://www.mocagh.org/sierra/longbow-manual.pdf


Definitely one of my favourite adventure games, one of the best ever made imo. Just an excellent classic Sierra game.
 
Do you know long it took them to build those things? Also a handful of beautiful massive cathedrals in cities that took a century to build doesn't change how the rest of Europe looked or lived, not even those cities.
I don't get what your point is. Are you saying there weren't plagues, famines, civil wars, brutal savage behavior, invading nomads that dominate everything in their path and dirty conditions in the Middle East during that time?

I posted pictures of those cathedrals to show ignorant blanket that Europe had plenty of enlightened and intelligent people.

Also watch the first video in this thread. There's a lot of misconceptions about medieval Europe.
 
Good point! Some battles lasted hours, what happens when you're dead tired? Do you get rotated out to rest a bit or do you just accept your fate?

That was one of the things Romans mastered
Theyr whole training and lifestyle was about keep fuck up enemies while the opponents gradually give up/slow down/break

Vets legionaries had incredible stamina AND the formation allowed a turnover of fresh soldiers from back lines

Returning to medieval times the latter part was made difficult by armies becoming smaller as number, the turnover thing became less common
 
Very cool, never heard about that tower shield those crossbowmen used.
One thing he forgot to had is that at least in famous genovesi crossbowmen case was'nt the balestriere himself to use the shield

For genovesi the common thing was have a shield dude (from Genova too) that essentially was a bodyguard good at close combat, armed with short sword and dagger.
Essentially shield guy cover the balestriere during recharge time and check for eventual counter-fire from enemies, It was a well paid pro who passed throught a training similar in level of the one of the balestriere himself

Who bought a balestriere had to pay also for shield bro
Wich the Lords were ok with as aside balestriere's safety (wich was precious), a balestriere that did'nt had to think at defend himself can fire at much higher rate
 




Some videos on Saracen expansion in the early Middle Ages.
 
I don't get what your point is. Are you saying there weren't plagues, famines, civil wars, brutal savage behavior, invading nomads that dominate everything in their path and dirty conditions in the Middle East during that time?

I posted pictures of those cathedrals to show ignorant blanket that Europe had plenty of enlightened and intelligent people.

Also watch the first video in this thread. There's a lot of misconceptions about medieval Europe.

Nope. There are misconceptions about Medeival Europe but saying there were beautiful cathedrals doesn't prove it. Also the way Medeival Europe worked is that there was a church in every little town that had people living there who were the only ones who knew how to read. So yeah they were smart people but those smart people were very insulated from the rest of society. And there's a difference between a civil war and the hyper decentralization of the Middle Ages where every little area had their own duke. If anything one thing the Middle Ages gets props for is the religiousity managed to stop most fighting unless it had to with challenged inheritances. It's part of why European nobles were so lustful for violence in the Crusades.

Middle East and Byzantines more or less remained in the classical level of development. Europe was mainly agrarian and backwards. A few churches doesn't change that.
 
Nope. There are misconceptions about Medeival Europe but saying there were beautiful cathedrals doesn't prove it. Also the way Medeival Europe worked is that there was a church in every little town that had people living there who were the only ones who knew how to read. So yeah they were smart people but those smart people were very insulated from the rest of society. And there's a difference between a civil war and the hyper decentralization of the Middle Ages where every little area had their own duke. If anything one thing the Middle Ages gets props for is the religiousity managed to stop most fighting unless it had to with challenged inheritances. It's part of why European nobles were so lustful for violence in the Crusades.

Middle East and Byzantines more or less remained in the classical level of development. Europe was mainly agrarian and backwards. A few churches doesn't change that.

Beautiful cathedrals do tell you a lot about the people and society.

Can you give me some examples of this backwardness you speak of that wasn't present in the Eastern Roman Empire and the Islamic caliphates?

Peasants not knowing how to read didn't stop medieval Europeans from advancing further and faster than older civilizations. The people were still very creative and skilled.

A civil war in both cases does the same damage to civilians.

I don't think European Nobles were lustful for violence. Sure they were the best at it and would have dominated the entire region if they had the numbers, but I don't think they lusted after violence. Some (Many were very good people too) lusted after power, glory, money and land. Just like the invading Seljuks.

What is the other part of why you think European nobles were so lustful for violence? More so than anyone else during that time?

What do you mean by classical level of development?
 
Beautiful cathedrals do tell you a lot about the people and society.

Can you give me some examples of this backwardness you speak of that wasn't present in the Eastern Roman Empire and the Islamic caliphates?

Peasants not knowing how to read didn't stop medieval Europeans from advancing further and faster than older civilizations. The people were still very creative and skilled.

A civil war in both cases does the same damage to civilians.

I don't think European Nobles were lustful for violence. Sure they were the best at it and would have dominated the entire region if they had the numbers, but I don't think they lusted after violence. Some (Many were very good people too) lusted after power, glory, money and land. Just like the invading Seljuks.

What is the other part of why you think European nobles were so lustful for violence? More so than anyone else during that time?

What do you mean by classical level of development?

Well day to day life and your standard HRE setup. Islamic caliphates and Byzantine Empire were set up more like classical civ.

No it doesn't do the same damage cause when you're split in a hundred pieces the scale of civil war's is considerably smaller. And they did have the numbers to dominate the region again the main reason the Middle Ages were so backwards as opposed to earlier is hyper decentralization, the region wasn't united, Germany alone had hundreds of mostly independent entities and that meant governments just didn't have the resources to do what they did in the classical civilization. And the church maintained a lot of the staples of classical civilization but the church was also(literally) walled off from the rest of society.

Well classical civs(Rome, Persia etc basically civilizations pre dominance of Islam and Christianity) weren't industrial but classical civs were kind of like modern life if you take away industrial technology, socially things were pretty similar to today while in Europe.....not so much. It's very hard to put a clear answer to your question in words though I have a clear picture of what I mean. But the building of churches took an incredibly long time and the number of churches that were architectural marvels were relatively few in number. Worship was also society's number one priority and like I said before the church was sort of an isolated time capsule into classical life in many ways. They did not advance further than classical civs and if by the end of the Middle Ages there were areas where they had(I guess guns would be an exception, they came at the very end though) it sure as hell wasn't fast.
 
Well day to day life and your standard HRE setup. Islamic caliphates and Byzantine Empire were set up more like classical civ.

No it doesn't do the same damage cause when you're split in a hundred pieces the scale of civil war's is considerably smaller. And they did have the numbers to dominate the region again the main reason the Middle Ages were so backwards as opposed to earlier is hyper decentralization, the region wasn't united, Germany alone had hundreds of mostly independent entities and that meant governments just didn't have the resources to do what they did in the classical civilization. And the church maintained a lot of the staples of classical civilization but the church was also(literally) walled off from the rest of society.

Well classical civs(Rome, Persia etc basically civilizations pre dominance of Islam and Christianity) weren't industrial but classical civs were kind of like modern life if you take away industrial technology, socially things were pretty similar to today while in Europe.....not so much. It's very hard to put a clear answer to your question in words though I have a clear picture of what I mean. But the building of churches took an incredibly long time and the number of churches that were architectural marvels were relatively few in number. Worship was also society's number one priority and like I said before the church was sort of an isolated time capsule into classical life in many ways. They did not advance further than classical civs and if by the end of the Middle Ages there were areas where they had(I guess guns would be an exception, they came at the very end though) it sure as hell wasn't fast.

How was life any better for a goat herder or farmer in the middle East compared to a farmer in Europe?

After the first Crusade many went back to Europe thinking their job was done. What stayed behind to defend was hardly enough to fight all the surrounding enemies that were vast in number.

The Holy Roman Empire united them and they were able to establish the Crusader States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire
The largest territory of the empire after 962 was the Kingdom of Germany

How were things socially the same as they are today? If you mean just in the Middle East then I agree things haven't changed much lol.

There's a lot more architectural marvels than you're making it out to be. So many castles and fortresses.

The Germanic tribes after being civilized by the Romans savaged their way in and used the remnants of the empire to make their own ethnic groups and kingdoms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period
The Migration Period was a period that lasted from 375 AD (possibly as early as 300 AD) to 538 AD

By 1204 they sacked Constantinople.

Europeans held off the Ottomans and advanced further than anyone after that. There are people still getting medieval on each others asses in the Middle East.
 
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