Economy The Capitalism Crumble

[filthybliss]

Name a democratic capitalist nation which has accomplished this or better in any 25 year period.

Wait, you actually think Russia is socialist? It’s literally capitalist state ran by a KGB mob.

It’s a failed country by all metrics for the potential that it had. If you want to use a better example, use China atleast.

 

[aerius]

I'm not actually going to type a long argument about the general principles of this argument, but I will point out that under Putin, Russia allows market activity, private businesses, and foreign investment to operate—but the state retains tight control over strategic sectors, key industries, and regulatory power. The result is a hybrid system: a state-capitalist or “managed market” economy, where markets exist but the government and oligarchs play a dominant role.

So they already have market forces at work. If you are thinking they are flourishing without a democracy, you need to take a closer look at Russia that goes beyond numbers you saw on Tik Tok or wherever you got that.

So your response is the No True Scotsman fallacy. Concession accepted.

 

[AWilder]

This has been on my mind for a long time. As indoctrinees into the religion of capitalism we are always assured this is THE most efficient and most prosperous economic model. When I was a kid and the US still had some pride in our manufacturing, we were even assured that the great American Corporation was the Savior of our well-being, so much so that a President based his entire economic policy on giving them tax breaks, massive subsidies, the ability to pursue cheap labor overseas, we were told to just give these people all our money and they would be generous enough to trickle-down enough of it to make us whole (but not TOO whole, we dont want to spoil ourselves).

I moved to Vegas about a year after joining this forum. In pursuing my career I ended up in a lot of places that were inaccessible to the version of myself that was in Florida. One of my favorite early experiences was being backstage with my stablemate and former 130lb Title Holder Sharif Bogere as he fought on an ESPN card. The event was poppin', we got comped at the buffet, staff was great. This was held at the Buffalo Bill's Star Arena in Primm, Nevada:



This is Primm now:



Since moving here Ive always heard that Vegas is a good barometer for what's going on in ths Country economically over all, because we depend largely on people.having disposable income. We depend on consumer confidence. When I got here cost of living was low and pay was high, because the Casinos catered to locals and middle-class families. Deals were a-plenty. Locals got half off show prices, and NEVER charged for parking. Now it seems cost of living is higher and pay has stagnated, so what's going on with the corporations, with the Casinos who can essentially do whatever they want here?



Like every great American corporation, combinations of greed, stupidity, and stubbornness are contributing to their downfalls on real time. They aimed at the rich, neglected the people who built the town and kept it alive through multiple economic crashes, and are now suffering the consequences. Not to mention a Government not-so-friendly to international business (I'm experiencing this in my own industry, many international fighters are going to train in Mexico as opposed to coming here) because its both easier AND cheaper.

Here it's going like this:

- rooms are more expensive AND smaller
- service is colder
- food and drinks are triple-priced
- little to no comps
- payouts are less frequent
- layoffs are high, and nonsensical layoffs like long-term executive chefs
- one of the highest unemployment rates in the US
- homelessness increasing
- grosheries (as per JD Vance) high
- gas trended up recently

All that said yes we are more fortunate than say, a different Country currently under economic embargo. However give the amount of economic decimation that is now more highly visible because of YouTube, there is no denying that there is something inherently wrong with capitalism. And its not "crony capitalism"...if you didnt account for cronyism in a system where money has always influenced elections then guy failed to understand capitalism from the beginning.



You wanna live here?

ive lived in vegas 2 different times, once as a kid 3-6th grade and i turned 21 there with the USAF. it's such a weird city. When i was a kid thats when they built the big pink dome at circus circus and MGM had an amsument park. They were trying to draw in families at the time. big flop basically. the MGM amusement park only lasted a few years iirc. As an adult it was crazy. People got stationed there, bought a house, and 18-24 months later their house doubled in value. They were building like crazy and californians were investing buying up homes sight unseen and renting them out. Then the crash happened and we had neighborhoods with virtually 100% renters and the owners had stopped paying the mortgage and crazy situations like that. Housing went stupid cheap for a few years after that.
Vegas is just a crazy place.

 

[AWilder]

Name a democratic capitalist nation which has accomplished this or better in any 25 year period.

lol

 

[Darkavius]

Agreed. Perhaps also taking away tax exemption from organizations designated as religion-based non profits who are clearly profiting in the millions.

Amon, don't get me started. I want to see tax exemptions go away all together. People are highly against this idea but I think it works because if you want to give then give from your own heart, not to lower your taxes. If I remember correctly the NFL itself was a tax exempt for many years which makes no sense. I know this is not nice to say but there are just some organizations now that are non-profit with tax exempt status that is now more about raising money than the main goal such as the American Cancer Society. Makes no sense to have a non-profit with a CEO making $1 million or more a year.

Anyone will reduces Vegas down to a single metric is missing the point entirely. It's not merely about sports gambling. The Corporations made a distinct effort to fleece regulars and locals, as well as cut the things that made Vegas Vegas in every facet. My wife was telling me about a French restaurant in a Casino who laid off their 30-year executive Chef. The entire Health Department was shocked because this Chef was very very good and pleasant to deal with. So what's the implication? They hired a lesser experienced Chef who will work more hours for less pay. Their food quality and even regulatory compliance is about to tank.

@TeTe will appreciate this, an AI voice edplaining to us how Vegas became too cold and robotic:



The greed and gouging are calculated decisions that permeated every aspect of what Vegas was. They thought they could fool people, it didnt work. Because it never does:

I watched both videos and I don't live anywhere near Nevada but I was wondering why is there not a labor law in Nevada that states for other than slots, video poker and sports gambling all casino games must be ran by a live human who works at the casino? Those computer related table games such as where poker players sit around a giant screen sucks.

I also wonder should there be commissions and agencies for each state to research and punish price gougers? There are laws on the books for price gouging in many states but they are often never enforced. Paying $9 for a Coke is silly and the people who set those prices should face some discipline.

 

[ricc505]

I'm not a fan of vegas. I'll never go back since I don't drink anymore. It's foolish to build almost your entire existence in a inhospitable environment on other people's disposable income. Gambling and destination tourism sounds to be a dieing fad

 

[Zazen]

Besides these issues anyone else seriously concerned about other countries grabbing all of our top talent? This shutdown has caused many experts to get fired or leave their positions. We’re fucked from every angle. If there is indeed a new administration we need more than economic reform. There’s going to be a lot of people that need to be jailed. Russel Vought was voted in after it was known he wanted to retire all government employees by “traumatizing” them. It’s unbelievable how weak our guardrails are. I guess my point is I feel sorry for the people that are tasked with cleaning this all up.

 

[joy2day]

So your response is the No True Scotsman fallacy. Concession accepted.

ROFL the premise of your argument isn't even true, Russia is capitalistic; do you have trouble understanding the basics?

If you want to ask if other countries have made such progress (even though the question makes no sense), yes, way more. China took 100s of millions out extreme poverty when they went to a market economy. It's not hard.

The whole premise is stupid BTW- Russia is not a model for doing well. You are a victim of internet falsehoods.

 

[aerius]

ROFL the premise of your argument isn't even true, Russia is capitalistic; do you have trouble understanding the basics?

If you want to ask if other countries have made such progress (even though the question makes no sense), yes, way more. China took 100s of millions out extreme poverty when they went to a market economy. It's not hard.

The whole premise is stupid BTW- Russia is not a model for doing well. You are a victim of internet falsehoods.

So when asked to name a democratic AND capitalist nation which has done as well or better than Russia in a 25 year span, your example is a communist nation running a hybrid economy.

 

[TeTe]

According to the Libertarians and now even more so the corporatist Republicans, checking capitalism means you're a full-on Commie.

Of course that's absurd, but it's a flaw baked into the idea of what capitalism IS. At its foundation, the notion of one person or entity owning resources like oil and water is pretty dumb. It mandates heirarchy. Capitalists have always just eliminated working class people who wanted that voice, one way or another. I mean, they paid a Court to declare that money is speech and a corporation is a human being lol

Well I consider myself more libertarian than anything but I'm not anti-consumer protection. I think if a company is being deceptive in it's practices, harming consumers with it's products, monopolizing an industry or breaking any other laws they should be held accountable. Because at the end of the day I believe in protecting individuals; protecting their civil liberties and individual rights as consumers. Not protecting corporations or groups.

Outside of that, I think it's up to the consumer to vote with their wallets. Part of that is choosing not to spend money certain places or on certain things. I'd say with their voting too, but sadly I think it's a lost cause regardless of who you vote for these days. Just just gotta hope the clowns that are in there and the courts will uphold the laws we have.

 

[Darkavius]

Besides these issues anyone else seriously concerned about other countries grabbing all of our top talent? This shutdown has caused many experts to get fired or leave their positions. We’re fucked from every angle. If there is indeed a new administration we need more than economic reform. There’s going to be a lot of people that need to be jailed. Russel Vought was voted in after it was known he wanted to retire all government employees by “traumatizing” them. It’s unbelievable how weak our guardrails are. I guess my point is I feel sorry for the people that are tasked with cleaning this all up.

I think we are going to have to start importing talent again for sure if we want the system to get better. However, I would also argue that America needs to actually get serious about developing home grown talent at all ages. If top talent is going elsewhere then you have to learn how to build internally. I think one way to do this is there has to be a force towards businesses paying market price for labor.

Say a business wants to hire someone. Two conditions must be met before you can hire anyone overseas by Visa or offshore. One, you have to prove that you could not find anyone who can fill that position. Two, you have to pay American market prices no matter if you the person is here or overseas.

 

[Rob Battisti]

This has been on my mind for a long time. As indoctrinees into the religion of capitalism we are always assured this is THE most efficient and most prosperous economic model. When I was a kid and the US still had some pride in our manufacturing, we were even assured that the great American Corporation was the Savior of our well-being, so much so that a President based his entire economic policy on giving them tax breaks, massive subsidies, the ability to pursue cheap labor overseas, we were told to just give these people all our money and they would be generous enough to trickle-down enough of it to make us whole (but not TOO whole, we dont want to spoil ourselves).

I moved to Vegas about a year after joining this forum. In pursuing my career I ended up in a lot of places that were inaccessible to the version of myself that was in Florida. One of my favorite early experiences was being backstage with my stablemate and former 130lb Title Holder Sharif Bogere as he fought on an ESPN card. The event was poppin', we got comped at the buffet, staff was great. This was held at the Buffalo Bill's Star Arena in Primm, Nevada:



This is Primm now:



Since moving here Ive always heard that Vegas is a good barometer for what's going on in ths Country economically over all, because we depend largely on people.having disposable income. We depend on consumer confidence. When I got here cost of living was low and pay was high, because the Casinos catered to locals and middle-class families. Deals were a-plenty. Locals got half off show prices, and NEVER charged for parking. Now it seems cost of living is higher and pay has stagnated, so what's going on with the corporations, with the Casinos who can essentially do whatever they want here?



Like every great American corporation, combinations of greed, stupidity, and stubbornness are contributing to their downfalls on real time. They aimed at the rich, neglected the people who built the town and kept it alive through multiple economic crashes, and are now suffering the consequences. Not to mention a Government not-so-friendly to international business (I'm experiencing this in my own industry, many international fighters are going to train in Mexico as opposed to coming here) because its both easier AND cheaper.

Here it's going like this:

- rooms are more expensive AND smaller
- service is colder
- food and drinks are triple-priced
- little to no comps
- payouts are less frequent
- layoffs are high, and nonsensical layoffs like long-term executive chefs
- one of the highest unemployment rates in the US
- homelessness increasing
- grosheries (as per JD Vance) high
- gas trended up recently

All that said yes we are more fortunate than say, a different Country currently under economic embargo. However give the amount of economic decimation that is now more highly visible because of YouTube, there is no denying that there is something inherently wrong with capitalism. And its not "crony capitalism"...if you didnt account for cronyism in a system where money has always influenced elections then guy failed to understand capitalism from the beginning.



You wanna live here?

Things are getting worse. That’s a fact.

 

[Sinister]

Well I consider myself more libertarian than anything but I'm not anti-consumer protection. I think if a company is being deceptive in it's practices, harming consumers with it's products, monopolizing an industry or breaking any other laws they should be held accountable. Because at the end of the day I believe in protecting individuals; protecting their civil liberties and individual rights as consumers. Not protecting corporations or groups.

Outside of that, I think it's up to the consumer to vote with their wallets. Part of that is choosing not to spend money certain places or on certain things. I'd say with their voting too, but sadly I think it's a lost cause regardless of who you vote for these days. Just just gotta hope the clowns that are in there and the courts will uphold the laws we have.

Individual rights, but what about collective rights? The biggest thing between people like me and the "free market" zealots is encouragement of collective bargaining.

 

[Sinister]

Detail the economic systems that have functioned well without capitalism, and the forms of government that have succeeded better than democracy.

This is like asking me for something comparable to the efficiency of Santa Claus. First of all what metric are we measuring capitalism by? How often socialist policies have had to bail out capitalists WITHIN capitalist systems? And often un-democratically? Did we get a ballot measure on bailing out the big banks? Did our politicians even CONSIDER paying off everyone's mortgages and covering the accounts of regular people while convicting and imprisoning the frauds? Nope.



They were content to make millions homeless, cost people their pensions and 401k's, while the capitalists paid themselves bonuses with our money and no one went to jail. Is that the success you're referring to? And I wonder why these colossal blunders are NEVER attributed to capitalism as a system. We are indoctrinated. So we make excuses for every atrocity and massive systemic failure capitalism produces.

And how about those socialist and communist countries? Well, they get attacked by Imperialists when they don't abide by capitalism. China even had to create their hybrid economy to keep from being economically embargoed when they had much less influence in the geopolitical theater. Our hegemony has made it perfectly clear what we demand of our allies. Austerity or War.

 

[HOLA]

I fucked the Powder Gangers up bigly in Primm in Fallout New Vegas.

 

[Sinister]

I don't understand why we can't take certain ideas from certain ideologies and make it work. We already have socialism in this country anyway, it's just corporate ie bank bailouts, airline bailouts, subsidies for Elon, etc etc. When it comes to providing social services for the citizens that are actually paying their share of taxes however, "conservatives" start crying about communism and China lol. We need to start thinking beyond labels because the reality of life is not as simple as some all encompassing label. imo.

We did. That's what FDR did. He was a Pragmatist, so he was willing to look outside of his own ideological box to piecemeal things to hopefully make them work better.

And he was lambasted as a Communist for it despite winning 4 terms. Made the GOP so mad that they demanded term limits, until now. And like I said in another thread the fascists growing under the Republican side of the coin look at FDR as a model for their authoritarian fiefdom they want. Except that's a perversion of what he did. I dont even agree with all of the public investments he did, but the order of the day was Pragmatism.

 

[Sinister]

What is the alternative? Socialism?

Every other socialist experiment has transformed into a Vanguard Party controlling the means of production and treating the working class as too dim to know what is best for themselves.

I think a hybrid economy where healthcare, childcare, etc. are nationalized and the general market remains is ideal.

Dude we are currently ruled by a class of capitalists who think we are too dumb to understand how to spend our own money, so they're chopping social safety nets and giving $20 billion to an idiot who crashed a foreign economy who claims he can talk to his dog.

Does it matter what label the stupidity has on it?

I would agree that a mixed economy is the best way to go. I dont Profess to know how to make an entire Country better, but I do think looking at other places that did exactly that and have excellent metrics would be a good start. And not through the lense of racism, because as always someone will claim that whichever Country accomplished this did so because there arent many black or Latino people as opposed to looking at how much geopolitical bullsh*t that Country has had to deal with.

 

[LeonardoBjj]

Our country is a failed capitalist society is why. Croney capitalism and oligopolies have run out of control.

Capitalism is not a perfect model and anyone who’s taken a course in macroeconomics should know that. There are known problems that the invisible hand can’t fix. I do think that it is the best model but the idea that it can work without regulation and that society won’t need some socialist policies is childishly naive

- America looks like they got capitalism and uped to 100, like why cant you guys have middle-road of things? As you said, you learn that caopitalism can only work walking side by side with a little socialism. If i dont pay my medical bills, my name will get put on a list, of people that cant get good credit, for a couple of years, but i wont lose my own house to pay for it.

I know that usualy big business get some lenience to pay their divides, because they provide society with jobs. But why the average american cant have that? My mom gets he medicaments and health asistence paid by the goverment, here in SC isnt a bad ofered health work, but if a politician can get everything paid by the goverment, why my mom cant? I remember getting shocked that Tito Ortiz, the biggest UFC star in the 00'sm sued the UFC to pay his back surgery, just to discovery years late, that a back surgery can cost 400,000 dolars in america. I've read someone say they paid 10,000 for e knee surgery. Dude i can get that for free here. Or pay a popular health plan and get for less than 1000 R$(250 dollars)

I mentioned to @Sinister months ago, i watched a movie, were a security guard was kicked out of the firm he worked for more than 15 years, without receiving any compesation for his time, Sinister said that can happen in US for real. You guys doenst have work rights. A business is nothing without people, and al that money that is "given" to a worker, always comes back to the goverment. It's more like a loan.

 

[HOLA]

They have a pretty good model with Cuba. During prohibition the casinos and clubs were really only the destination of the wealthy. By the 1950's it was much more accessible to the middle class, and the casinos and clubs were awash with cash. The Cuban Revolution helped paved the way to make Las Vegas more popular. Before the revolution, Cuba was seen as a better and more uninhibited destination.

 

[LeonardoBjj]

I would argue that many of the guys at the very top have fuck it money and once they get that they don't really care what happens to the rest. The best example of this in recent history are venture capitalists. It does not catch them off guard. They know it's coming but many of them likely think like hedge funds when they buy corporations they know are failing and losing business, but they buy in anyway to take what profit is left and move on.

I'm not sure if this is a feasible solution but would one way to prevent things like this be to have a law on the books that states that if you are a business or a subsidiary of a business that has at least $1 million in profit each of the past 2 years you are not eligible for any government funds, support or taxes.

- This is true. Even to us, that's why some people that get rich still hang with people they've know since they were poor(athletes usualy do that). You can see that litle concept in Batman Begins, were a rich Bruce doesnt knew how the life was outside of his marble walls, That's why politicians get indiferent to us, when they climb the ladder, if they're a little councilor in their small neighborn, they have the people best interest usually, but when they grow up, climb the lader and became congressman, they usually move to a bigger, better house, they start to work to people they've never met, so they dont care. I think is just human nature.