Opinion The Fall of America is here

[spamking]

I hope you understand that if McDonalds doesn’t pay these employees a livable wage then state, local, and federal governments essentially step in to bridge the gap. Meanwhile McDonalds uses an army of high priced lawyers and accountants to figure out how to pay as few taxes as possible. McD’s can absolutely afford to pay these employees a livable wage, they don’t because they’re happy letting taxpayers foot the bill for them in the form of welfare programs while their executives and shareholders reap immense profits. Somehow they’ve convinced you that their own workers don’t deserve to get paid and that YOU should be subsidizing them so they can have their $50 million golden parachute. It’s a huge con job buddy.

Thanks for the reply . . . but you didn't really answer what I asked.

 

[moosaev]

Thanks for the reply . . . but you didn't really answer what I asked.

So you’re ok giving welfare to rich corporations?

As far as why these workers deserve to get paid, in the words of Clint Eastwood “deserves got nothing to do with it”. It’s simply good public policy. Corporations enjoy immense advantages from the public infrastructure in this country, those advantages should come with stipulations. Pay taxes, be good corporate citizens, and don’t pay your workers poverty wages. It has nothing to do with deserving anything, do you want a properly functioning country? I have no idea why you guys are willing to take the side of rich corporations that don’t give a shit about you at the expense of working class people.

 

[spamking]

Help me understand why "essential workers" deserve a non-livable wage?

So you want me to provide you with an answer all the while completely ignoring my question? Cool.

You obviously feel that the type of job someone does should gauge the pay . . . correct? Which essential job/workers pay were you referring to? Checkers at a grocery store? Amazon warehouse employees?

Are any of these "essential businesses" offering extra benefits to employees? Like hazard pay, etc.?

 

[spamking]

So you’re ok giving welfare to rich corporations?

As far as why these workers deserve to get paid, in the words of Clint Eastwood “deserves got nothing to do with it”. It’s simply good public policy. Corporations enjoy immense advantages from the public infrastructure in this country, those advantages should come with stipulations. Pay taxes, be good corporate citizens, and don’t pay your workers poverty wages. It has nothing to do with deserving anything, do you want a properly functioning country? I have no idea why you guys are willing to take the side of rich corporations that don’t give a shit about you at the expense of working class people.

Hold up there dude . . . you're jumping to a LOT of conclusions based on nothing I said.

Businesses should definitely take care of their employees better in my opinion. They should be using all of this "corporate welfare" to supplement employee improvement programs and pay.

But let's be real, many of these low skill, low paying jobs have never really been meant to be held by someone long-term or to support a family. That's what needs to be addressed. There needs to be some means in place to get these folks into a position to learn more skills and progress into a better paying job that will actually allow them to support a family.

 

[Hadron90]

do you want a properly functioning country?

Let's not be hyperbolic. America is functioning fine.

 

[Islam Imamate]

That's not an attack. Its an observation. Trump speaks almost exclusively in single syllables, and you still can't follow what he is saying.

Uh, last I checked tremendous wasn't a single syllable word.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

So you want me to provide you with an answer all the while completely ignoring my question? Cool.

You obviously feel that the type of job someone does should gauge the pay . . . correct? Which essential job/workers pay were you referring to? Checkers at a grocery store? Amazon warehouse employees?

Are any of these "essential businesses" offering extra benefits to employees? Like hazard pay, etc.?

Any American willing to put in their 40 hours a week is worthy of a wage that allows them to individually afford a basic means of living: an apartment, an economy car, enough food to eat and basic medical care. Without the need for government assistance.

There's no economic justification against a federally mandated livable wage (that allows exemption based on size/income of business).

No, to my knowledge store clerks, food service, auto parts stores, gas stations etc are not offering hazard.

Do you agree or disagree that these jobs and workers have been shown to be essential to keeping your life moving?

 

[moosaev]

But let's be real, many of these low skill, low paying jobs have never really been meant to be held by someone long-term or to support a family. That's what needs to be addressed. There needs to be some means in place to get these folks into a position to learn more skills and progress into a better paying job that will actually allow them to support a family.

Times change man, the huge numbers of well paying retail and manufacturing jobs have gone away. A lot of that is due to these large corporations pushing the US gov to craft global trade agreements that allow them to offshore jobs and cut their costs. Thanks to them moderate skill jobs have reduced dramatically and that extra money has gone into their pockets. Unless you somehow shit out millions of new medium skill jobs overnight the only viable solution is to improve the wages of the lower class. Keep in mind these corporations aren’t doing anyone favors by increasing wages, we’ve been giving them breaks and catering to them for decades. They OWE this to society. It’s as simple as that.

 

[spamking]

Any American willing to put in their 40 hours a week is worthy of a wage that allows them to individually afford a basic means of living: an apartment, an economy car, enough food to eat and basic medical care. Without the need for government assistance.

Yes and no . . . IMO it again totally depends on the job being performed. Some just pay more than others.

There's no economic justification against a federally mandated livable wage (that allows exemption based on size/income of business).

How do you plan to account for covering this livable wage (whatever that might be)? Will your livable wage be able to account for these additional costs?

No, to my knowledge store clerks, food service, auto parts stores, gas stations etc are not offering hazard.

Hazard pay, OT, time-and-a-half, etc. . . . either would work here IMO.

Do you agree or disagree that these jobs and workers have been shown to be essential to keeping your life moving?

I greatly appreciate the folks in the warehouses packing and shipping supplies . . . . they're essential today just like they were essential a year ago with keeping my life moving.

 

[milenss]

This article by George Packer is depressing, but has to be read by anybody who still loves this country. America as we know it is gone. Technical term for what we are is a “shithole country”.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/06/underlying-conditions/610261/

lol @ that.
If America is a shithole country that means that all countries are shitholes.
America is stronger than ever during the corona era.
With closed borders USA has an edge over the others which will only become more and more noticeble in time.
The problem is more an inside one - with lots of mayors who shouldn't be there. Overall, there is not a lot of Americanness on local level. It's like a lot of these guys are there just by accident.

 

[spamking]

Times change man, the huge numbers of well paying retail and manufacturing jobs have gone away. A lot of that is due to these large corporations pushing the US gov to craft global trade agreements that allow them to offshore jobs and cut their costs. Thanks to them moderate skill jobs have reduced dramatically and that extra money has gone into their pockets. Unless you somehow shit out millions of new medium skill jobs overnight the only viable solution is to improve the wages of the lower class. Keep in mind these corporations aren’t doing anyone favors by increasing wages, we’ve been giving them breaks and catering to them for decades. They OWE this to society. It’s as simple as that.

I agree that the corporations play a major role in making these changes. Hopefully this current situation is pointing a spotlight on the importance of bringing back a lot of the production and jobs to the US workforce.

 

[moosaev]

I agree that the corporations play a major role in making these changes. Hopefully this current situation is pointing a spotlight on the importance of bringing back a lot of the production and jobs to the US workforce.

In the meantime, we need to compel these corporations to pay their employees a livable wage. I hope you agree with that.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I agree that the corporations play a major role in making these changes. Hopefully this current situation is pointing a spotlight on the importance of bringing back a lot of the production and jobs to the US workforce.

I think this stuff is coming from a good place, but it's misguided. The reason repetitive manufacturing jobs have declined is that the labor isn't worth American wages. There's no way to change that and no good reason to try to. There's nothing inherent about those jobs that made them more valuable. They had better compensation than jobs that require equivalent skill because of high levels of unionization, which we should encourage for restaurant workers and other retail jobs now. And likewise for whatever the dominant form of low- or medium-skill labor takes in the future.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Yes and no . . . IMO it again totally depends on the job being performed. Some just pay more than others.

You know a lot of jobs that do require skills still pay poverty wages too right? Auto parts retailers like Auto Zone pay minimum wage despite needing automotive knowledge. Rental car companies that require sales and computer skills start at minimum wage.

How do you plan to account for covering this livable wage (whatever that might be)? Will your livable wage be able to account for these additional costs?

There are many studies showing the benefits if a livable wage. All you need to do is Google it. Here's one source: https://www.epi.org/publication/why-america-needs-a-15-minimum-wage/

Hazard pay, OT, time-and-a-half, etc. . . . either would work here IMO.

Well they aren't. And they won't because they don't have to. And they don't have to because people hold your view that the workers are unworthy.

I greatly appreciate the folks in the warehouses packing and shipping supplies . . . . they're essential today just like they were essential a year ago with keeping my life moving.

Five of the top ten employers in America are either retail stores of fast good.

Walmart
Amazon
Yum brands (kfc, pizza hut, taco bell)
Home Depot
Kroger

Source: https://www.backgroundchecks.com/community/Post/5836/Top-10-Largest-Employers-in-the-USA

Combined they employ about 4,485,900 people.


That's more than 1% of the American population just working for 5 companies . . . A vast majority of them are going to be minimum wage. And only 10% are teens, while a little under half have college education.

So 1% of Americans are worth them risking health and life for YOU, but you don't think they are worth more than $7.25 an hour? How very patriotic of you and your concern for your countrymen. At the end of the day the only reason people argue against it is out of wanting superiority. "I only make $X.xx so why do they deserve $Y.yy?"

 

[moosaev]

I think this stuff is coming from a good place, but it's misguided. The reason repetitive manufacturing jobs have declined is that the labor isn't worth American wages. There's no way to change that and no good reason to try to. There's nothing inherent about those jobs that made them more valuable. They had better compensation than jobs that require equivalent skill because of high levels of unionization, which we should encourage for restaurant workers and other retail jobs now. And likewise for whatever the dominant form of low- or medium-skill labor takes in the future.

Spot on, automation and robotics have largely made these jobs obsolete and that’s never gonna change, it would be like trying to bring back the horse & buggy. The focus should be on managing the transition to a new type of labor, and keeping everyone afloat in the meantime.

 

[Denter]

Yes but what? And how? I think the top short-term obstacle facing the nation now is the combination of a widely held "liberal media CT" on the right and the existence of an alternative-reality media sphere. That 1-2 punch means that reality never has to intrude on the kind of mass delusion so we have almost half the population trending toward complete barbarism. We can see it in the crisis. From Day 1, the administration's response was to treat the outbreak as a PR problem, and even now, when faced with what would appear to be concrete evidence of massive failure by the gov't, many people just write off the facts as some kind of liberal conspiracy. I've seen the attitude of "even if I don't know what it is, I'm sure there's some smart guy somewhere who can explain why this isn't happening."



I'm not commenting on the traitors themselves as much as on their successors, who still refuse to acknowledge the right of minorities or even liberals to participate in gov't.

Why is it important that the public 'believe' certain 'facts' or stories? The answer to this questions says more about it than the problem.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Why is it important that the public 'believe' certain 'facts' or stories? The answer to this questions says more about it than the problem.

Because we have democratic gov't. If the public has a lot of false beliefs, that's an obstacle to a reasonable response to problems that arise or good gov't more broadly, and also creates the opportunity for gov't corruption (if the public falsely believes that the gov't is not corrupt when it is). For example, if a big enough share of the public is convinced that human activity isn't causing climate change, that makes it less likely that we address the problem. Or note how austerity mania inhibited a proper response to the GFC (moreso in other countries, but still to our detriment in America).

 

[spamking]

I think this stuff is coming from a good place, but it's misguided. The reason repetitive manufacturing jobs have declined is that the labor isn't worth American wages. There's no way to change that and no good reason to try to. There's nothing inherent about those jobs that made them more valuable. They had better compensation than jobs that require equivalent skill because of high levels of unionization, which we should encourage for restaurant workers and other retail jobs now. And likewise for whatever the dominant form of low- or medium-skill labor takes in the future.

Sure . . . there are jobs where this would apply, but there are also some smaller businesses that could still utilize a new labor force and potentially increase our manufacturing and ability to pay a better wage.

I mean if we're going to complain about how much a shift supervisor working at McDonald's makes and then also give less consideration to the possibility that they could move over to a different employer and do the same type of job while making more money why be concerned about implementing any of the changes at all?

 

[Jack V Savage]

Sure . . . there are jobs where this would apply, but there are also some smaller businesses that could still utilize a new labor force and potentially increase our manufacturing and ability to pay a better wage.

I guess anything's possible, but note that we were heading toward full employment before Trump fucked everything up. Not seeing the argument for intervening in markets to raise prices to indirectly try to help a small subset of workers get slightly above-minimum-wage jobs. Wouldn't it be easier, cheaper, and more moral to just directly tax consumers and give money to some low-wage workers, if that's your thing?

I mean if we're going to complain about how much a shift supervisor working at McDonald's makes and then also give less consideration to the possibility that they could move over to a different employer and do the same type of job while making more money why be concerned about implementing any of the changes at all?

I don't get the question. I don't think there's any reason to expect that factory jobs that have left would pay better than shift supervisors at McDonald's make unless they're unionized, and so a better solution than cronyism that might indirectly help some workers would be to unionize the McDonald's workers.

 

[spamking]

You know a lot of jobs that do require skills still pay poverty wages too right? Auto parts retailers like Auto Zone pay minimum wage despite needing automotive knowledge. Rental car companies that require sales and computer skills start at minimum wage.

There is some level of skill required for every job . . . I worked in retail as a Freshman in college almost 30 years ago. I had absolutely no sales skills at all . . . all I needed to know how to do was look up catalog orders and be able to go to the store room to find them. I worked with two older ladies who had been with JCPenney for decades. I have no clue what they made. Right after I graduated college I worked for a short time at a hardware store. I helped folks complete purchases and would consider that very similar to what someone at Autozone would possibly do as a counter employee/checker. I didn't need to be a licensed contractor or have a significant amount of construction knowledge to check folks out or look up a part or other information that the customer needed.

There are many studies showing the benefits if a livable wage. All you need to do is Google it. Here's one source: https://www.epi.org/publication/why-america-needs-a-15-minimum-wage/

Thanks . . . but that wasn't really what I asked about.

Well they aren't. And they won't because they don't have to. And they don't have to because people hold your view that the workers are unworthy.

I never said the workers were unworthy . . . but thanks for assuming you know the full extent of my view on this . . .

Five of the top ten employers in America are either retail stores of fast good.

Walmart
Amazon
Yum brands (kfc, pizza hut, taco bell)
Home Depot
Kroger

Source: https://www.backgroundchecks.com/community/Post/5836/Top-10-Largest-Employers-in-the-USA

Combined they employ about 4,485,900 people.

That's more than 1% of the American population just working for 5 companies . . . A vast majority of them are going to be minimum wage. And only 10% are teens, while a little under half have college education.

Average hourly pay at Walmart is $13 or so. Home Depot is a little over $12. Taco Bell is just under $10. Pizza Hut is just under $9 and KFC is just over $9. Kroger is just over $10.

UPS is in your top 10 and has an average hourly wage of almost $17 . . . with almost as many employees as McDonalds. FedEx is just ahead of UPS in the number of employees and pays an average salary of $72k.

Different jobs require different skills and pays accordingly . . .

So 1% of Americans are worth them risking health and life for YOU, but you don't think they are worth more than $7.25 an hour?

Well . . . thanks for making yet another assumption and throwing out more lies. I never said they weren't worth more pay. Even though all of the folks you seem to be concerned about are making more than that amount on average.

How very patriotic of you and your concern for your countrymen. At the end of the day the only reason people argue against it is out of wanting superiority. "I only make $X.xx so why do they deserve $Y.yy?"

Stop projecting your crap on to me please . . . you have nothing I have posted on here to base this crap statement on.

Again . . . thanks for assuming things . . . if you can't discuss this stuff without throwing crap against the wall in an attempt to downgrade what I've said and twist it to try and make your views superior then just move on . . . you haven't answered much of what I've asked and have continually insulted me and fabricated stuff to try and prove some imaginary point or speak against something I'm not saying.