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The Best Jujitseros in MMA

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Madmick, Oct 7, 2010.

  1. Madmick

    Madmick Cerebrage Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I composed the below post for a thread in the HW forum, but I thought it would be a good cross-post to threadstart the issue for the Grappling forum.

    HW: Fabricio Werdum
    LHW: Antonio Rogerio Nogueira
    MW: Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza and Demian Maia
    WW: Andre Galvao and Nick Diaz
    LW: BJ Penn and Shinya Aoki

    For those of you new to MMA and grappling: the ADCC is the Olympics of Submission Wrestling. It happens once every two years (although it was annual when it first started; there have been a total of 8 competitions thus far: 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2009).

    Fabricio Werdum is the ADCC's greatest HW ever with two 1st place finishes, one 2nd, one 3rd, and also a 3rd place finish in the 2003 Absolute tournament. Although Jeff Monson has two 1st's, two 2nd's, and one 3rd, he achieved his best finishes in the ADCC's early years: when the competitions were held annually and when competition wasn't as stiff as it is today (it should still be noted that Monson continues to medal to this day, incredibly). Furthermore, Werdum's two 1st place finishes were from 2009 and 2007, so he can easily be called the world's greatest active HW grappler. The other notable is Marcio "Pe De Pano" Cruz.

    The greatest LHW ADCC grappler of all time is "Xande" Ribeiro; Roger Gracie and Alexandre Ferreira are the other greats from the ADCC, and Roger is probably known as the most accomplished overall of these three; nevertheless, he only dabbles in MMA. The most prominent ADCC competitors who have also competed routinely in MMA are Ricardo Arona and Ricardo Almeida. Arona won the LHW competition twice (in 2001 and 2000), and also won the Absolute Tournament 2001. Almeida finished 4th in the Absolute and 2nd in the LHW in 2001, 3rd in the Absolute in 2000, and 3rd in the LHW in 1999.
    The only problem here is that Almeida moved down in weight over the course of his MMA career eventually landing in the WW division, and Arona was never really known for a strong guard, but more for being a BJJ black belt who fought like an Olympic wrestler (he also hasn't competed at an elite level in MMA for quite some time). Shogun has only one submission in his career, so to put him at #1 would be ridiculous. So I think the best, currently, are either Antonio Rogerio Nogueira or Gerard Mousasi. Since Nogueira has fought the more elite competition, I'm going with him.

    The greatest MW ADCC grappler of all time is Saulo Ribeiro, and the current champion is Braulo Estima; however, the greatest grapplers in this division to have competed seriously in MMA are Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza and Demian Maia. Souza was the runner-up in the Absolute Tournament 2005, the champion of of the MW division in that year, and the runner-up in the MW division in 2003. Maia was the champion MW in 2007, and runner-up in 2005.

    The greatest WW ADCC grappler of all time is Marcelo Garcia; the other standouts are Pablo Popovitch and Jean Jacques Machado. Andre Galvao is obviously known as the greatest Jujitsero that has competed in MMA at WW (he took 2nd in the MW division at this year's ADCC, but the bulk of his resume lies in traditional BJJ competitions); however, since Galvao has only 6 MMA fights to his credit, I think I'll also pick a more accomplished MMA fighter. Of the elite WW's in MMA, I'd say Nick Diaz has the best guard.

    The greatest LW ADCC grapplers of all time are Royler Gracie and Leo Vieira. The best in MMA is Shinya Aoki (he just beat Shaolin, and he has a higher submission percentage, so I don't understand why everyone is putting Shaolin). I was tempted to omit BJ Penn after witnessing his guard get mutilated by Frankie Edgar, but then I realized Edgar would do the same thing to Aoki. Penn's guard is unbelievable; of course he's at the top.


    Alright, sound off. What are your lists?
     
  2. Supereem

    Supereem Black Belt

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    The most glaring is your treatment of Ricardo Arona. First of all Arona fights like a BJJ guy, he attempts passes and submissions. Maybe not that often, but he still attempts them in both MMA and ADCC. To say that his guard sucks is really really ignorant in my opinion. First of all it doesnt suck, and he utilised it in a few fights, such as his fight against Dean Listner. Second of all BJJ ISNT just about the guard, its also about being on top, something that was really strong in the Carlson Gracie lineage, of which Arona is (he received his BB from Liborio). On top of that, I am pretty sure he pulled guard against Gurgel in gi grappling, but I am not 100% sure on this.

    Little Nog is ok, but he is not world class. Also he relies much more on his boxing now than his Jiujitsu. Roger Gracie still competes in MMA and said he was going to more, so I don't think its reasonable to totally leave him out. Also Arona isn't retired and is recovering from an injury from an MMA fight in 2009, he should be number 1 if you are not going to count Roger (even then, it is arguable Arona has better nogi BJJ).
     
  3. Madmick

    Madmick Cerebrage Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Yes, you're the second person to complain about my focus on the guard. That's totally fair. I'm aware that Sperry and the ATT guys always focused more on takedowns than other BJJ schools. I have his instructionals.

    As for Arona...hmm...not so sure I accept this criticism. Arona failed to even break his guard (in that triangle) against Rampage, and as a result, got KTFO. That's a white belt level mistake, so I'd say ignoring that faux pas might reflect some "ignorance" on your part. Seriously, STFU with trying to level "ignorance" at me.

    Lil Nog has always used boxing, but fallen back on his BJJ against strong wrestlers. He's finished 6 of 19 fights by submission; that's a relatively high percentage. Arona, on the other hand, has only 2 submissions in 14 victories, and both were over nobodies (his victory over Overeem was via strikes- submission was verbal, not via Jujitsu). You're coming off as an Arona nuthugger to me who needs to accept that it's him- not Nog- who isn't world class right now.

    Argue Arona is you must, but don't call me ignorant, you boob.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
  4. Supereem

    Supereem Black Belt

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    Ok sorry about the ignorance stuff.

    Getting slammed by Arona is not a 'white belt' mistake . Sakuraba and Bustamante amongst others were also slammed by him, and it is sometimes taught in BJJ that pulling down on the head will stop the person from slamming (I was taught this in a Carlson school) and against strong opponents this obviously doesnt work and Arona found out the hard way. On top of that Little Nog's guard hasnt exactly been lethal as of late, and Brilz almost submitted him. I think the BEST BJJ fighter in the LHW shouldnt have had such a close call. The closest call I can think of with Arona is Shogun's omoplata attempt when he was dazed and he get out of it fairly easily. Brilz was also out positioning Nogueira alot during the fight, something that Arona would not allow anyone to do to him. You cannot expect everyone in MMA to have a terrific guard, it is very hard to submit of your back when you have short legs. But what Arona can do is survive, keep his opponent in his guard, get back to his feet and most importantly take very little damage.

    Overall I would be much more scared to engage Arona on the ground than little Nog. Even if Arona doesnt submit me, he is going to get the dominant position and win the fight easier than Nogueira will.
     
  5. Rawex

    Rawex -

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    Suprised you didnt mention Big Nog? I know he havent won much in grappling competitions but he was champ in Pride and UFC.
     
  6. Supereem

    Supereem Black Belt

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    You can make the argument due to the fact that he outgrappled Werdum in MMA. Also he has improved since his time in ADCC, and I would say he would be very competitive in ADCC today (his grappling is still top notch, not so much his chin though). His sweeps against Randy were insanely awesome!

    But then Werdum submitted Fedor, something Nogueira couldnt do in 2 and a bit fights from the guard.
     
  7. DiscipleOfPog

    DiscipleOfPog Green Belt

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    I may get hate for this but I think GSP has the best BJJ at WW. He takes guys to the ground, dominates them, always passes guard (he never just rabbit punches from the guard), and always attempts submissions. He may not finish too many subs, but his fundamentals and positions have to be some of the best in the world.
     
  8. Supereem

    Supereem Black Belt

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    You could definently argue that he is. He is much more than just a wrestler, he isn't clueless off his back either. Even though he didn't finish the kimura and what not against Hardy, he shouldn't get bashed too hard for this, as even Jacare failed a kimura attempt before, and if he can do it, then GSP can do it as well. I would like to see him deal with a world class guard of someone not named BJ Penn though.
     
  9. Rawex

    Rawex -

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    Correct if i am wrong but didnt GSP go to ADCC and he lost in first match?
     
  10. Supereem

    Supereem Black Belt

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    That was a while ago, he has improved a lot since then! Also remember Nogueira was submitted in ADCC by Ricco Suave.
     
  11. korleone1911

    korleone1911 Blue Belt

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    um... *whispers* Roger
     
  12. spreadthestoke

    spreadthestoke White Belt

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    Vitor Shaolin is pretty heralded isnt he?
     
  13. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    Palhares deserves a mention.
     
  14. NovaUniaoWesty

    NovaUniaoWesty Yellow Belt

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    1) Roger Gracie
    2) Marcelo Garcia
    3) Jacare
    4) Maia
    5)Andre Galvao
    6) Werdum
    7) Aoki

    After this it gets kinda shakey
     
  15. Supereem

    Supereem Black Belt

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    Garcia shouldn't count as his retired from MMA it seems and didn't even win a fight.

    But I think what TS's point was who uses it better in MMA as well, that is why Aoki and Nogueira trumped Arona and Shaolin on his lists.
     
  16. spreadthestoke

    spreadthestoke White Belt

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    Thats fair
     
  17. Rawex

    Rawex -

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    Fair ehough. Still though when talking about GSP, i see him as a wrestler (not to mention he was a black belt in karate first). Imo he is so good in MMA is because he is good at everything. Put him against an elite boxer, kickboxer or bjj guy under respective rules and he will lose to them, but GSP wins each one in a MMA fight.

    Also if he has improved so much then go back to ADCC and win it. Then you can put him to the list:icon_chee
     
  18. UFile

    UFile Purple Belt

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    You aren't allowed to spike or slam your opponents in any grappling tournament. That's not a white belt mistake, you boob.

    Arona is a competition grappler and his knowledge is great. Rampages head knocked him out. Not the slam itself.
     
  19. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    nvm.. dpn't wanna start a war lol
     
  20. Simonsimon

    Simonsimon White Belt

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    HW: Werdum
    LHW: Roger
    MW: Jacar
     

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