The Big Picture: America, The Shining City on the Hill

Thats some strong kool aid there. I think what TS is arguing that America has caused less death due to war and atrocities than previous empires. That may be true but America still causes death, destruction, and chaos around the world. Still not a good thing even if better than others.
Until we undergo a fundamental change as a species, those who covet, want to force their values on outsiders and want more for themselves at the cost to others will always cause death, destruction and chaos around the world. There are many worse alternatives to the US as the global big dog, so criticism left untempered by understanding is just petulance and comes from a place of ignorance, or envy, or feelings of inadequacy.

The big question to ask is could or would others do better? No.
 
The big question to ask is could or would others do better? No.
A more interesting question to ask is do we need to live in a unipolar world and is that always preferable?
 
...We're far and away #1 in any of these categories:
Healthcare
Social mobility
Access to higher education...

Wrong, wrong and wrong. You really have no idea what you're talking about. How long have you spent living outside the US? Have you ever even visited anywhere else? Your posts in this thread suggest that you've never been outside your backyard.

If we can't see our flaws, how are we going to improve our country? That's the purpose of honest constructive criticism. Without it, we're just a bunch of fanboys without a clue.
 
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Again, Canadian leaders, European leaders (Berlusconi at the Cleveland Clinic I remember clearly years back), wealthy people from the Middle East, Russia and everywhere else on the planet come here when they're ill. Always have. No where else. Isn't that odd? Pack up suitcases full of cash and come to where the best doctors and HC are. Right here in the good ol' USA.
Maybe you can just tell me where in the world there is better healthcare? Via proof and what you know to be true, not some stupid leftard "study" or list compiled by like-thinkers. Tell me where more wealthy people go for treatment than the US when they are ill. I'll give you a little hint: it's still here. The US. Nowhere else. Always will be. Because our HC is the best on the fucking planet, bar none. THAT'S why all the people with the means to do so come here. So now you know. The US in fact does have the very best health care available on the planet. Thus, everyone who can afford to comes here---to The Cleveland Clinic, The Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, etc.
But by all means, just ignorantly claim it's not true because Nigeria or Cuba is better on some goofy ranking of global HC or whatever. I'm sure you'll have plenty that join you in your Corky Bandwagon, as it were. Carry on.



GTFO with your anti-US made-up "stats". Again, nowhere else is the social mobility better. No where. Name it, please. Examples you know of personally? Thanks in advance.

No where else is there better HC. Do you know what it means to not have HC insurance here? First off, if you're actually poor, you get medicaid. Free, no-deductible medical, dental and vision coverage. That takes care of that, no? So all of our poor get the best HC on the planet, no co-pay, no-deductible, no bill of any kind. No worries. And they use the shit out of it. Call ambulances for toothaches.
Even the bums who CHOOSE not to have HC because they "can't afford it" (they can afford houses/condos, expensive clothes/shoes, cars, boats, phones, vacations, etc.---you get my drift, I've seen it for decades), as well as illegal aliens. What do you think happens to them if they're in an accident or walk into an emergency room? Well, I'll tell you since you don't seem to know. They are treated without concern for their ability to pay and availed the best healthcare and HC service providers anywhere on the planet. So again, US #1. Thanks.

You last comment on schools is just as dumb as the first two, to be honest. No offense. But very few schools cost that much and why do you have to go to that particular school? We let anyone into the university system (even legit illiterate people who can't read/write or articulate a sentence properly and had a 1.0 GPA in HS). I'm not sure why they don't steer them to the trades, I guess just to push loans on them? I don't know.
In any event, even people who have no business near a university have access to "higher education". They take out loans, goof off and take trips with the money for a couple/few years and then walk away without their degree in liberal arts, black studies, theater, art history or music and with a stack of debt they expect someone else to service/pay off. It's the American way. And I've seen it a million times. Unfortunately for several people I know, they co-signed on that shit and are paying $500/month or more while their 27 year-old dipshit kid serves hotdogs at Dodger stadium and pays none. Shit like that.
If they legit belong and can't afford it (and many can't), there are many different avenues to cover the cost of education without incurring any debt. I have a senior who signed up for the Army National Guard. Leaves this summer (corona-tentative, I guess). She'll go to basic, then off to training, then she'll be back early next year and start school. Tuition is 100% paid for at any state school. She also will draw a paycheck, which has already started (just for her weekends now, but will jump after basic and then again after training). Her plan is to attend nursing school while she does the one weekend a month and two weeks each summer over the next several years and hopefully, she will eventually be an RN with no debt whatsoever incurred. It's not some kind of exclusive program. Anyone can do it. And plenty of smart kids with smart parents do.
Or they investigate other ways to make it happen. Oh, and she picked a "needed" occupation which gave her a $20,000 cash bonus. $10,000 cash after basic, $5000 cash after the training ends early next year and the other $5000 just bumps up her monthly pay over the life of her enlistment. I think that was how it was spread out, I'm not looking at the paperwork. She plans on buying a $10,000 used car to get her through college and working part-time at the hospital which, combined with her military pay of $800ish a month (for one weekend a month---which she enjoys and is really Saturday morning until Sunday afternoon) should have her quite comfortable---even while she's a "poor" college student. And that's just one avenue to a free education here. There are plenty of options besides loans. Anyone taking out loans who isn't going into the STEM fields shouldn't be allowed to take out loans to begin with. Because they're clearly not smart enough to ever pay them back---or they wouldn't be picking whatever field of study they're picking. Facts are facts. But don't let them get in the way of a good ol' bash the US narrative.



Now we're getting somewhere. One, huh?
Which one is true? I mean in your eyes. I already know all three are true, but just curious as to which one you're giving us credit for.
"Letting pandemics spread wildly", huh? OK, then. Never mind on the other. I'm out...
tenor.gif




Apologies to @Madmick as this kind of veered off-topic of the OP. Thanks for the vids/links, BTW. Pretty stunning way to lay out German and Soviet losses, as well as the relative world peace we have enjoyed since WWII---thanks to the US.
"Suitcase full of cash"
 
Technology/Globalism > American Morals

American Morals had nothing to do with it.....They carpet bomb cities, and killed a shitload of innocent to motivate the enemy to surrender, basically terrorism tactics...and yes I am aware, everybody was doing it, including germany...The point I'm making, is that technology changed that, once the technology of missles came, we saw most major countries just move away from those tactics...So I credit technology here, much more.


Also Globalism pretty much settled a lot of disputes...People realized that war wasn't good for the bottomline, since the world is much more interwined these days...it's easy to appreciate other countries, and benefit from no war.


Right now, things are good because everybody is making money and we have 1 head honcho over seeing everything...the USA...Don't get me wrong the USA over seeing everything is much better than China/Russia but China is gonna eventually gonna challenge the USA for that spot....I mean they are already are but shit might get more intense in the future, which could lead to way more killings/wars so basically we could just be delaying the inevitable and just building up World War 3 even more for when shit does hit the fan.
 
Wrong, wrong and wrong. You really have no idea what you're talking about. How long have you spent living outside the US? Have you ever even visited anywhere else? Your posts in this thread suggest that you've never been outside your backyard.

If we can't see our flaws, how are we going to improve? That's the purpose of honest constructive criticism. Without it, we're just a bunch of fanboys without a clue.
Who has better HC than the US in your eyes? Just out of curiosity. Because you're wrong. Or the other two bullet points, for that matter. Wrong, wrong and wrong. lol
I've never "lived" outside the US technically, but I've been all over the US and even a few other countries (aside from Canada/Mexico which are gimmes), believe it or not. However, I'm assuming you have lived elsewhere based on your question? I'm not sure what difference it makes either way. It certainly didn't make you any smarter, regardless of what you might think.
 
I don't mean literally, just that they have the ability to pay for what is the best HC in the world. But you knew that.
I think his point is that they can only afford it because they can have a proverbial "suitcase full of cash" which most Americans don't have literally or otherwise. In other words, your point does nothing to address the criticism of US healthcare that its cost prevents access to a significant swath of Americans. Tbh its kind of an indictment that rich people from other countries can come over here and drop a chunk of change and get treatment while actual Americans can't, not really "America first" as far as I am concerned. Kinda like how in Cuba beef is reserved for tourists staying at high end hotels while average Cubans living on the island rarely if ever taste beef.
 
Americans are very patriotic, it's something that's hammered into them starting from a young age. Additionally, groups (national, ethnic, religious) believing themselves to be superior to other groups is an ubiquitous phenomenon. It's related to self-esteem, believing your group to be superior allows the person to maintain a positive social image which in turn boosts individual self-esteem.

People can present as many "logical" explanations for why 'Murica is supposedly better, but in reality I'm going to assume the decision has been taken on an emotional level a very very long time ago. It's not a special snowflake belief, it's the norm. The post-hoc rationalizations are just there to shore up what was already decided, it's not what was used to make the decision.

Reality is other countries, even third-world ones, have aspects that are more positive and that become obvious once you live there. For example many third-world countries have a strong sense of community and friendliness in a way that simply doesn't exist in the US. And other developed countries have a plethora of subtleties in culture, habits, lifestyle, that will make them superior or inferior in an arena. People who believe their country is superior in every metric are engaged in self-serving delusion, plain and simple. And it's not a very enriching mindset either; it's the idea that you've found everything good already so you're not going to bother finding out what exists elsewhere. A closed box.
 
A more interesting question to ask is do we need to live in a unipolar world and is that always preferable?
No, to both. However, a basic standard of behavior should be demanded of those we do business with.

What's with the baby blue name?
 
Though American healthcare is deeply flawed in terms of access we still have some of the best medical facilities in the entire planet due to our top tier research institutions.
You jumped to 36,676 posts and became a moderator? When did that happen?
 
You jumped to 36,676 posts and became a moderator? When did that happen?
like, demi-moderator. they trust him to be evenhanded in the warroom but suspect if they unleash him on the heavies he'd be a despotic tyrant.
 
Wrong, wrong and wrong. You really have no idea what you're talking about. How long have you spent living outside the US? Have you ever even visited anywhere else? Your posts in this thread suggest that you've never been outside your backyard.

If we can't see our flaws, how are we going to improve? That's the purpose of honest constructive criticism. Without it, we're just a bunch of fanboys without a clue.
thats gold, he couldnt even get 1 out of 3 right randomly <36>
 
Dude, you started blathering about the Middle East as if that had some relevance to the discussion, which was how lend/lease won WWII. But sure. It was sarcastic dismissal and stuff.

Lol. Wow.
My argument was that it takes more than American equipment to win a war, so it's kinda silly to say America won the war, based predominantly on the strength of America having provided the Soviets and other Allies with tools to help them fight the war.
I brought up the Middle East because, well, your guys' various clown shows there have proven that while material assistance might be nice, it doesn't win wars.

ETA: "Lend-lease" won the war is not the introduction of a discussion, so get off that high horse of yours. You blurted out a non sequitur and then expected to be taken seriously? Pff.
 
GTFO with your anti-US made-up "stats". Again, nowhere else is the social mobility better. No where. Name it, please. Examples you know of personally? Thanks in advance.

No where else is there better HC. Do you know what it means to not have HC insurance here? First off, if you're actually poor, you get medicaid. Free, no-deductible medical, dental and vision coverage. That takes care of that, no? So all of our poor get the best HC on the planet, no co-pay, no-deductible, no bill of any kind. No worries. And they use the shit out of it. Call ambulances for toothaches.
Even the bums who CHOOSE not to have HC because they "can't afford it" (they can afford houses/condos, expensive clothes/shoes, cars, boats, phones, vacations, etc.---you get my drift, I've seen it for decades), as well as illegal aliens. What do you think happens to them if they're in an accident or walk into an emergency room? Well, I'll tell you since you don't seem to know. They are treated without concern for their ability to pay and availed the best healthcare and HC service providers anywhere on the planet. So again, US #1. Thanks.

You last comment on schools is just as dumb as the first two, to be honest. No offense. But very few schools cost that much and why do you have to go to that particular school? We let anyone into the university system (even legit illiterate people who can't read/write or articulate a sentence properly and had a 1.0 GPA in HS). I'm not sure why they don't steer them to the trades, I guess just to push loans on them? I don't know.
In any event, even people who have no business near a university have access to "higher education". They take out loans, goof off and take trips with the money for a couple/few years and then walk away without their degree in liberal arts, black studies, theater, art history or music and with a stack of debt they expect someone else to service/pay off. It's the American way. And I've seen it a million times. Unfortunately for several people I know, they co-signed on that shit and are paying $500/month or more while their 27 year-old dipshit kid serves hotdogs at Dodger stadium and pays none. Shit like that.
If they legit belong and can't afford it (and many can't), there are many different avenues to cover the cost of education without incurring any debt. I have a senior who signed up for the Army National Guard. Leaves this summer (corona-tentative, I guess). She'll go to basic, then off to training, then she'll be back early next year and start school. Tuition is 100% paid for at any state school. She also will draw a paycheck, which has already started (just for her weekends now, but will jump after basic and then again after training). Her plan is to attend nursing school while she does the one weekend a month and two weeks each summer over the next several years and hopefully, she will eventually be an RN with no debt whatsoever incurred. It's not some kind of exclusive program. Anyone can do it. And plenty of smart kids with smart parents do.
Or they investigate other ways to make it happen. Oh, and she picked a "needed" occupation which gave her a $20,000 cash bonus. $10,000 cash after basic, $5000 cash after the training ends early next year and the other $5000 just bumps up her monthly pay over the life of her enlistment. I think that was how it was spread out, I'm not looking at the paperwork. She plans on buying a $10,000 used car to get her through college and working part-time at the hospital which, combined with her military pay of $800ish a month (for one weekend a month---which she enjoys and is really Saturday morning until Sunday afternoon) should have her quite comfortable---even while she's a "poor" college student. And that's just one avenue to a free education here. There are plenty of options besides loans. Anyone taking out loans who isn't going into the STEM fields shouldn't be allowed to take out loans to begin with. Because they're clearly not smart enough to ever pay them back---or they wouldn't be picking whatever field of study they're picking. Facts are facts. But don't let them get in the way of a good ol' bash the US narrative.

Your dismissal of his legit sources is just another example of the funny paradox of education in the US. The country has some of the absolute best universities in the world, but also a surprising amount of people that value personal opinion over facts. Your stance does nothing but set your post up to be dismissed as pro-US propaganda as you show that you accept such shallow dismissal as a way to run a discussion.

The US doesn't rank very highly at all on the Health Care Index (just looking at the rich nations, otherwise it's of course very high) and anyone of any intellectual persuasion will realize that large scale operations should be looked at on a large scale and not from anecdotal evidence, and certainly not emotional opinions like you seem to do. But even with anecdotal evidence I've amassed some as I've lived there for a while. I did so when I was supposed to look over the operations of US companies that my company owns and the workers at the factories I visited had less money after tax and company health care than Swedish workers have after tax, despite Sweden's high taxes and despite that the company offers Swedish workers free access to a company health care facility. The deductibles were also significant, and the most terrible thing I heard was having to pay $1k if you went to the emergency room and was deemed not to require emergency aid. All that resulted in people not utilizing the health care as much as they should, and of course it's easy to keep the queues down if you scare people off from going there. The poor part is that I had a negative comparison despite comparing mainly to Sweden, which currently has its health care in a clearly worse state than it used to be for a number of reasons. Procedures and medicine also have very high cost compared to other countries. I'm of course aware that these things will differ depending on where in the US you are, but that's why actual rankings by people that actually are qualified to analyze health care are important. But who knew that educated and experienced people could be better than patriotic randoms on the Internet?

The US also has the least efficient spending on health care as it ranks #1 by an enormous margin on private spending per capita, and actually ranks #2 in public spending, causing the country to spend way more than anyone else on health care, and still it doesn't manage to provide the best care to all of it's citizens. You guys should really do something about how companies related to health care and medicine are allowed to gouge both the state and the people.

I don't have anything against the US in general, I like the country and certainly won't say that it's a bad place to live, but it's pretty obvious that its not the best at everything and unfortunately some of you propaganda pushers have a very hard time dealing with that fact. Funnily enough I've only encountered people like you on the Internet, never when actually being in the US and meeting people in real life.
 
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