Economy The Capitalism Crumble

[Sinister]

Well......Capitalism has taken us a long long way that's for sure. But a look at our oceans or the many thousands of dumps all over the planet strongly indicate that profit motivations and maximum resource utility do not always align. In fact profit and resource utility can be in direct conflict at times.

Even with the large # of people on the planet now, it's become patently obvious that if we used our resources at maximum utility, there would be very little scarcity. And this is BEFORE we crack the energy limitations we currently have. Eventually we will evolve to a non-monetary post scarcity resource based economy.

I think we might have been able to get here without forced labor. I know the white supremacists dont think so, but I dont see a logical reason the wealth needed to be THAT concentrated at the top

 

[Darkavius]

Back to Vegas as the thread started on. Given the situation Vegas is in is there an industry the city could switch to that could change their fate economically? Given that many parts of Nevada have legal prostitution I am surprised it is not a mega hub for pron productions and the pron industry as a whole.

Why not diversify more on the gaming front? Vegas was always a big gaming capital but instead of relying on casino games put more of a focus on other games and bring back games you rarely hear about such as backgammon. I mean they host Evo every year which is the biggest fighting game tournament of the year in July or August.

 

[Mock Artwork]

Sort of. Some versions of heirarchies appear, however they're also upset all the time. And humans found out we were entirely wrong about the social structure of wolves, something men virally based our personas off of. I remember watching a documentary about orangutans and there was one female who had been raised by humans and returned to the wild. She was almost autistic to them. She tended to isolate, didnt understand them, expected to be fed, and did weird sh*t like made a makeshift bed to sleep on the ground because she always slept in a crib. Of course, she was picked on..

Now according to human understanding ofnheirarchy she is essentially useless and should be killed or rejected. She literally contributed nothing to the troop, or whatever the larger group is called. She was dead weight. A corporate seminar video would show her rejection as a reason for executives to fore workers lol.

But that's not what happened. The "alpha" orangutan started beating up the ones that picked on her, and leaving food for her near her bedding. He accepted her differences, defended them, and helped her. Theoretically that could have gotten him killed.

I see temporary heirarchies as merely a tool to get things done. For right now that guy is the best at what we need to do, or that woman is. Follow them. Only those who want my money and time would ever try to convince me that my natural place is beneath them.

You seem to be on one, and I appreciate that. I'll have to take these responses as they come.

I think, if anything, you have a good heart but are generalizing a lot. Hierarchies appear almost everywhere. It's actually built into genetics. You have recessive and dominant alleles. That's one over the other. You may only have the eye color you do because of a hierarchies. Further, that dominant allele will demonstrate itself even when paired with another recessive allele. I hope you see the point I'm making here. It's not that they should or shouldn't exist, they just do.

I'm not advocating for anything, here. I'm as upset at the model we have today as any other levelheaded individual. You are operating out of a need to criticize, and when that's your need that will always be your result. I will mention it in another comment, but you move the goalposts in equating imperialism with capitalism as a hard tether. One is the tool, the other is the ideal.

Lastly, you deal with hierarchies all the time that you willingly accept. You accept it in representative democracy which you participate in and endorse. Even though, that's not really anything but accepting a hierarchy. If we had true democracy, you would vote in referendums and you would be doing a lot of it. Now, I know you won't apply it to Trump (I respect that), but the system is based on electing leaders to make those decisions for you at the price of your productivity.

 

[Sinister]

Back to Vegas as the thread started on. Given the situation Vegas is in is there an industry the city could switch to that could change their fate economically? Given that many parts of Nevada have legal prostitution I am surprised it is not a mega hub for pron productions and the pron industry as a whole.

Why not diversify more on the gaming front? Vegas was always a big gaming capital but instead of relying on casino games put more of a focus on other games and bring back games you rarely hear about such as backgammon. I mean they host Evo every year which is the biggest fighting game tournament of the year in July or August.

We definitely need to think outside the box. Gaming is good. I mean we seem to be trying to Jake ourselves a hub of Pro Sports, but we're just buying trash Oakland doesn't want anymore lol. Despite our schools being pretty horrible, we have a magnificent program for Pre-K. UNLV is still pretty strong. But this is just me throwing spaghetti at the wall. Im not entirely sure what we should do altogether but the answer quite obviously isnt trusting the corporations. I mean they COULD buy us a few more decades by restoring the deals and tailoring their experiences to the working class again. And they're kinda sorta starting to, but its not enough.

This problem reminds me of another colossal blunder of capitalism that, or course, capitalism zealots will call a success. Which is the shopping malls. Anyone my age or older has mall experienced burned into their brains and I even remember when communities opposed them. Entire local economies were built around these things. And even before Amazon blew up their influence was waning. They had started to remove a lot of the things like arcades and sh*t that made them fun, they reduced the mall experience to ONLY commerce. If you had no money, there was literally no reason to go. As a kid I could spend a whole day in a mall by myself with $10. And now?



Theres thousands of these things just as there are giant abandoned schools, abandoned downtowns, etc. Vegas has a few malls that actually operate and look like traditional alive malls because someone was smart enough to use the space wisely and place destination experiences in them, like fun centers for birthday parties and sh*t that kids still like. I mean there is always stuff that's going to fail and need to evolve, but communities need to be smart about what to do. I was telling my wife just the other day about Rochester and how they're actually getting rid of a section of their Highway Loop:

 

[Darkavius]

I think we might have been able to get here without forced labor. I know the white supremacists dont think so, but I dont see a logical reason the wealth needed to be THAT concentrated at the top

Sinister's video about Japan is depressing but America (including Vegas) could have a boom if we actually started investing in efficient rail systems. This nonsense about it not being able to done is ridiculous. Bullet trains exist in places like Tokyo and Rome. Building an actual public transportation rail system like what was done for cars for the Interstate Highway System could do wonders for Americans.

People like RFK want a healthier America. More public transportation encourages more exercise. No one likes insurance companies. Good public transportation allows for poorer people (and people as a whole) to get rid of car insurance. There is an issue with jobs. Having a nationwide public transit system allows for at least a generation of people to have work.

 

[Mock Artwork]

Capitalism definition:

"an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit."

When searching "capitalism in simple terms:"

"In simple terms, capitalism is an economic system where individuals and private companies own the means of production, and the main goal is to make a profit."

Profit is the goal, not service or utility. Look what wonders that has done for health care, housing. I think a good statement about capitalism and nature was made in Meet Joe Black because this is subtly about the profit motive, starting at 2:05:



Hence the notion that capitalism never actually creates, only replicates. Innovators are almost never solely motivated by profit as opposed to filling a need or a service, or making an expression (art). Capitalists fly in and either try to buy up the artist themselves, or buy up all the rights. Billy Corgan did a very good job explaining this to Brogan:



I don't know if communism produces the exact same kinds of heirarchies because again, Imperialism has almost always interfered with communism with regards to economic systems of Countries. But I'm not trying to Champion communism, just criticize capitalism. I think heirarchy is defeated by democracy, even if it seems that democracy installs a heirarchy, the point is it can be dismantled in one cycle. And capitalists have hated this notion just as much as any authoritarian socialist or communist. Hence all this "so and so shouldnt be allowed to vote" talk that keeps getting louder and with a wider scope among rightists here.

Yes, absolutely. Consider it for a moment. The United States, the champion model of capitalism, has produced some of the most terrific technology out there. Sure, it could have been done in a communistic single-state style where the state (IE. you) subsidize them. Historically, this hasn't worked well. We breed innovation through competition and that is done through incentive. Do I think Jeff Bezos deserves absurd wealth? Of course not! Am I going to abandon the economic model. Certainly not. It just needs parameters and ceilings that the American citizen and its elected officials refused to do in favor of Laissez-faire economics. Its how the tool is being used is what's wrong, not the tool itself which is inherent in almost all of modern society. Trade diversification and the use of capital in lieu of trying to trade in multiple commodities (specialization) has been here for ever. It's been here LONG before imperialism and democracy.

Karl Marx even said that a true communist state, get this, would take stable markets to enact. The father of it all even said that markets have to be good for the consumer in order to implement the ideal. No-one wants to work without a profit. Imagine if you were limited on the amount you made versus your 'needs' (if you think they would let YOU define that, anyway)? Probably the biggest driver of world hunger is inefficacy. Maybe we should pull back and look at what's fucking the model over before throwing the whole machine out? Cause I think what we have now is absolutely awesome, it just has been supplanted by people in it for themselves.

 

[Mock Artwork]

but when those already at the top of the hierarchy rig the deck, in favour of future generations of the already-privileged (see my private school EG above) that is bullshit and should be mediated wherever possible

Sure, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm just arguing that capitalism isn't the mechanical boogeyman people make it out to be. It's the engineers we allow to work on it.

 

[Mock Artwork]

Not to be dramatic but all forms of government, economic system and religion will ultimately fail due to the corrupt, greedy and violent nature of the human being. Some may take longer than others but the end will always be the same. We just happen to be living in a time of capitalist collapse.

Really, this is about it. The world just doesn't work on everyone making their own decisions about how things work. We naturally delegate and allow others to affect our lives for our general - mutual - well being. As long as there's opportunity, there's spoilage. Even further, that old rule of malice and ignorance. It's the ever present opportunity for power that eventually corrupts in every system. The ideal is transparency and accountability.

 

[Sinister]

You seem to be on one, and I appreciate that. I'll have to take these responses as they come.

I think, if anything, you have a good heart but are generalizing a lot. Hierarchies appear almost everywhere. It's actually built into genetics. You have recessive and dominant alleles. That's one over the other. You may only have the eye color you do because of a hierarchies. Further, that dominant allele will demonstrate itself even when paired with another recessive allele. I hope you see the point I'm making here. It's not that they should or shouldn't exist, they just do.

I'm not advocating for anything, here. I'm as upset at the model we have today as any other levelheaded individual. You are operating out of a need to criticize, and when that's your need that will always be your result. I will mention it in another comment, but you move the goalposts in equating imperialism with capitalism as a hard tether. One is the tool, the other is the ideal.

Lastly, you deal with hierarchies all the time that you willingly accept. You accept it in representative democracy which you participate in and endorse. Even though, that's not really anything but accepting a hierarchy. If we had true democracy, you would vote in referendums and you would be doing a lot of it. Now, I know you won't apply it to Trump (I respect that), but the system is based on electing leaders to make those decisions for you at the price of your productivity.

Im not entirely sure why this is becoming about me, specifically. I don't require agreement. But if someone responds in my thread I'm going to address it unless its disingenuous trolling.

I've already said there are versions of heirarchy that may be used as a tool. If someone is elected into a leadership position others must acquiesce to their leadership at least to some degree, however the mechanism to remove them must remain intact and healthy. I cant think of a single model of capitalism that doesnt eventually start to erode that ability, specifically. And the louder the respective ruling class tells us it's for our own good that we concede rights to them the less we should believe them. Also most capitalist Countries have Historically also been imperialist as huge factors in their development. That's just a fact. If there is one that wasnt I'm happy to consider it. I just won't ignore the imperialism of a Nation to look at the capitalism in a more favorable light.

I just disagree with your view of heirarchies, even if you're not attaching a social prescription to them. What do "dominant" and "recessive" mean when it comes to traits? It just refers to how the alleles work, or don't. Dominant alleles also cause things like dwarfism. Things we class as "disorders." I'm not sure gene function should be used to validate this context. It reminds me of misunderstood metabolic processes and how for years nutritionists told people the human body PREFERS carbohydrate, because they found out the body burns carbohydrate first to achieve homeostasis of blood/sugar. However realistically that's not supposed to take a long time and once that balance is reached the body will begin burning fat as the primary fuel source and in a healthy metabolism it will burn fat for much more time in a day than it will sugar. So which does it prefer?

I never denied the existence of heirarchy, just pointing out that they're not this rigid static thing that never get upset.

 

[Darkavius]

We definitely need to think outside the box. Gaming is good. I mean we seem to be trying to Jake ourselves a hub of Pro Sports, but we're just buying trash Oakland doesn't want anymore lol. Despite our schools being pretty horrible, we have a magnificent program for Pre-K. UNLV is still pretty strong. But this is just me throwing spaghetti at the wall. Im not entirely sure what we should do altogether but the answer quite obviously isnt trusting the corporations. I mean they COULD buy us a few more decades by restoring the deals and tailoring their experiences to the working class again. And they're kinda sorta starting to, but its not enough.

This problem reminds me of another colossal blunder of capitalism that, or course, capitalism zealots will call a success. Which is the shopping malls. Anyone my age or older has mall experienced burned into their brains and I even remember when communities opposed them. Entire local economies were built around these things. And even before Amazon blew up their influence was waning. They had started to remove a lot of the things like arcades and sh*t that made them fun, they reduced the mall experience to ONLY commerce. If you had no money, there was literally no reason to go. As a kid I could spend a whole day in a mall by myself with $10. And now?



Theres thousands of these things just as there are giant abandoned schools, abandoned downtowns, etc. Vegas has a few malls that actually operate and look like traditional alive malls because someone was smart enough to use the space wisely and place destination experiences in them, like fun centers for birthday parties and sh*t that kids still like. I mean there is always stuff that's going to fail and need to evolve, but communities need to be smart about what to do. I was telling my wife just the other day about Rochester and how they're actually getting rid of a section of their Highway Loop:

I agree about the malls but man they used to be amazing. That being said you said you are not sure what should be done. How about this for an idea? I would argue that the Federal Government should partner with states on a 5 to 10 year plan. Each state chooses what industry they want to build up that can be accurately measured by State and Federal standards. Say for example Nevada wanted to focus on the hospitality industry and build that up? You could measure how good, affordable and how satisfied workers are over time in that industry.

Now it seems narrow minded and like it would be another 1960's Detroit all over again but my thinking is if each state focused on an industry and could produce substantial standards then it would slowly move to other areas. For example, if the best doctors were in Massachusetts the idea would be to go get people in Ohio who want to be doctors and get them trained in Massachusetts with the thinking that knowledge would come back to help people in Ohio.

 

[Sinister]

Sinister's video about Japan is depressing but America (including Vegas) could have a boom if we actually started investing in efficient rail systems. This nonsense about it not being able to done is ridiculous. Bullet trains exist in places like Tokyo and Rome. Building an actual public transportation rail system like what was done for cars for the Interstate Highway System could do wonders for Americans.

People like RFK want a healthier America. More public transportation encourages more exercise. No one likes insurance companies. Good public transportation allows for poorer people (and people as a whole) to get rid of car insurance. There is an issue with jobs. Having a nationwide public transit system allows for at least a generation of people to have work.

I want those trains here very badly, however those videos sobered me on their existence as counters to capitalism. Lol Especially how he said he felt forced to exercise so he could work more. I sincerely hope the youth in Japan awaken eventually. They need a bit of a cultural revolution as well, at least so they can start making children again.

I agree about the malls but man they used to be amazing. That being said you said you are not sure what should be done. How about this for an idea? I would argue that the Federal Government should partner with states on a 5 to 10 year plan. Each state chooses what industry they want to build up that can be accurately measured by State and Federal standards. Say for example Nevada wanted to focus on the hospitality industry and build that up? You could measure how good, affordable and how satisfied workers are over time in that industry.

Now it seems narrow minded and like it would be another 1960's Detroit all over again but my thinking is if each state focused on an industry and could produce substantial standards then it would slowly move to other areas. For example, if the best doctors were in Massachusetts the idea would be to go get people in Ohio who want to be doctors and get them trained in Massachusetts with the thinking
that knowledge would come back to help people in Ohio.

You dirty Commie!!

 

[Sinister]

Yes, absolutely. Consider it for a moment. The United States, the champion model of capitalism, has produced some of the most terrific technology out there. Sure, it could have been done in a communistic single-state style where the state (IE. you) subsidize them. Historically, this hasn't worked well. We breed innovation through competition and that is done through incentive. Do I think Jeff Bezos deserves absurd wealth? Of course not! Am I going to abandon the economic model. Certainly not. It just needs parameters and ceilings that the American citizen and its elected officials refused to do in favor of Laissez-faire economics. Its how the tool is being used is what's wrong, not the tool itself which is inherent in almost all of modern society. Trade diversification and the use of capital in lieu of trying to trade in multiple commodities (specialization) has been here for ever. It's been here LONG before imperialism and democracy.

Karl Marx even said that a true communist state, get this, would take stable markets to enact. The father of it all even said that markets have to be good for the consumer in order to implement the ideal. No-one wants to work without a profit. Imagine if you were limited on the amount you made versus your 'needs' (if you think they would let YOU define that, anyway)? Probably the biggest driver of world hunger is inefficacy. Maybe we should pull back and look at what's fucking the model over before throwing the whole machine out? Cause I think what we have now is absolutely awesome, it just has been supplanted by people in it for themselves.

Yes In aware of what Marx said. Just as Adam Smith said Government intervention was necessary in market capitalism to establish parameters and provide public works and services.

I'm not a Communist. I do believe that a mixed system works best. I just dont think we need to continue with all these myths about how amazing capitalism is that blinded us from ending up where we are.

Also no one has yet to justify to me the privatization of resources like water. I dont see any real net benefit of that sh*t. Private ownership that excuses that sort of thing will always be ridiculous IMO. Someone pointing at a f*ckin mountain and telling me they bought it lol I told this story in another thread but in Virginia I did landscaping (heavy stuff, not cutting grass, we were replanting trees) for a Dentist who was very investment-wealthy. Dude "owned" a portion of a river. He also had a lake, where he paid to have imported fish, dropped in by helicopter, so he could...go fishing.

Dumbest sh*t I've ever seen. And they call me irresponsible with money if I buy me some rims.

 

[Cole train]

No I'm not making a semantic argument, I'm making a substantive one. A web and a chan function completley differently. There are no "ruling class" animals presiding over other animals, dictating their entire existence merely for the benefit of that animal's prosperity. That's not the nature of the relationship. The predators die off almost immediately of they prey animals are gone. The same is also true for capitalists. John Deere found that out the hard way when they tried to have office execs to work the factories. This is a good moment to show another channel I really like and just recently discovered:



These channels have popped up to break the remanticization of Japan and I think its awesome. An artistic expression of monotony in a shareholder economy.

F*ck that heirarchy.

Btw crazy how that guys channel exploded, i randomly got his video in recommendations when he had few vids now he has a lot lol

 

[Croaker]

You sound poor

The reality is Vegas is in the middle of the fucking desert and was over-saturated. Small towns have limited opportunities in a world that grew, thats why they died out. No economic structure changes this. The world is vastly different than the 1950s and there is way more variety in hobbies, job markets, and overall opportunity.

 

[Sinister]

Btw crazy how that guys channel exploded, i randomly got his video in recommendations when he had few vids now he has a lot lol

The only thing that kinda bugs me is he isnt Japanese. He just lived and works there. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'd like to see the thoughts of actual Japanese men raised and indoctrinated into that work culture heirarchy.

 

[Sinister]

You sound poor

The reality is Vegas is in the middle of the fucking desert and was over-saturated. Small towns have limited opportunities in a world that grew, thats why they died out.

"I cant contend with the nuance in this thread so I'd rather insult you and then respond with a comical oversimplification."

 

[Cole train]

The only thing that kinda bugs me is he isnt Japanese. He just lived and works there. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'd like to see the thoughts of actual Japanese men raised and indoctrinated into that work culture heirarchy.

Well fuck thats news to me,thought he was local

 

[Croaker]

"I cant contend with the nuance in this thread so I'd rather insult you and then response with a comical oversimplification."

No, you're just a halfwit blaming capitalism instead of your own lack of ability. There is no economic system that changes this, you just blame the rich despite if all the rich were wiped out a new class of rich would emerge immediately.

For all the issues with todays economic system its not because of "Capitalism" its due to government policies protecting them. Back in the day companies would just die out and we'd have natural regressions in the economy, new sectors would emerge. Now we have government bailouts and protections from competition even entering the marketplace. That's not capitalism.

I'd be surprised if you even knew how to gain assets and get around taxes, which btw, isn't an issue because the government does a terrible job with tax dollar spending but does a great job at suckering you into paying them.

 

[Sinister]

Well fuck thats news to me,thought he was local

Nah I looked back through his channel and it said he had been in Japan for X number of years in earlier videos. He still does a really good job. Those videos can crush your soul just after a few minutes. I think he has one where he stays in an Internet Cafe overnight because he missed his last train to make the commute. That really sucked to see considering how small the space was and that he was at one that didnt even serve overpriced food so he had to leave to buy food (cutting into his rest time).

 

[Sinister]

No, you're just a halfwit blaming capitalism instead of your own lack of ability. There is no economic system that changes this, you just blame the rich despite if all the rich were wiped out a new class of rich would emerge immediately.

For all the issues with todays economic system its not because of "Capitalism" its due to government policies protecting them. Back in the day companies would just die out and we'd have natural regressions in the economy, new sectors would emerge. Now we have government bailouts and protections from competition even entering the marketplace. That's not capitalism.

I'd be surprised if you even knew how to gain assets and get around taxes, which btw, isn't an issue because the government does a terrible job with tax dollar spending but does a great job at suckering you into paying them.

"Because you criticize my religion, I'm going to assume you're a colossal failure. And then I'm going to make the same dumb ANCAP anti-Government argument that people in my religion always make."

They don't sucker working class people into paying them you moron. They threaten direct violence. This is a systemic critique, I didnt even bring up any specific rich people, just that wealthy classes of people almost always do this whether they're monarchs, or oligarchs, if their wealth-hoarding remains unchecked. The system has the flaws it has BECAUSE of the wealthy class. Why do we have Government bailouts now? Because they were lobbied for. Why do we have corporate concentration? Because they pay for the gutting of the agencies responsible for preventing that. It always makes me laugh when people contend that our Government magically got bad at these things or came up with bad policies. These politicians farm out their policy proposal writing to private interest groups and "think tanks." lol