The Big Picture: America, The Shining City on the Hill

[lfd0311]

Lol. Wow.
My argument was that it takes more than American equipment to win a war, so it's kinda silly to say America won the war, based predominantly on the strength of America having provided the Soviets and other Allies with tools to help them fight the war.

Sure it does. But you've also horribly mischaracterized what Lend/Lease was. Earlier you claimed we gave the Soviets "a few trucks". Now we're simply providing "tools to help fight the war". For the majority of the war, 80+% of our artillery shells and small arms ammunition production was going directly to the Soviet Union. That's while ourselves fighting a two fronted war for the majority of the war. We also gave them, as you said, huge amounts of supply trucks as well as tanks and other front line fighting equipment. That's not even counting food. 3 million tons of food, just to the Soviet Union. Without that, what shape do you think the Red Army would have been in? We also gave tons of that to England and other allies.The US' only contribution to the war effort could have been Lend/Lease, and the US would still be responsible for winning the war. None of that takes away from the fact that the German Army died in Russia. The truth of one does not cancel out the truth of the other. That's what people like you always seem to have trouble with. You think that only one of those things can be true. What WWII demonstrated was the power of the Germans, and how it took a literal collective effort from the entire world to barely beat them.

ETA: "Lend-lease" won the war is not the introduction of a discussion, so get off that high horse of yours. You blurted out a non sequitur and then expected to be taken seriously? Pff.

I mean, I always expect facts and reality to be taken seriously.

 

[PHATV]

Your dismissal of his legit sources is just another example of the funny paradox of education in the US.

I cited three things, HC, social/economic mobility and access to higher education where the US is undeniably #1 in the world unless you get into REALLY massaging your numbers with all these other factors, multipliers, etc. that heavily favor other systems in order to elevate them and downplay our greatness. And then point to "intellectual persuasion" as if that means your fake rankings are legit.

There were no legit sources cited, only talking points. I just knew those talking points of "US isn't best" were from the same BS "rankings" I've seen before. LOL @ 27th for healthcare. That's akin to ranking prime Mike Tyson the #27 HW in the world because there were fighters who would fight for less money.
But no, there was no source period unless you consider words on the screen a source. Like yours. I only had to get to "Health Care Index" in your post and that's exactly what I'm talking about. Best care is in the US. Period. You can rank what you want however you want. Facts don't change based on the opinions of your oh-so-educated experts analyzing the "true" factors. Best is best. I'm not talking cost.

I already laid out that not one person in the US, including illegal aliens of which we have dozens upon dozens of millions, is without HC in the US. So why would you say that they were? Ignorance I guess, because it's simply not the case. It has always been a talking point, but that lie was necessarily ramped up with Obama. Nobody is refused care in the US, period. Regardless of their citizenship status or ability to pay. It's crazy, but that's how we do it. Have for 35 years at least, that I'm aware of and have seen it during my working career.

Is that the case in Sweden and the UK? I have no idea, that's just a legit question. People from anywhere on the planet can show up for free healthcare? And be availed the same care as your citizens? At no cost to them? I can? All I have to do it get there and I get free HC paid for by you and other Swedes? Because they can here. You know, where it's so terrible. And here, they are availed the best HC in the world. Sweden? Yeah, not so much.

How long do you wait on a MRI in Sweden if you say, tear your ACL? What if you get a herniated disc in your back? I know from a friend/UK native how it works in the UK with NHS for the herniated disc and it's fucking hilarious that anyone would even act like there is anywhere with US-quality HC on the planet. Because there isn't. I'm not arguing cost. If I can get my appendix removed for $1100 total in the DR, I guess that makes their care superior on your cute little "Health Care Index"? Pass.

Perhaps even more unfortunate, I also know native Swedes that I've been friends with for 35 years. Since they were HS exchange students. So I've heard their thoughts as well, not just yours.

Also, would the "number of reasons" you mention for Sweden's HC being in a shitty state be the overwhelming number of imported muslims in your country now? Those that will overtake your indigenous population in a matter of a couple/few generations? Just curious if you can answer that honestly or we'll again go down the path of BS data manipulation to circumvent facts that are readily apparent to those of us without your grand "intellectual persuasion", but with a modicum of common sense that can make facts that apparently escape some so very easy to see.

 

[Squarechoke]

I cited three things, HC, social/economic mobility and access to higher education where the US is undeniably #1 in the world unless you get into REALLY massaging your numbers with all these other factors, multipliers, etc. that heavily favor other systems in order to elevate them and downplay our greatness. And then point to "intellectual persuasion" as if that means your fake rankings are legit.

There were no legit sources cited, only talking points. I just knew those talking points of "US isn't best" were from the same BS "rankings" I've seen before. LOL @ 27th for healthcare. That's akin to ranking prime Mike Tyson the #27 HW in the world because there were fighters who would fight for less money.
But no, there was no source period unless you consider words on the screen a source. Like yours. I only had to get to "Health Care Index" in your post and that's exactly what I'm talking about. Best care is in the US. Period. You can rank what you want however you want. Facts don't change based on the opinions of your oh-so-educated experts analyzing the "true" factors. Best is best. I'm not talking cost.

I already laid out that not one person in the US, including illegal aliens of which we have dozens upon dozens of millions, is without HC in the US. So why would you say that they were? Ignorance I guess, because it's simply not the case. It has always been a talking point, but that lie was necessarily ramped up with Obama. Nobody is refused care in the US, period. Regardless of their citizenship status or ability to pay. It's crazy, but that's how we do it. Have for 35 years at least, that I'm aware of and have seen it during my working career.

Is that the case in Sweden and the UK? I have no idea, that's just a legit question. People from anywhere on the planet can show up for free healthcare? And be availed the same care as your citizens? At no cost to them? I can? All I have to do it get there and I get free HC paid for by you and other Swedes? Because they can here. You know, where it's so terrible. And here, they are availed the best HC in the world. Sweden? Yeah, not so much.

How long do you wait on a MRI in Sweden if you say, tear your ACL? What if you get a herniated disc in your back? I know from a friend/UK native how it works in the UK with NHS for the herniated disc and it's fucking hilarious that anyone would even act like there is anywhere with US-quality HC on the planet. Because there isn't. I'm not arguing cost. If I can get my appendix removed for $1100 total in the DR, I guess that makes their care superior on your cute little "Health Care Index"? Pass.

Perhaps even more unfortunate, I also know native Swedes that I've been friends with for 35 years. Since they were HS exchange students. So I've heard their thoughts as well, not just yours.

Also, would the "number of reasons" you mention for Sweden's HC being in a shitty state be the overwhelming number of imported muslims in your country now? Those that will overtake your indigenous population in a matter of a couple/few generations? Just curious if you can answer that honestly or we'll again go down the path of BS data manipulation to circumvent facts that are readily apparent to those of us without your grand "intellectual persuasion", but with a modicum of common sense that can make facts that apparently escape some so very easy to see.

No, the US is not undeniably #1 in those cases. In fact the US is one of the worst countries in socio-economic mobility in the west. Even on a more basic level your rhetoric fails since if something was undeniable there wouldn't be a discussion about it.

You're not stating any facts, you're giving me opinions and irrelevant comparisons. I'm quite sure you're not even aware of which criteria the HC rankings are based on (and no, you don't need to answer since anyone can look them up while posting when they have to), and you just dismiss them because they are "anti-US". That "American martyr" mentality that you find on the Internet is quite odd. And you're clearly showing that you don't actually know how things are in other countries, and yet you're trying to say that the US is the best. That says everything about your opinions.

Of course you can get health care in Europe if you're not a citizen and need it. There are limits of course, just as there is in the US (because you certainly can't get any type of care that you want). It's not just not free in the US though, calling it expensive is an understatement. My favorite example is the South Korean couple that were on vacation in the US and went to the emergency room because their baby fell off the bed and hit its head. The baby was deemed fine, got fed some formula and took a nap with its mother, and they were out again within a few hours. They got billed nearly $19000, which is not only not free but an absolutely absurd amount for anything that's not major surgery and recovery. Compare that to when my mother was in Switzerland (a very expensive country to be in) and had to have emergency appendectomy, including staying at a hospital for 4 days, which cost the equivalent of $12000 (paid by the Swedish government though).

I don't know the waiting times for specific treatments, and it will vary depending on the area as well. I've only had to deal with the health care system for real once, when I was in a traffic accident a few years ago (which just amounted to me being a bit banged and cut up). When I got to the emergency room I was in an MRI within 15 minuts of arriving. There are some things you have to wait quite a while for, which is the main reason it's gotten worse. But you will not see people avoiding to go to the hospital because they don't want to pay expensive fees or deductibles. You are aware of that there is private health care as well in all countries with public health care, right? You can take private health insurance if you want, and it will likely be significantly cheaper to pay for yourself than in the US. Especially seeing how the US already spends more tax money on health care per capita than Sweden does.

As for the reasons why Swedish health care has become worse, of course bringing in non-working immigrants into the country adds to that (both directly and also through costing society in other ways, as that money could theoretically be put towards HC), but it's a far more complex issue than to be able to blame it on that. The worst part is likely wasting money though an inefficient organization, something you would be familiar with as an American as the US spends about twice as much as Sweden per capita, with private and public spending put together.

But in the end, having neither any experience nor any good knowledge about other countries makes for an extremely poor base for saying that expert rankings with fully transparent criteria are wrong. Even if they were wrong that would not be how you would arrive at the conclusion. It would be like guessing at the answer of an equation instead of actually solving it.

 

[second sight]

follow up video to madmicks op



pretty scary stuff here, maybe a good time to try and make a point I've tried in the past.

 

[squeezewax]

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2021/04/09/the-curtain-has-drawn-down-on-americas-day-in-the-sun/

'Here are few numbers, we’ll start with two: 447 million and 4.67 billion. These two numbers speak volumes, and are in the foundation of the America’s decline and increasingly irrational behavior which may, quoting Bachman Turner Overdrive’s famous hit, get us to the point of a proverbial ain’t seen nothing yet. The first number is a population of European Union, while the second one is a population of Asia. Asia’s population constitutes around 60% of all the world’s population. Second place in this count is taken by Africa, around 1.37 billion, and the third–by Latin America and Caribbean with respectable 659 million which is considerably larger still than the population of the European Union. The Northern America’s population is around 371 million, which in the larger scheme of things doesn’t look that impressive. In fact, it isn’t.'

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2021/04/16/american-cities-are-in-decline/

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2021/05/03/the-camp-of-the-saints-is-upon-us/

https://www.claritypress.com/product/disintegration-indicators-of-the-coming-american-collapse/

 

[Madmick]

Unexpected necro.

Had to update the OP. Must have been a playlist or a channel or something like that because the embedded video was no longer the one I originally linked. I've corrected that with the update. It's called "The Fallen of WWII", and as the OP noted, it was made by the historian Neil Halloran in 2016. For your convenience, I'll duplicate it here:


I'm still upset that videos like this aren't given their due. Should have won the Oscar. Although the short documentary that did win that year, The White Helmets, was also phenomenal:

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2021/04/09/the-curtain-has-drawn-down-on-americas-day-in-the-sun/

'Here are few numbers, we’ll start with two: 447 million and 4.67 billion. These two numbers speak volumes, and are in the foundation of the America’s decline and increasingly irrational behavior which may, quoting Bachman Turner Overdrive’s famous hit, get us to the point of a proverbial ain’t seen nothing yet. The first number is a population of European Union, while the second one is a population of Asia. Asia’s population constitutes around 60% of all the world’s population. Second place in this count is taken by Africa, around 1.37 billion, and the third–by Latin America and Caribbean with respectable 659 million which is considerably larger still than the population of the European Union. The Northern America’s population is around 371 million, which in the larger scheme of things doesn’t look that impressive. In fact, it isn’t.'

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2021/04/16/american-cities-are-in-decline/

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2021/05/03/the-camp-of-the-saints-is-upon-us/

https://www.claritypress.com/product/disintegration-indicators-of-the-coming-american-collapse/

Upon closer inspection, what in the hell does this have to do with the subject of the OP?

 

[Yehudim]

@Madmick

Had I read this 5 years ago, I would have visibly cringed, today I wholeheartedly believe this

We are the most morally virtuous, ethical, benevolent leaders you will ever know: yes, capitalist USA.

People will point out Cold War power politics or past racial discrimination, but looking at the complete picture and it just becomes self-evident that we are indeed an exceptional nation. It’s sad that a large part of the US population and our “allies” have viewed us as irredeemable

 

[Yehudim]

When you compare the US to the rest of world you are wrong.

Evidence? Look at everyone that has come here or wants to come here. We can cherry pick definitions and how you want to quantify things but suffice to say America provides OPPORTUNITY not GUARANTEES.

But as the world lives under the umbrella of our protection the comparison skews the results. Europe would be embroiled in another world war - and these paradises I think you want to compare the US to would look like a post-war Poland.

We have grown up in an American security umbrella and have taken it for granted.

You can’t really convince a guy like that, that the US has contributed so much to security, stability, and prosperity, because he doesn’t understand that we are living in a unique time.

I am relatively optimistic that nuclear weapons and diminishing birth rates are significant enough deterrents to prevent the world (minus the US) from catching fire though, when American security becomes irrelevant

 

[Islam Imamate]

I just think it's a strange thing to claim. I would never look to the US as a shining example of anything other than military might.
The world is certainly a more violent and insecure place because of the US.

I wouldn't look to the US for shining examples of
Healthcare
Political corruption
Social mobility
Access to higher education
Worker rights
Livable minimum wage
Secularism
Wealth distribution
Etc

America is, or at least was, a shining example on the issue of secularism. Our secular model was never intended to be like that of France where the state and society are completely allergic to religion in the public sphere, rather it was one where religion was allowed to flourish in the public sphere because the state remained religiously neutral instead of establishing any one tradition as the official doctrine of the state.

But unfortunately many Americans, especially but not limited to those on the left, prefer the cancerous French model where religious people are expected to be shunned from politics and public life.

 

[Ophydian]

And yet you will constantly hear on this forum that America being the world police is a bad idea. I’ve come to realize that this a Gen Z/Millennial mindset. One that has forgot about history.

 

[D3THRONED]

Don't know what you got til it's gone. Just wait until the Europeans have to arm and defend themselves.