Opinion The Fall of America is here

[spamking]

I guess anything's possible, but note that we were heading toward full employment before Trump fucked everything up. Not seeing the argument for intervening in markets to raise prices to indirectly try to help a small subset of workers get slightly above-minimum-wage jobs. Wouldn't it be easier, cheaper, and more moral to just directly tax consumers and give money to some low-wage workers, if that's your thing?

Are you arguing for UBI?

I don't have a thing . . .

I don't get the question. I don't think there's any reason to expect that factory jobs that have left would pay better than shift supervisors at McDonald's make unless they're unionized, and so a better solution than cronyism that might indirectly help some workers would be to unionize the McDonald's workers.

You don't get the comment/statement about expecting that a supervisor at a metal fabrication shop would have better pay and benefits than a supervisor at McDonald's?

 

[Jack V Savage]

Are you arguing for UBI?

I don't have a thing . . .

No, I don't like UBI, though I think it would be better than what you're talking about (as would be simply taxing and redistributing to specific workers rather than indirectly taxing a lot more to influence them to get higher wages).

You don't get the comment/statement about expecting that a supervisor at a metal fabrication shop would have better pay and benefits than a supervisor at McDonald's?

Referring to this: "if we're going to complain about how much a shift supervisor working at McDonald's makes and then also give less consideration to the possibility that they could move over to a different employer and do the same type of job while making more money why be concerned about implementing any of the changes at all?"

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

There is some level of skill required for every job . . . I worked in retail as a Freshman in college almost 30 years ago. I had absolutely no sales skills at all . . . all I needed to know how to do was look up catalog orders and be able to go to the store room to find them. I worked with two older ladies who had been with JCPenney for decades. I have no clue what they made. Right after I graduated college I worked for a short time at a hardware store. I helped folks complete purchases and would consider that very similar to what someone at Autozone would possibly do as a counter employee/checker. I didn't need to be a licensed contractor or have a significant amount of construction knowledge to check folks out or look up a part or other information that the customer needed.




Thanks . . . but that wasn't really what I asked about.




I never said the workers were unworthy . . . but thanks for assuming you know the full extent of my view on this . . .





Average hourly pay at Walmart is $13 or so. Home Depot is a little over $12. Taco Bell is just under $10. Pizza Hut is just under $9 and KFC is just over $9. Kroger is just over $10.

UPS is in your top 10 and has an average hourly wage of almost $17 . . . with almost as many employees as McDonalds. FedEx is just ahead of UPS in the number of employees and pays an average salary of $72k.

Different jobs require different skills and pays accordingly . . .



Well . . . thanks for making yet another assumption and throwing out more lies. I never said they weren't worth more pay. Even though all of the folks you seem to be concerned about are making more than that amount on average.



Stop projecting your crap on to me please . . . you have nothing I have posted on here to base this crap statement on.

Again . . . thanks for assuming things . . . if you can't discuss this stuff without throwing crap against the wall in an attempt to downgrade what I've said and twist it to try and make your views superior then just move on . . . you haven't answered much of what I've asked and have continually insulted me and fabricated stuff to try and prove some imaginary point or speak against something I'm not saying.

1. I see you haven't bothered reading any sources. Studies show that minimum wage increases productivity. Increased productivity increaeses profits.

A fair minimum wage gives the workering poor more spending power, putting money into the economy.

Livable minimum wage takes people off of public aid, saving $150 billion in taxes.

Long story short, if you Google it you'd see it pays for itself.

2. Nine dollars, $10, and $11 an hour are still poverty wages.

3. You've said

But let's be real, many of these low skill, low paying jobs have never really been meant to be held by someone long-term or to support a family. That's what needs to be addressed. There needs to be some means in place to get these folks into a position to learn more skills and progress into a better paying job that will actually allow them to support a family.

And

Please help me understand why someone (an adult over 30) with minimum skills should make more for doing that same job often held by these high schoolers you mentioned.

You are saying low pay jobs are filled by kids; they arent. 90% are adults aged 24 to 54 years old. You've said low paying jobs are low skill; plenty are not. You say they shkuld just go get skills for different work; in many rural places walmart or similar are the only employers. Do you support publicly funded higher education to give skills (even though 44% of low pay workers already have college experience).

These low paying jobs are what make Walmart, amazon and McDonald's their billions.

Why are some high skill jobs low paying? Paramedics, architects, translators etc are not paid up to the importance and skill required for the work that they do.

Should a work force be paid
A) proportional to the income they generate

Or

B) proportional to the skill required?

Which do you think?

And if you think I've been insulting then you should get some thicker skin.

 

[tramendous]

I have this theory that a hundred years from now, people will point to 9-11 as the beginning of the end for the US in history classes. Covid-19 is just another milestone in the decline.

Thats pretty fucked considering osama's plan was to bleed America dry. I'd say it was the Iraq war. There was tons of pro America solidarity all over the world after 9/11. All of which the Iraq war destroyed.

 

[tramendous]

I would say his picks ended up being more swampy than what they should have been based on his campaign. When you get to that town, you have to play ball with some of the people in that town to have ANY friends in that town, especially with the media after you so hard.

He doesnt just play the game, he changed it to show they could be much worse than usual and get away with it.

 

[Amerikuracana]

He doesnt just play the game, he changed it to show they could be much worse than usual and get away with it.

The people that switched that got him in hated the Bolton pick, and haven't liked some of the others. The movement behind Trump is an appropriately pro-nationalistic one, who sees the social decay and division ID politics is creating. The left is also literally acting like strange children at the moment, so the alternative is unfortunately worse to a majority of independents.

 

[deviake]

The United States is about money and always had been. The pleasantries are disappearing though.

True, although not even pleasantries were there for specific segments of the population.

It's a strange time in so much as it seems like the corruption is more out in the open due in large part to the internets and yet the propaganda is thicker and more well disguised than ever and there's more distractions for the general public. The mainstream media is so propagandized that it may as well be government run.

I remember something George Carlin said, along the lines of there being a large selection of choices for things that don't matter but a narrow selection for things that do

 

[spamking]

No, I don't like UBI, though I think it would be better than what you're talking about (as would be simply taxing and redistributing to specific workers rather than indirectly taxing a lot more to influence them to get higher wages).

How is what I talked about even close to "simply taxing and redistributing to specific workers"? Outside of a possible career change or bringing new jobs back into the US I never specifically discussed how it might happen.

Referring to this: "if we're going to complain about how much a shift supervisor working at McDonald's makes and then also give less consideration to the possibility that they could move over to a different employer and do the same type of job while making more money why be concerned about implementing any of the changes at all?"

What aren't you getting about the question and I'll try to clear it up.

 

[spamking]

1. I see you haven't bothered reading any sources. Studies show that minimum wage increases productivity. Increased productivity increaeses profits.

A fair minimum wage gives the workering poor more spending power, putting money into the economy.

Livable minimum wage takes people off of public aid, saving $150 billion in taxes.

Long story short, if you Google it you'd see it pays for itself.

You could very well be correct . . . but what does that have to do with my post?

2. Nine dollars, $10, and $11 an hour are still poverty wages.

Depends on the person making those wages individual situations IMO . . .

You are saying low pay jobs are filled by kids; they arent.

Nope . . . I'm saying and have said that those jobs were never intended to be held by someone hoping to support a family long term . . . You brought up who actually holds those types of jobs.

You've said low paying jobs are low skill; plenty are not.

My comment wasn't all inclusive of every low paying job. It was specific to the McDonald's and Walmarts of the world.

You say they shkuld just go get skills for different work; in many rural places walmart or similar are the only employers. Do you support publicly funded higher education to give skills (even though 44% of low pay workers already have college experience).

I said we need to do something about this skill gap . . . I mean for craps sake dude . . . you even quoted what I said and still didn't fully grasp the point. Here it is again just in case:

There needs to be some means in place to get these folks into a position to learn more skills and progress into a better paying job that will actually allow them to support a family.

These low paying jobs are what make Walmart, amazon and McDonald's their billions.

Where did I post anything that needed to have this clarified?

Why are some high skill jobs low paying? Paramedics, architects, translators etc are not paid up to the importance and skill required for the work that they do.

Should a work force be paid
A) proportional to the income they generate

Or

B) proportional to the skill required?

Which do you think?

Some jobs are paid based on preconfigured wage/time in grade pay tables . . . and include additional benefits based on skill involved. Yet the same position with the same skill and educational requirements may not share the same pay scale from one employer to the next. Feds get paid more than State employees . . . which in turn are often paid more than County and City employees. Each of them could have the same experience, skills and education but their pay is based on where they work. Not what they do.

A doctor who works for a Federal health programs makes less than the same doctor who might work for a healthcare system or private practice. All with the same skills, education and experience, but totally different pay.

If a revenue-generating company wants to pay their folks a bonus to improve morale and retain high performers I'm all for it . . . and would think that makes good business sense.

And if you think I've been insulting then you should get some thicker skin.

Insulting, insinuating things to paint my opinion in a manner to support your preconceived ideas . . . take your pick.

 

[Hadron90]

1. I see you haven't bothered reading any sources. Studies show that minimum wage increases productivity. Increased productivity increaeses profits.

Why do we need minimum wage laws at all then? If increasing the minimum wage increases profits, shouldn't business be doing this voluntarily?

 

[Jack V Savage]

How is what I talked about even close to "simply taxing and redistributing to specific workers"? Outside of a possible career change or bringing new jobs back into the US I never specifically discussed how it might happen.

Any way the U.S. tried to force or entice manufacturers to "bring back" offshored jobs and then pay above minimum wage would have the consequences of raising costs for other Americans. So the impact is similar to simply taxing consumers to pay for the workers you want to quit their jobs and work in sweatshops, but it would be more complicated and less efficient than taxing and redistributing.

What aren't you getting about the question and I'll try to clear it up.

I really don't know what you're trying to ask.

 

[Higus]

Why do we need minimum wage laws at all then? If increasing the minimum wage increases profits, shouldn't business be doing this voluntarily?

Is this a serious question, or just a bad "gotcha" question?

 

[Hadron90]

Is this a serious question, or just a bad "gotcha" question?

Both.

 

[panamaican]

What aren't you getting about the question and I'll try to clear it up.

The question doesn't make any sense.

"if we're going to complain about how much a shift supervisor working at McDonald's makes and then also give less consideration to the possibility that they could move over to a different employer and do the same type of job while making more money why be concerned about implementing any of the changes at all?"

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Who is moving to a different employer and the same type of job. I saw the McDonald's thing, so a McDonald's worker moving to Wendy's? Jack mentioned different levels of unionization and I'm not sure where that falls into your question.

You should probably make it clearer because as written, I can't follow your train of thought.

 

[Higus]

Both.

So you're both stupid and trolling?

 

[Hadron90]

So you're both stupid and trolling?

If the question was stupid, you would have answered it by now.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Why do we need minimum wage laws at all then? If increasing the minimum wage increases profits, shouldn't business be doing this voluntarily?

Some brands are doing it voluntarily - see Whole Foods (owned by Amazon) and Aldi. As far as I know, they both pay above most states minimum wages and more than their competitors. I think Whole Foods is like $14 an hour.

For those that don't you'd have to ask them. My guess is the short term cost isn't acceptable to the execs and shareholders. American companies seem to pretty much only ever look to the next quarter and never beyond. Which is why Detroit has gotten spanked by Japan. Like GM only thinks "what can we do to boost next quarters sales" where as Toyota literally is planning for 20 years from now.

 

[spamking]

Any way the U.S. tried to force or entice manufacturers to "bring back" offshored jobs and then pay above minimum wage would have the consequences of raising costs for other Americans.

I get that aspect of this . . . and is partially my argument against raising wages for folks flipping burgers, etc. And I get that most corporations wouldn't be willing to play ball and increase wages without be forced to do so.

So the impact is similar to simply taxing consumers to pay for the workers you want to quit their jobs and work in sweatshops, but it would be more complicated and less efficient than taxing and redistributing.

I guess . . . the exception to this being that as a consumer I can make the choice to patronize a business and pay more for said burger or whatever. The tax wouldn't be our choice.

I really don't know what you're trying to ask.

I was just trying to show that being a manager is a skill that might be able to allow someone to make more money if they could change jobs. In response to this comment you made:

The reason repetitive manufacturing jobs have declined is that the labor isn't worth American wages. There's no way to change that and no good reason to try to. There's nothing inherent about those jobs that made them more valuable.

The manager at a welding shop or plumbing business would most definitely (at least in my experience) be expected to make more money than that McDonald's shift supervisor.

 

[panamaican]

Both.

Probably because the people responsible for making the wage decisions are unaware of the relationship and are applying short term thinking. Any increase in productivity would probably only come after a short term dip in revenue and so wage setters aren't willing to deal with the short term hit.

Personally, I think we should get of the minimum wage altogether.

But I also don't have a problem with corporations sending their manufacturing overseas. I think you have to have both or neither. If people want to go on and on about not making 3rd world wages then the minimum wage is part of that. And expecting $45k jobs for low skill and no skill manufacturing jobs is only possible if you artiicially impact the labor market through protectionism style policy. Let the employer find the cheapest wage, whether it's here or over seas. And if you won't do that out of some misguided attempt to protect the American standard of living then that mindset has to be extended to the minimum wage.

Otherwise it's an incomplete approach to the alleged concern. I say eliminate both. Wages will settle where they're supposed to settle on the international level and everyone will be better off.

 

[spamking]

Some brands are doing it voluntarily - see Whole Foods (owned by Amazon) and Aldi. As far as I know, they both pay above most states minimum wages and more than their competitors. I think Whole Foods is like $14 an hour.

For those that don't you'd have to ask them. My guess is the short term cost isn't acceptable to the execs and shareholders. American companies seem to pretty much only ever look to the next quarter and never beyond. Which is why Detroit has gotten spanked by Japan. Like GM only thinks "what can we do to boost next quarters sales" where as Toyota literally is planning for 20 years from now.

Several places do this . . . my youngest worked for a local grocery franchise as a checker last summer and started out making $9 or $10 an hour. I'm not sure what the older folks or other employees with more time were making.