The Gracie Debate: "Online" vs. "Live" Training

[SBJ]

From: https://www.youtube.com/user/GracieAcademy

VIDEO RESPONSE: Online vs. Live Training

Ryron and Rener Respond to the Controversy
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There has been a lot of controversy surrounding a recent article/interview that was published in a Brazilian magazine in which Rener Gracie emphasized some of the advantages of internet-based jiu-jitsu training. If you haven't read it, here is a link to the article in English. After speaking to several members of the family, Rener and Ryron release this video to provide their thoughts on the issue and to discuss the most common misconceptions about Gracie University. They also discuss a modification to the GU belt promotion process that is outlined in more detail in the next story.

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*** New GU Belt Promotion Process ***​

Gracie University "Technical Blue Belts" for Online Students​

In the video above, Ryron and Rener discuss a modification to the Gracie University belt promotion process. Effective June 1, 2014, students who complete the Gracie Combatives program from home, and pass the Blue Belt Test via the Video Evaluation Process, will earn a Gracie University Technical Blue Belt. To earn the Official Gracie Academy Blue Belt, students must pass an extended hands-on evaluation with Ryron, Rener, or an authorized Gracie Academy representative at a Certified Training Center.

As before, promotion to purple belt and brown belt require an in person evaluation with an authorized Gracie Academy representative, and black belt promotion requires successful completion of a one-week live evaluation at Gracie Academy headquarters in Torrance, California.

FAQs for the New Blue Belt Promotion Process​

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1) What is the purpose of introducing the Technical Blue Belt?

The testing requirements for the Technical Blue Belt are no different than they were for the Official Blue Belt over the last five years. The only difference is after June 1, 2014, we will only award the Official Blue Belt to people who have their reflexes verified in person at an authorized CTC. In other words, the primary difference between Technical and Official Blue Belt, besides the tag on the actual belt awarded, exists only in the method of verification, not in the curriculum or techniques covered. The primary purpose of introducing the Technical Blue Belt is to encourage more Gracie University students to have their reflexes verified in person by a qualified instructor so that they can benefit from hands-on assessment and feedback.
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2) What if I already earned my belt through Gracie University Video Evaluation Process, is it still recognized as an Official Blue Belt?

Yes, we will grandfather all Gracie University blue belts earned through video evaluation prior to June 1, 2014 as official belts without requiring live evaluation. Any video-based blue belt tests submitted by home-study students on or after June 1, 2014, will be Gracie University Technical Blue Belts.​

3) If I earn my Technical Blue Belt, how do I earn my Official Blue Belt?

When you pass the video-based blue belt tests and earn your Technical Blue Belt, you will receive detailed feedback on all your strengths and weaknesses. Once you've implemented the recommended changes, you can request a Live Evaluation at the Gracie Academy or at an authorized CTC. If you pass the test, the evaluator will award your Official Blue Belt in person. Please note that although we recommend you earn your Technical Blue Belt before testing for your Official Blue Belt, it is not required. If you think you have the reflexes and conviction necessary, you can jump straight to the Live Evaluation for Official Blue Belt consideration without having earned your Technical Blue Belt.​

4) What's the difference between the Live Evaluation and the Video Evaluation?

Although the techniques being tested are exactly the same, there are some significant differences between testing via video and testing in person. The Video Evaluation is conducted with a partner of your choosing in a controlled environment where you can repeat the test as many times as you want before you submit your videos. The Live Evaluation is conducted by an authorized evaluator who will test your timing, technique, reflexes and conviction, and you only get one shot at it.​

5) If I earn a Technical Blue Belt, am I still able to advance through the Master Cycle curriculum and work towards purple belt?

Yes. Earning the Technical Blue Belt is a perfect indicator that you have successfully completed the Gracie Combatives course, and qualifies you to begin the Master Cycle. Once you pass the Blue Belt Stripe 1 course via the Video Evaluation Process, we will send you the official BBS1 stripe for wear on your Technical Belt. After you earn all four stripes, you may take the live Purple Belt Test even though you may have never earned the Official Blue Belt.​

6) If I train at a CTC, does the new belt promotion process affect me?

No. All belt promotions issued to CTC students who complete the CTC attendance/proficiency requirements for blue belt consideration will be Official Blue Belts.​

7) If I want to apply for the Instructor Certification Program (ICP), how does the new process affect me?

The qualification requirement for ICP consideration is the same. If you score 90+ on your Gracie Combatives test and earn your Technical Blue Belt, you will have the opportunity to apply for the ICP. If accepted, and you pass Phase 2 of the ICP, you will be evaluated for your Official Blue Belt in person at the Gracie Academy as part of the Phase 3 final evaluation.​

More information will be available when the new system kicks in on June 1. Until then, keep training.

Testimony from the Great Javier Vazquez:

From: https://www.facebook.com/GracieAcademy

 

[Senshi]

Sooo sign up for their online classes?

 

[lechien]

Thank you, Royce. Finally.

 

[nooper]

Modern advertising is based on the 4 P principal.

1. Pain: must suck not having a decent/street ready BJJ gym near you.
2. Promise: You can learn the best ever BBJ and right in the comfort of your own home.
3. Proof: Just check these happy customer testimonials.
4. Price: and all that for just this much money.

 

[Ishaq]

Initially, they used to justify their online belts and training by saying it's only for those that don't have accessibility to dojos or for supplemental knowledge.

Are they now singing a different tune?

 

[soda_popinski]

How are they doing in tournaments? When the online only programs start producing top level competitors then I can see 'debate'. Until that happens there is no debate.

A little info on online learning in general - in universities the dropout rate from a 4 year degree program is double that of a face to face program. Only about 40% of students actually ever graduate from fully online programs whereas about 70% graduate from face to face. BJJ has a huge dropout rate to begin with. I wouldn't worry about online bjj threatening schools, getting students that have access to bjj, etc.

 

[Marbig]

:redface:I only watched the first ten minutes since I'm busy (if you want us to discuss the whole thirty minutes, you should provide cliffs).

From my ten minutes, let me just say this:

- Ryron/Rener talked about people being upset because they were afraid their students were being taken from their school. In my opinion though, through looking at the two other threads and talking to my own coach, this is not the main issue at all - people are upset because GJJ students are being awarded their belts without spending the time normal students would on the mat.

- I highly doubt that 90% of the students went to live gyms after seeing GJJ. I know several of my untrained friends signed up, decided they didn't like it, and didn't continue. Many of my BJJ buddies signed up as well just to see what the fuss is about- we did not leave GJJ because we wanted to train at a real gym...we WERE already at a real gym.

- Then Rener tries to spin it off by saying GJJ is for people who live in remote areas. This may be true in some cases but in most cases there is always a judo/bjj dojo close by. I mean, since I have a GJJ account, I sometimes get emails from people inviting me to train in their garage even though I live in Sydney which is the furthest thing away from a remote town.

- Saying their uncles do not understand GJJ because they haven't signed up on the website - erm, pretty sure there are videos of people from a GJJ CTC rolling up on youtube (like the one I posted last time). You don't need Royce to tell you those people's technique suck...heck, a fourth stripe like me can do so.

- Analogy to BJJ "you have to see it to believe it"...well yeah, no. Like I said, many people on this forum have actually signed up on the website or at least seen some of the material you posted. Or the material other people posted like the CTC videos. Yeah, we've all seen it...still don't believe it.

 

[slideyfoot]

Effective June 1, 2014, students who complete the Gracie Combatives program from home, and pass the Blue Belt Test via the Video Evaluation Process, will earn a Gracie University "Technical Blue Belt." To earn the Official Gracie Academy Blue Belt, students must pass an extended hands-on evaluation with Ryron, Rener, or an authorized Gracie Academy representative at a Certified Training Center.

That sounds like a positive move, though it doesn't address two of the central problems:

1. There is no sparring, just 'simulations' which are semi-contact at best given their highly cooperative nature. Fine as a training tool, but not equivalent to sparring with full resistance.

2. The student isn't evaluated over a long period, sparring with both their instructor and a range of people with different body types/belt levels/athleticism etc. Currently belts are awarded based on based on one set of videos (from a single test, if I remember the submission stipulations correctly) or one in-person test, as far as I can tell.

Still, I'm pleased that it sounds like they are at least doing something in the face of all the criticism. Hopefully that's the first step of many.

 

[nooper]

That sounds like a positive move, though it doesn't address two of the central problems:

1. There is no sparring, just 'simulations' which are semi-contact at best given their highly cooperative nature. Fine as a training tool, but not equivalent to sparring with full resistance.

2. The student isn't evaluated over a long period, sparring with both their instructor and a range of people with different body types/belt levels/athleticism etc. Currently belts are awarded based on based on one set of videos (from a single test, if I remember the submission stipulations correctly) or one in-person test, as far as I can tell.

Still, I'm pleased that it sounds like they are at least doing something in the face of all the criticism. Hopefully that's the first step of many.

Perhaps you dont need full resistance sparring for it to be useful against an untrained punk on the street?

 

[Jamesvickery88]

Yeah this has definitely caused some controversy...I would say the online videos (not just the Gracie university) are good ideas in terms of how to learn a technique. But sorry, you gotta try it and test it. You got to work for the position to do the technique etc..

You can't beat live classes...I get Rener's point that when you go to a class there are people of all different levels and the technique is taught that not everybody may grasp at the same level but come on, that's where the professor steps in...Maybe Rener is assuming teachers do not pay attention to their students??

The online videos are great, myself and I'm sure many others go on youtube and check out techniques...Maybe you find one which Marcelo is doing etc, but you still need that live practise on the mats...

People should use videos just as side piece to their live training whilst they're not at class..

 

[Fightshopca]

Nothing can beat training with live partners and an instructor that knows what they are doing. These video might be okay to supplement training but can't replace the gym.

 

[LaBrian]

A belt is a belt. These two hucksters can try to qualify, obfuscate and bullshit all they want, but the fact of the matter is that what they are doing is a disingenuous bait and switch.

Do we really need them to have 3 fucking threads where they spew their bullshit? You can't court the Martial Arts pretenders with watered down BJJ and still maintain the respect of the people that know better. Get over it, you fucking guys decided to shit all over yourselves so you could make as much money as possible off of the fact that you were born a Gracie. Good for you, now go deal with that nagging feeling in your soul by driving your sports cars and being LA douchebros and leave the rest of us alone. You will not find absolution here.

 

[the heed]

Do we really need them to have 3 fucking threads where they spew their bullshit?

How else SBJ suppose to justify his existence?

 

[dalexan242]

For those too lazy to watch the video, is a "technical blue belt" still a physical belt that they send you to wrap around your waist or is it now imaginary and you just get some kind of certificate?

 

[Leify]

Do we really need them to have 3 fucking threads where they spew their bullshit?

Apparently we do, because everyone loves to blow these threads up and give the source links tons of hits. It's a positive feedback loop.

If you don't like it, ignore SBJ's posts and help diminish his presence. He's basically a link bait troll.

 

[nooper]

Not greatly enamoured with his use of the word “captures”.

 

[Ryo]

Perhaps you dont need full resistance sparring for it to be useful against an untrained punk on the street?

Bullshit...

Full resistance experience and ability to apply those techniques when someone is trying their best to NOT LET YOU SUCCEED... is exactly what you need when we are talking about fighting. Go learn a triangle choke setup or an omaplata off of youtube... then go try and apply that same move to even the lowest whitebelt in the class in full sparring and then i guarantee you'll see the difference...

Contrary to popular belief... street punks have brains too and are not all pussies. You go for your triangle choke with no experience actually setting it up and finishing it on a live resisting guy... then he picks you up and slams you on your head cause you dont know the proper way to execute it safely... thats assuming you are actually successful in setting it up...

 

[nooper]

Bullshit...

Full resistance experience and ability to apply those techniques when someone is trying their best to NOT LET YOU SUCCEED... is exactly what you need when we are talking about fighting. Go learn a triangle choke setup or an omaplata off of youtube... then go try and apply that same move to even the lowest whitebelt in the class in full sparring and then i guarantee you'll see the difference...

Contrary to popular belief... street punks have brains too and are not all pussies. You go for your triangle choke with no experience actually setting it up and finishing it on a live resisting guy... then he picks you up and slams you on your head cause you dont know the proper way to execute it safely... thats assuming you are actually successful in setting it up...

Note that my comment was a question and not opinion/statement!

 

[bjh13]

Nothing can beat training with live partners and an instructor that knows what they are doing. These video might be okay to supplement training but can't replace the gym.

Which is pretty much what the first 10 minutes of the video explain. Rener said the quotes about him saying training through Gracie University was better in person were taken out of context, that his point was specific aspects of online learning are better, things like being able to rewind the video and a structured curriculum where you can watch them in order. They specifically say in the video that learning through videos isn't as good as learning from a good instructor with multiple training partners and that if you are at a school you should stay there.

 

[tbonejackson]

FWIW they have finally officially changed the most controversial aspect of Gracie University, online belt promotions.

Many times people have made posts saying that the belt promotion aspect of Gracie University wouldn't be so bad if they called the blue belt something else or made some other distinction indicating that it wasn't the same belt as everyone else's. I'm sure this development is way too late in many people's eyes and as far as many critics are concerned the fact that they ever had online belt promotions has done irreparable damage to their reputation.

I wonder what effect, if any, this will have on Gracie University and I also wonder what perceptions of the Gracie Academy would be in general had they never had the belt promotions in the first place.