The Jordan Peterson Thread - V2 -

Kafir-kun said:
Its not just that, its that she hates Islam completely and her motivation in talking about it is entirely to criticize it so she has no rapport in the Muslim community in any way, shape, or form. That's why I made the comparison between her reforming Islam and Dawkins reforming Catholicism. Even if Dawkins somehow came up with some reasonable reform program for the Catholic Church there's no way they'd accept it coming from Dawkins given his status as a vociferous critic of Christianity and religion more generally.
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I was going to add something to my last post clarifying that this is what I understood from your post.

She can act as a facilitator of change from the outside in the vein of secularist pressure on Catholicism or what have you.

But her rewriting Islam's doctrine and practice is presumptuous and most likely a failed endeavor.
 
splendica said:
I was going to add something to my last post clarifying that this is what I understood from your post.

She can act as a facilitator of change from the outside in the vein of secularist pressure on Catholicism or what have you.

But her rewriting Islam's doctrine and practice is presumptuous and most likely a failed endeavor.
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Exactly. I'm not saying he shouldn't talk to her. Personally from what I have seen of her she's mainly an anti-Islam polemicists but that doesn't mean she's never worth talking to. But it does mean she's not a valuable voice when it comes to parsing out Islamic doctrine in such a way that might allow for a blueprint for some sort of reformation or what have you.
 
@Kafir-kun

On reading your post again, I never gather that Aayan (in your words), "hates Islam completely and her motivation in talking about it is entirely to criticize."

I think this shows how frightening the divide between Muslims and many non-Muslims is regarding perception. I always sense that Ayaan is wanting to work-with and accept Islam, but wants a more domesticated version to prevail.
 
splendica said:
@Kafir-kun

On reading your post again, I never gather that Aayan (in your words), "hates Islam completely and her motivation in talking about it is entirely to criticize."

I think this shows how frightening the divide between Muslims and many non-Muslims is regarding perception. I always sense that Ayaan is wanting to work-with and accept Islam, but wants a more domesticated version to prevail.
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She has said in the past that we are at war with Islam and that Islam needs to be defeated. Not really very ambiguous there about her feelings on the matter.
 
Kafir-kun said:
She has said in the past that we are at war with Islam and that Islam needs to be defeated. Not really very ambiguous there about her feelings on the matter.
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Okay, I've not heard or read that. Again, I've only watched a handful of her videos before. But I guess we'll just have to agree that she doesn't strike me as one who's going to rewrite Islam.
 
These are worth watching if people haven't seen them yet:







For as much (social) media attention as Peterson has gotten, I expect he'll be seen a lot more these next few months leading up to and following the publication of his upcoming book, 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos:

Amazon product ASIN 0345816021
 
Kafir-kun said:
She has said in the past that we are at war with Islam and that Islam needs to be defeated. Not really very ambiguous there about her feelings on the matter.
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We are at war with Islam. You can say isis isn’t Islam. You can say the Taliban isn’t. You can say al shabab isn’t. You can say aq isn’t. You can say ht isn’t. You can say Saudi Arabia isn’t. You can say Iraq isn’t. You can say Pakistan isn’t. At some point you have to admit that even in the very best Islamic countries apostasy being illegal and blasphemy being illegal are still things we are at political war with. I mean we have no problem going to war with Christians politically to ensure gay marriage. But somehow wanting Islam as it is practiced everywhere it is the majority to align more with our values is bad
 
Kafir-kun said:
Exactly. I'm not saying he shouldn't talk to her. Personally from what I have seen of her she's mainly an anti-Islam polemicists but that doesn't mean she's never worth talking to. But it does mean she's not a valuable voice when it comes to parsing out Islamic doctrine in such a way that might allow for a blueprint for some sort of reformation or what have you.
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Are you honestly full of it enough to think that's remotely ever going to be a possibility.

Islam is a cancer that will spread or be destroyed, there is no inbetween.
 
Has anyone pre-ordered Jordan Peterson's book?

12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos


41KsQI0vd6L._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 
Kafir-kun said:
I haven't listened to it but the idea that Ayaan Hirsi Ali can act as any sort of catalyst for positive change in the Muslim community is one of the most deluded ideas I have ever come across. Its like thinking Richard Dawkins can reform the Catholic Church.
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Kafir-kun said:
Its not just that, its that she hates Islam completely and her motivation in talking about it is entirely to criticize it so she has no rapport in the Muslim community in any way, shape, or form. That's why I made the comparison between her reforming Islam and Dawkins reforming Catholicism. Even if Dawkins somehow came up with some reasonable reform program for the Catholic Church there's no way they'd accept it coming from Dawkins given his status as a vociferous critic of Christianity and religion more generally.
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As a Muslim - I can agree with this statement entirely.

Ayaan literally has no standing or rapport in the Muslim community. But in general there does seem to be a lack of communication or discussion with Islamic theologians who do have a rapport with the Muslim community. Nearly all the interviews I see on progressive podcasts like Peterson/Harris are all conversations/discussions with ex-Muslims who obviously have had bad experiences. It would be nice to have a moderate Muslim theologian who has extensive knowledge about Islamic theology/reformation elements who has influence in the Muslim world debate/discuss with guys like Peterson/Harris. Ali Rivzi, Ayaan and even Maajid Nawaz - in all honesty none of them have any influence or rapport in the Muslim community. Someone like Sheikh Hamza Yusuf would be very ideal.

As far as reformation goes - reformation/progressive elements in Islam have existed for a very long time. They are and have been drowned out for a very long time - I feel it's because of the environment of the Middle East.

You can trace back most of the extremist narratives that dominate today within Islam to the 20th century. Those narratives will always thrive an excel in extremely repressive regimes/environments and in fact that's how most of them developed in the 20th century and earlier. All of us are shaped by the environments we live in and if you live in a repressive authoritarian hell hole like Syria/Iraq/Saudi - it's not that hard to imagine hard-line extreme religious narratives bubbling up to the fore when you witness the repression/violence on a daily basis. I'm talking say the wrong thing and end up in jail tortured or possibly murdered. I mean the Muslim brotherhood developed under those exact circumstances. The Mujahideen and the Taliban also developed under similar circumstances.

I think also part of the issue is many of these countries didn't exist and haven't had centralized governments in hundreds of years. Before western colonialism there was Ottoman colonialism - many of these countries simply don't have a big pool to draw quality political candidates or people with effective leadership skills.

I mean look throughout the Middle East and most of the governments that have ruled have been from the military - not the political establishment. The reason why military governments have managed to rule is because the political establishment have been ineffectual with management or prone to corruption/serving foreign interest and eventually lose the support of the mob. Then comes to coup.
 
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Care to explain the laws in whatever you pick as the best Islamic country
 
Skulli said:
Are you honestly full of it enough to think that's remotely ever going to be a possibility.

Islam is a cancer that will spread or be destroyed, there is no inbetween.
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if your solution to a problem is genociding 20%+ of the world population you don't have a solution worth talking about.
 
Quipling said:
if your solution to a problem is genociding 20%+ of the world population you don't have a solution worth talking about.
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Wherein the hell did i ever say that you nut fuck ?

islam is an ideology not a people, it can be destroyed and eradicated with little human loss expect the jihadist terrorist scum that deserve being annihilated.
 
Kafir-kun said:
I'm more interesting in Maps of Meaning which unfortunately is not available right now at my library.
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You're aware it's available in full online, ye? Link to PDF can be reached through here.

Another book recommendation I could make that comes from a very similar position (prioritizing values over objects in the human perceptual landscape and using that to resolve various philosophical conundrums) is "Lila: An Inquiry into Morals". It was written by the same guy who wrote "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" and meant to be a sort of sequel and extension to that.

@Bullitt68 I haven't had a chance to sell you on "Zen" in the SMD but you can bet I'm going to bring it up at some point soon, enticing snapshots and all.
 
forum poster said:
Hipster.
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I get distracted too easily, if I try to read that shit I'll be back posting here before I even get through 5 pages. Plus I just find it less convenient and fun, prefer reading with the book in my hand. Its a bad habit though, if I could get into eBooks there's so much I could read that I otherwise would have difficult time getting my hands on.
 
Kafir-kun said:
I get distracted too easily, if I try to read that shit I'll be back posting here before I even get through 5 pages. Plus I just find it less convenient and fun, prefer reading with the book in my hand. Its a bad habit though, if I could get into eBooks there's so much I could read that I otherwise would have difficult time getting my hands on.
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Yeah I'm the same. I bought a e-reader years and I just couldn't get comfortable laying down and reading quite like a physical book. I only ordered it because I wanted a book that was only released via e-book.I had my internet cut off for almost a week when I was changing plans a few months back and got through 3 books that I ordered months ago but just never got around to reading. It's amazing how distracting the internet is and how much time you can waste reading sherdog shitposts.
 
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