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The Jordan Peterson Thread - V2 -

http://torontoist.com/2017/05/room-jordan-peterson-senators-debated-human-rights/

Found the bow tie

I Was in the Room While Jordan Peterson and Senators Debated My Human Rights

On May 17, I travelled to Ottawa to watch the Senate committee hear witnesses testify against Canadian federal trans rights legislation, known as Bill C-16. It was also the International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia (IDAHOT). The sad irony of this was not lost on the many trans and non-binary people in the room.


Just before the hearing, trans people and allies held a rally for trans rights on the front lawn of Parliament Hill. The sun was shining down on the pink, blue, and white trans flag, blowing proudly in the wind in front of the Parliament buildings. It was a beautiful and emotional sight. At just over 100 people, it was a small but mighty crowd. Many got up to speak, including trans folk and politicians, such as NDP LGBTQ critics MPP Cheri DiNovo and MP Randall Garrison, who have both spent years fighting for trans rights.

Bill C-16 would amend the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code, adding gender identity and gender expression to the list of prohibited grounds of discrimination, in addition to sex, religion, race, and sexual orientation. Some Conservative senators, including Senator Don Plett, have been extremely vocal in their opposition to the bill and have actively crusaded to water it down with amendments.

And it was Plett who invited University of Toronto professor Jordan Peterson to speak. Peterson gained notoriety last year for his continued refusal to use gender-neutral pronouns to address his students. In a series of videos, he claimed that his free speech is threatened by what he considers to be “political correctness,” and that the bill is a slippery slope to a “totalitarian regime.”

Many considered it an insult that Peterson was invited to testify at all. Even more frustrating that well-known trans advocates and allies such as DiNovo, who introduced Toby’s Act and Susan Gapka, founder of the Trans Lobby Group, were not invited to speak.

Inside the Senate building, I prepared to pass through security and began to feel anxious about what I was going to hear. I wondered if I could sit quietly as my identity and my right to live as who I am, free from discrimination and violence, was debated by cis people.


Rally for Trans Rights. Photo by Sophia Banks.

I took a seat in the back and for two hours I listened to wealthy cis white men including Peterson express anguish over how protecting trans rights would limit free speech.

It’s always about free speech to these men. They see no hypocrisy when they can use their free speech to organize and speak out and oppose human rights legislation. But free speech is never free from criticism.

Peterson was allotted one hour of the two-hour Senate committee to speak. The psychology professor and his lawyer, Bruce Pardy, made preposterous claims about how C-16 could potentially land them in jail for not using a trans person’s chosen pronouns. Peterson’s outlandish statements, such as how trans people’s gender is subjective and that science has not yet proven that trans is even a thing, had my eyes rolling .

He claimed that activists use trans children as propaganda tools, even suggesting the gender unicorn is a tool used by trans adults to twist the minds of children into thinking they are trans. It was even argued that, since trans people made up only .3 per cent of the general population in Canada, that special provisions were absurd. Even if we are only .3 per cent of the population, we should still matter and be treated fairly as humans.

Peterson and Pardy are both extremely concerned about being legally “compelled” into using pronouns they don’t respect, even suggesting jail was a possible outcome.

The Canadian Bar Association cleared this up in a statement on May 10, stating that this was a gross misunderstanding of Bill C-16, and that freedom of speech was in no way being restricted or censored.

“Recently, the debate has turned to whether the amendments will force individuals to embrace concepts, even use pronouns, which they find objectionable. This is a misunderstanding of human rights and hate crimes legislation,” it states.

Nobody will face criminal charges for the casual or accidental misgendering of a trans person. However, what the legislation will do is enshrine into law that willful, repeated, deliberate misgendering of trans people is potential harassment and worthy of investigation.

I was sitting there in the back of the room listening to cis white men debate my rights, my existence, and the lack of “credible” science that would prove I am who I say I am. Trans people are constantly debated, dehumanized, and degraded. Cis people often talk about us as though we are not even here in the room, living out our lives.

Thankfully, Peterson did not manage to sway the votes. On May 18, after two weeks of hearings, the Senate committee passed C-16 with no amendments or observations. We are likely to see this bill pass into law. Tears of joy rolled down my face.

Bill C-16 now heads to a third and final vote in the Senate, before receiving royal assent. There have been six parliamentary incarnations of trans rights legislation moving through the House of Commons, or stalled in the Senate, since a law was first proposed by NDP MP Bill Siksay in 2005.

Throughout this process, the term “gender expression” has been the most controversial point. Many still do not understanding the differences between identity and expression. My identity is who I am; my expression is simply an expression of my identity. A good example of why gender expression was needed in the bill would be to protect trans people who are gender fluid, such as an individual who may wear a dress to work one day, then a more typical masculine outfit the next day, like a suit. Sometimes this is also called being non-binary.

Notice how that’s often acceptable for folks who are assigned female at birth, but not so much for those assigned male at birth.

Gender expression protection would also keep federal employees safe from termination in their jobs and offer recourse if they experience discrimination or harassment.

Many trans folks have found themselves locked out of bank accounts and, in some cases, accused of fraud, when banks do not believe their voice or presentation matches the gender they have on file.

Bill C-16 makes it clear, for all of Canada, that trans rights are human rights, and the safety and dignity of trans people must be respected. It will send a strong message to all institutions, private and public, that they must begin to address these problems, educate their employees on gender diversity, and hire trans and gender non-conforming people.

The legislation won’t completely end transphobic hiring practices. Transphobia will not disappear overnight. I lost my business when I came out as a trans woman and years later, I have still never come close to getting to the financial stability I had prior to my coming out. Many trans people have lost careers, but many more just don’t get hired at all. But it’s is a huge step forward.

“For non-binary, gender fluid and gender nonconforming trans people, and particularly those who do not ‘pass’ as the gender they identify with, protecting both gender identity and gender expression is absolutely required,” Fae Johnstone, an Ottawa-based trans activist, says.

“As a non-binary femme person who doesn’t ‘pass’ as a man or a woman, if I face violence or am the victim of a hate crime, I am most likely to be targeted because of my feminine expression—my tendency to wear makeup, dresses, and other clothing considered ‘women’s’—rather than my identity. Failing to protect both identity and expression would permit a continued and unacceptable gap in Canadian human rights legislation.”

CORRECTION: This story previously stated trans people made up only 3 per cent of the general population in Canada. The number is closer .3 per cent. Torontoist regrets the error.
 
I still can't decide which side to take on this, especially after watching a few hours of the Senate footage. It seems remarkable that so many Senators would be so confident that people like Peterson and Saad could continue to theorize and practice their professions without defying the law, and yet the precise wording of the Bill and the course of events that Peterson has documented over the last few months seem not to have been thoroughly addressed.

I suspect what will end up happening is that the Bill will become law and have much less of an impact on anyone's daily affairs than we've all been sort of imagining for the last little while, but if I'm wrong about that it's not too reassuring that it will be too late to intervene at that point.
 
I still can't decide which side to take on this, especially after watching a few hours of the Senate footage. It seems remarkable that so many Senators would be so confident that people like Peterson and Saad could continue to theorize and practice their professions without defying the law, and yet the precise wording of the Bill and the course of events that Peterson has documented over the last few months seem not to have been thoroughly addressed.

I suspect what will end up happening is that the Bill will become law and have much less of an impact on anyone's daily affairs than we've all been sort of imagining for the last little while, but if I'm wrong about that it's not too reassuring that it will be too late to intervene at that point.

It seems to me that the bill passing is the entire point and a victory unto itself. I don't think the proponents of the bill are concerned beyond that, and maybe getting Peterson fired.
 

As a fan of both Monty Python and Peterson how can I not like this? Especially given the fact that it work in the context of The Life of Brian, and the current SJW setting. Nice!
 
I still cant understand, is he religious or not??? Seriously asking.

He is religious. Jordan is a Christian Ben Shapiro. That's really all you need to know.

People who are impressed by this guy's "insights" are a mystery to me.
 
He is religious. Jordan is a Christian Ben Shapiro. That's really all you need to know.

People who are impressed by this guy's "insights" are a mystery to me.

A Christian Ben Shapiro? Peterson rarely talks about politics.
 
It seems to me that the bill passing is the entire point and a victory unto itself. I don't think the proponents of the bill are concerned beyond that, and maybe getting Peterson fired.

Seems that way. It's unfortunate that the narrative became "favour the Bill" vs. "dismiss trans rights" while the obvious middle ground became obfuscated. Even the Senators seemed unable to wrap their heads around the idea that opposing the Bill didn't mean no Bill of the kind should ever be passed, just that the current one, as written, is suspect and holds the potential for abuse.
 
The lulziest 4 minutes of the Senate hearings for me were these:



I mean, the enemy of my enemy and all that, but I can't help but hope we see Peterson share a stage with her at some point as well.
 
Seems that way. It's unfortunate that the narrative became "favour the Bill" vs. "dismiss trans rights" and the obvious middle ground became obfuscated. Even the Senators seemed unable to wrap their heads around the idea that opposing the Bill didn't mean no Bill of the kind should ever be passed, just that the current one, as written, is suspect and holds the potential for abuse.

Yeah, I was alarmed by everyone's lack of insight on the topic, and the fact that nobody gave the impression that they understood what Peterson argued. Look back at the responses, they're all non sequiturs. Some were even proud of their ignorance. I don't even know how you can pass a bill under these circumstances.
 
A Christian Ben Shapiro? Peterson rarely talks about politics.

I meant he is a religious conservative who claims that his absolutist positions on morality and culture are not based on the teachings of his religion but are based on some "other" mode of truth apprehension.
 
The senate hearing was just sad to watch. It was just like a bunch of 3 year olds trying to take down an adult male. Peterson had absolutely no trouble coming out on top with his professional knowledge, logic and facts.

But at the end of the day, the politicians knew (or not) that he was right and he made sense. They didn't care about that. They just calculated the potential, short term, political points to be made at either side of the decision... and made their choice.
 
Yeah, I was alarmed by everyone's lack of insight on the topic, and the fact that nobody gave the impression that they understood what Peterson argued. Look back at the responses, they're all non sequiturs. Some were even proud of their ignorance. I don't even know how you can pass a bill under these circumstances.

Yea, it was kind of nice to see a little passion in there, but it would have been nicer if the passion was properly informed. I lol'd when the one Senator asked Peterson to explain the gender categories again because she'd never heard of any of this before.

I wonder if that's a better measure of how impactful all this noise has really been on the broader society. Very few people in my own immediate surroundings are aware of any of it either.
 
I meant he is a religious conservative who claims that his absolutist positions on morality and culture are not based on the teachings of his religion but are based on some "other" mode of truth apprehension.
The fact that you claim he has "absolutist positions" makes me think your picture about the man is very limited.
 
Yea, it was kind of nice to see a little passion in there, but it would have been nicer if the passion was properly informed. I lol'd when the one Senator asked Peterson to explain the gender categories again because she'd never heard of any of this before.

I wonder if that's a better measure of how impactful all this noise has really been on the broader society. Very few people in my own immediate surroundings are aware of any of it either.

Not long ago a co-worker asked me if I had heard anything about "some bill" that was "messing with gender stuff", and I don't believe that this ignorance is uncommon. It's almost too surreal for normal people to believe.
 
I think it's perfectly fine to discriminate against a person on the basis of their identity as a person.........

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I think it's perfectly fine to discriminate against a person on the basis of their identity as a person.........

wtf%20%282%29.gif
Is it discriminating if the persons identity is wrong?

Do you believe identity is a whim?

Is there fair and unfair discrimination?
 
The fact that you claim he has "absolutist positions" makes me think your picture about the man is very limited.

I am very, very familiar with evangelical Christianity. Its adherents are personally "absolutist" in their perceptions and definitions of what constitutes good and what constitutes evil.

I can respect the integrity of a Christian who says, "I believe X is right (or wrong) because that's what my interpretation of scripture indicates."

But not a person who says, "I believe X is right (or wrong) because <philosophical and metaphysical word salad>... Oh, and just by coincidence that's also what my interpretation of scripture indicates, too."

I place Peterson in the latter camp based on the interview segments I have heard.
 
I am very, very familiar with evangelical Christianity. Its adherents are personally "absolutist" in their perceptions and definitions of what constitutes good and what constitutes evil.

I can respect the integrity of a Christian who says, "I believe X is right (or wrong) because that's what my interpretation of scripture indicates."

But not a person who says, "I believe X is right (or wrong) because <philosophical and metaphysical word salad>... Oh, and just by coincidence that's also what my interpretation of scripture indicates, too."

I place Peterson in the latter camp based on the interview segments I have heard.

Most Christians believe that morality is dictated by the Bible, and emphasized in nature. It's not one or the other.

You've also been claiming a lot of stuff about Peterson that is simply untrue. He has never confirmed that he's a Christian, and in fact, the fact that he refuses to acknowledge or deny it would be evidence that he's not a Christian because the Bible clearly teaches us to put our lamps on a stand, not under our beds, as it were.
 
I am very, very familiar with evangelical Christianity. Its adherents are personally "absolutist" in their perceptions and definitions of what constitutes good and what constitutes evil.

I can respect the integrity of a Christian who says, "I believe X is right (or wrong) because that's what my interpretation of scripture indicates."

But not a person who says, "I believe X is right (or wrong) because <philosophical and metaphysical word salad>... Oh, and just by coincidence that's also what my interpretation of scripture indicates, too."

I place Peterson in the latter camp based on the interview segments I have heard.

It appears as though you really haven't listen to Peterson at all.
 
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