Social The Dog Training World Debate: Force Free vs Traditional Methods

[GergreG]

I think I've hit my dog once, or maybe I kicked it up the arse and pushed it outside the house as punishment. He was less than six months old and nipped my young daughter in the face because she put her face in his face. I told her to never ever do that again and I kicked him up the arse to help him understand what is and isn't acceptable and to establish the pecking order.

now he is the best trained and most loved and loving dog you will ever meet and that's coming from friends of mine who have met him. He's a wolfhound and it would be irresponsible of me to have not trained him to control himself. I've never had to physically punish him since that day. I have no regrets and don't give a fuck what anybody says or thinks. If a stranger or friend came to my door I know that dog will listen to and obey me. If me or my family is threatened he will defend us.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Having worked with hundreds of dogs, I at least can respond to this with some confidence.

- hitting a dog is never useful
- “corrections” don’t have to be “negative”
- physical energy(posture and confidence) are very important
- consistent positive reinforcement is key

It’s not that hard to train a dog. You just have to put in the work

 

[Zeke's Chaingun]

Having worked with hundreds of dogs, I at least can respond to this with some confidence.

- hitting a dog is never useful

I would say that "hitting" needs to be defined. I don't trust anyone's definition of "hitting" until I know what they mean. They may not mean the same thing that I mean. Secondly, while STRIKING a dog may not be the best way to go about things, I wouldn't say that it is "never useful". If you're getting attacked - for instance - striking a dog can certainly be useful.

- “corrections” don’t have to be “negative”

Depends upon what you mean by "don't have to be". You can certainly always TRY positive corrections (redirection), but the fact is that in hard cases this does not resolve the issue with the dog. If you have a redzone aggressive dog that bites, you're not going to fix that problem with treats and affection. "Negative" corrections (done correctly) ARE necessary to fix these issues. If that weren't the case we'd actually be able to see these hard cases fixed by positive reinforcement/redirection. Unfortunately, the PP/FF people have yet to demonstrate that their methods work in these cases, whereas the traditional trainers demonstrate their methods work all of the time.

- physical energy(posture and confidence) are very important
- consistent positive reinforcement is key

It’s not that hard to train a dog. You just have to put in the work

I agree with this, almost 100%. My only caveat would be that "positive reinforcement is key, in most cases"

 

[Rob Battisti]

I would say that "hitting" needs to be defined. I don't trust anyone's definition of "hitting" until I know what they mean. They may not mean the same thing that I mean. Secondly, while STRIKING a dog may not be the best way to go about things, I wouldn't say that it is "never useful". If you're getting attacked - for instance - striking a dog can certainly be useful.

Well, yeah but we’re talking about training not defending yourself.

I find “touch” to be useful. A knee pressed into the side(firm but not hurtful). A slip knot lease is vital. Not to hurt, but to control.

You don’t need to hit a dog to train it.

Depends upon what you mean by "don't have to be". You can certainly always TRY positive corrections (redirection), but the fact is that in hard cases this does not resolve the issue with the dog. If you have a redzone aggressive dog that bites, you're not going to fix that problem with treats and affection. "Negative" corrections (done correctly) ARE necessary to fix these issues. If that weren't the case we'd actually be able to see these hard cases fixed by positive reinforcement/redirection. Unfortunately, the PP/FF people have yet to demonstrate that their methods work in these cases, whereas the traditional trainers demonstrate their methods work all of the time.

Negative reinforcement is what I mean. You reward good behavior and you get more of it.

People are idiots if they think if a dog pees in the house, you bring the dog to the urine and then beat it or berate it.

I’ve trained extremely aggressive dogs before. You need calm confident energy and assertiveness.

What is meant by “traditional trainers”?

 

[Zeke's Chaingun]

Well, yeah but we’re talking about training not defending yourself.

I find “touch” to be useful. A knee pressed into the side(firm but not hurtful). A slip knot lease is vital. Not to hurt, but to control.

You don’t need to hit a dog to train it.

Yes, and this is exactly my point. The "touch" is often considered to be "hitting" by PP/FF advocates. Cesar Millan was blasted for his heel touch correction method.

See here:



What Cesar is doing is using the heel touch to snap the dog's brain out of the state of mind it has in that moment. For this dog, it was a bit excited and invasive with it's jumping. Cesar's heel touch to it's side didn't cause the dog to yelp in pain, it just snapped the dog out of that state of mind, which then allows you to start with training the dog on behavior now that it's excitement has been snapped out of it's brain.

This clip MIGHT be a situation where you can say that a treat redirection would work too, and I will grant that it may. However, I don't believe his heel touch correction is harming the dog nor putting it into a fearful state of mind. Dogs correct other dogs invasive and overly excited behavior with much worse corrections, using their teeth. Dogs understand this kind of communication.

Negative reinforcement is what I mean. You reward good behavior and you get more of it.

People are idiots if they think if a dog pees in the house, you bring the dog to the urine and then beat it or berate it.

I’ve trained extremely aggressive dogs before. You need calm confident energy and assertiveness.

I agree that rewarding good behavior tends to generate more of that behavior. I agree that beating a dog or yelling at it for peeing in the house is useless, and only serves to make the dog cower and fear you. It doesn't understand what you're upset about. Also, I agree that calm confident and assertive energy is paramount.

I would only add that properly timed/used leash correction with calm assertive leadership is required to fix redzone aggressive cases. Many FF/PP advocates would say that leash correcting is "negative training" and is immoral. That idea is not only wrong, but dangerous and can cost dogs their lives and could lead to people being harmed.

What is meant by “traditional trainers”?

Traditional trainers use both positive and negative reinforcement in their training methods. Purely Positive trainers refuse to use any negative reinforcement and consider it to be animal abuse to such a degree that they're justified in destroying your reputation and business,

 

[Rob Battisti]

Yes, and this is exactly my point. The "touch" is often considered to be "hitting" by PP/FF advocates. Cesar Millan was blasted for his heel touch correction method.

See here:



What Cesar is doing is using the heel touch to snap the dog's brain out of the state of mind it has in that moment. For this dog, it was a bit excited and invasive with it's jumping. Cesar's heel touch to it's side didn't cause the dog to yelp in pain, it just snapped the dog out of that state of mind, which then allows you to start with training the dog on behavior now that it's excitement has been snapped out of it's brain.

This clip MIGHT be a situation where you can say that a treat redirection would work too, and I will grant that it may. However, I don't believe his heel touch correction is harming the dog nor putting it into a fearful state of mind. Dog's correct other dog's invasive and overly excited behavior with much worse corrections, using their teeth. Dogs understand this kind of communication.



I agree that rewarding good behavior tends to generate more of that behavior. I agree that beating a dog or yelling at it for peeing in the house is useless, and only serves to make the dog cower and fear you. It doesn't understand what you're upset about. Also, I agree that calm confident and assertive energy is paramount.

I would only add that properly timed/used leash correction with calm assertive leadership is required to fix redzone aggressive cases. Many FF/PP advocates would say that leash correcting is "negative training" and is immoral. That idea is not only wrong, but dangerous and can cost dogs their lives and could lead to people being harmed.



Traditional trainers use both positive and negative reinforcement in their training methods. Purely Positive trainers refuse to use any negative reinforcement and consider it to be animal abuse to such a degree that they're justified in destroying your reputation and business,

Oh yeah then we’re in lockstep agreement.

You can’t positive your way with treats with an aggressive German Shepard.

Leash and touch training is vital in most cases. I have never choked a dog with a leash but I sure as hell use it as a tool to get the dog to calm down and listen.

I really like Zenergy a lot with their approach and generally like Cesar too. Sometimes he’s a little out there, but the proof is in the pudding.

 

[Pliny Pete]

Only one way to properly train a dog

 

[Municipal Waste]

While training my puppy I carry a spray bottle with me. Due to my sherdogesque height it get's old bending down to touch correct my dog. A little spray behind the ears, command, after obeying he gets a nice treat and positive verbal confirmation. Of course I try to work around it by using a very minor leash correction prior or giving the command and quickly rewarding for correct behavior. It helps a lot and could be called negative reinforcement by some people, at least I sometimes get comments from other dog owners.... usually when I spray their untrained asshole dog in the face for stalking my good boi.

 

[bandicoot]

Only one way to properly train a dog

You know you've seen this movie too many times when you can literally hear Pops saying that line in your head as you read it.

 

[RoastBeast]

Force free vs. traditional dog trainers. The new Monday night wars.

 

[bandicoot]

Force free vs. traditional dog trainers. The new Monday night wars.

 

[Renard]

"Negative training" isn't really negative. In technical terms the only form of conditioning that's truly negative is positive punishment. Positive = adding something unpleasant, punishment = to reduce a behaviour. So for example corporeal punishment is positive punishment because something unpleasant is added to reduce a behaviour. That form of conditioning is considered very weak and ineffective. However you can also have something like negative punishment, negative (remove something pleasant) punishment (to reduce a behaviour). This would be for example timing out a dog after improper behaviour with other dogs. Socializing is the reward and it's being temporarily removed (like 5 mins) to reduce the improper behaviour. This kind of conditioning is very effective and it's not harmful at all despite being called "negative."

It sounds like maybe the "positive trainers" are basically only using reinforcement (increase the frequency of a behaviour) in either positive or negative form, and forgoing use of negative punishment altogether. So if a behaviour needs to be reduced, they don't even try to reduce it. It's a bit confusing because they don't use proper terminology at all.

 

[PBAC]

Just be a competent owner. Doggy will respect you if you respect doggy.

 

[jeff7b9]

And for that, you would raise the ire of the Purely Positive/Force Free advocates. If you had a business, they'd flood your Yelp page with awful reviews. They'd probably get people to protest you outside your business. This is what they do to the traditional dog trainers, particularly those with a large audience.

It's a cult, a religion.

Being interested in dog training and dog behavior, I signed up for a message board like this for dog training. I was hoping to bounce ideas and hear from others on dog training. I didn't last a single day. When someone posted a story about the issues with their dog, like others I posted my thoughts on how to resolve the situation. I was then responded to by multiple people telling me that my "archaic" and "abusive" methods aren't allowed here and they locked my ability to respond in that thread. This is how pervasive and religious they are.

Always fun having an exchange of ideas with those lovely little delicate flowers that need to immediately silence any different perspectives.