The Best Jujitseros in MMA

[Knuckles69]

I may get hate for this but I think GSP has the best BJJ at WW. He takes guys to the ground, dominates them, always passes guard (he never just rabbit punches from the guard), and always attempts submissions. He may not finish too many subs, but his fundamentals and positions have to be some of the best in the world.

You have to remember that recently he made some pretty fundamental mistakes that would have allowed him to finish Hardy. His BJJ is good, but are you really going to say that it's better at WW than Matt Serra let alone Andre Galvao?

 

[Madmick]

I may get hate for this but I think GSP has the best BJJ at WW. He takes guys to the ground, dominates them, always passes guard (he never just rabbit punches from the guard), and always attempts submissions. He may not finish too many subs, but his fundamentals and positions have to be some of the best in the world.

No, actually, as the first poster pointed out, I think myself (and several others in the HW where this topic first appeared) focused too much on guard. Just as Arona slices through guards on top, so does GSP. I've been wondering how you grappling gurus would hash this out.

Overall I would be much more scared to engage Arona on the ground than little Nog. Even if Arona doesnt submit me, he is going to get the dominant position and win the fight easier than Nogueira will.

That's a reasonable argument. Still, for me, we haven't seen Arona against top comp (grappling or MMA) in about 4 years. Nevertheless, as you argue, he might still be the best. Hmmm...and the LHW division has been considered by some (for quite some time) to be the most glamorous in MMA; I wonder why there aren't more elite grapplers in the Top 10? It seems to be the most deficient of the breed among all Top 10's.

 

[Madmick]

um... *whispers* Roger

Ummm...whisper....read the post, dipshit.

 

[BatBoyJG]

I think Jake Shields should be considered at WW No?

 

[Madmick]

You aren't allowed to spike or slam your opponents in any grappling tournament. That's not a white belt mistake, you boob.

Arona is a competition grappler and his knowledge is great. Rampages head knocked him out. Not the slam itself.

We're talking about grappling for MMA, boob. And yes, failing to learn to break guard to relieve pressure from a can-opener (for instance) is white belt to blue belt level: teaching guys to release armbars and triangles to avoid spikes is very, very basic. Fights precipitate mistakes in even the best grapplers, but I'm sorry, it was still a newbie mistake. Boob.

I think Jake Shields should be considered at WW No?

Several in the HW discussion suggested that, too. Make your case. It's not like I know everything (or am even some sort of established expert)...just refrain from calling me an idiot. Clearly I know grappling history, and I'm not a white belt in BJJ, so it's been a bit annoying.

 

[CyberFreq]

HW: Fabricio Werdum
LHW: Arona
MW: Jacare / Maia
WW: Galvao
LW: Penn

 

[Stun Gun]

nog bros, jacare,maia,galvao,arona,aoki,bj penn and charles oliveira

 

[J Sho]

Hmm, not convinced by the original argument in places.

*Hard to say definitively who the best hw, mw etc is since a number of individuals have fought at more than 1 weight at ADCC.
*Refer to them as greatest submission grapplers, not greatest grapplers. Werdum et al would be beaten up if they fought Taymazov or Makhov or other great non-submission grapplers.
*A significant propostion of the early ADCCs had worked matches, i would be hesitant to include PDP or JJ Machado or others as a result.
*The most successful BJJ players at ADCC are Ricardo Arona and Mario Sperry with 4 golds. Mark Kerr also has 4 gold (and a silver).
*I don't really agree that the quality of competition at HW/+99kg has really improved that much, i'd say 2005 was peak for depth of competition with Monson, Werdum, Napao, Pe De Pano and Daniel Gracie in there. 2007 and 2009 were weak in comparison (2007 very weak). 2009 saw a number of big name stars on their last legs competitively (Erickson, Jaoude, Saulo and Monson) and a number of "blown up" lighter guys (Barral, Abreu and Saulo)
*Monson only has a gold, a silver and a bronze at HW/99kg+, he also has a gold and a silver from -99kg (beating Saulo and losing to Arona respectively).
*Galvao is some way from being the best WW BJJ player to have done MMA, Renzo Gracie is (2 time ADCC champ, albeit see comment above). Serra, Shaolin, even Leo Santos would be ahead of Galvao too.
*I'm not sure i'd include Alexandre Ferreira/Cacareco in there since he is primarily of Luta Livre origin.
*The Nog brothers are not outstanding Sports BJJ practiners, but Big Nog at least has a number of impressive performances at the mundials, pan ams and brasilieros - little Nog has never medalled at any belt iirc.

If i had to say who is the best ADCC player "of all time" with a BJJ background factoring in weight class and absolute performances but ignoring the relatively meaningless superfights, and then say then it would be:

HW/+99kg: Marginally Jeff Monson (2 weight titles) over Fabricio Werdum (2 weight titles), a) because monson has more 2nd places and b). when they fought in 2005 Monson beat Werdum.
LHW/-99kg: Ricardo Arona (2 weight and an absolute title)
MW/-88kg: Saulo Ribeiro (2 weight titles)
WW/-77kg: Marcelo Garcia (3 weight titles)
LW/-66KG: Royler Gracie (3 weight titles)

And if i was to say MMA fighter with a BJJ background/solid performance at ADCC then by record/calibre of opponents, probably:

HW/+99kg: Werdum (2 weight titles) - but only on current form/with that win over Fedor, he has some notable losses on his record. For breadth and depth of Career, then Big Nog.
LHW/-99kg: Ricardo Arona (2 weight and an absolute title)
MW/-88kg: Demian Maia (1 weight title)
WW/-77kg: Renzo Gracie (2 weight titles)
LW/-66KG: Rani Yahya (1 weight title) - Royler's mma record isn;t that notable, Penn has never fought ADCC, Aoki doesn;t have much in the way of a no gi comp record and, regardless, he is primarily a judoka with great newaza, not a BJJ player.

 

[Supereem]

Hmm, not convinced by the original argument in places.

*Hard to say definitively who the best hw, mw etc is since a number of individuals have fought at more than 1 weight at ADCC.
*Refer to them as greatest submission grapplers, not greatest grapplers. Werdum et al would be beaten up if they fought Taymazov or Makhov or other great non-submission grapplers.
*A significant propostion of the early ADCCs had worked matches, i would be hesitant to include PDP or JJ Machado or others as a result.
*The most successful BJJ players at ADCC are Ricardo Arona and Mario Sperry with 4 golds. Mark Kerr also has 4 gold (and a silver).
*I don't really agree that the quality of competition at HW/+99kg has really improved that much, i'd say 2005 was peak for depth of competition with Monson, Werdum, Napao, Pe De Pano and Daniel Gracie in there. 2007 and 2009 were weak in comparison (2007 very weak). 2009 saw a number of big name stars on their last legs competitively (Erickson, Jaoude, Saulo and Monson) and a number of "blown up" lighter guys (Barral, Abreu and Saulo)
*Monson only has a gold, a silver and a bronze at HW/99kg+, he also has a gold and a silver from -99kg (beating Saulo and losing to Arona respectively).
*Galvao is some way from being the best WW BJJ player to have done MMA, Renzo Gracie is (2 time ADCC champ, albeit see comment above). Serra, Shaolin, even Leo Santos would be ahead of Galvao too.
*I'm not sure i'd include Alexandre Ferreira/Cacareco in there since he is primarily of Luta Livre origin.
*The Nog brothers are not outstanding Sports BJJ practiners, but Big Nog at least has a number of impressive performances at the mundials, pan ams and brasilieros - little Nog has never medalled at any belt iirc.

If i had to say who is the best ADCC player "of all time" with a BJJ background factoring in weight class and absolute performances but ignoring the relatively meaningless superfights, and then say then it would be:

HW/+99kg: Marginally Jeff Monson (2 weight titles) over Fabricio Werdum (2 weight titles), a) because monson has more 2nd places and b). when they fought in 2005 Monson beat Werdum.
LHW/-99kg: Ricardo Arona (2 weight and an absolute title)
MW/-88kg: Saulo Ribeiro (2 weight titles)
WW/-77kg: Marcelo Garcia (3 weight titles)
LW/-66KG: Royler Gracie (3 weight titles)

And if i was to say MMA fighter with a BJJ background/solid performance at ADCC then by record/calibre of opponents, probably:

HW/+99kg: Werdum (2 weight titles) - but only on current form/with that win over Fedor, he has some notable losses on his record. For breadth and depth of Career, then Big Nog.
LHW/-99kg: Ricardo Arona (2 weight and an absolute title)
MW/-88kg: Demian Maia (1 weight title)
WW/-77kg: Renzo Gracie (2 weight titles)
LW/-66KG: Rani Yahya (1 weight title) - Royler's mma record isn;t that notable, Penn has never fought ADCC, Aoki doesn;t have much in the way of a no gi comp record and, regardless, he is primarily a judoka with great newaza, not a BJJ player.

I disagree that Aoki is primarily a Judoka, his style is definently BJJesque and relies heavily on his guard. Also isn't his master, Yuki Nakai, the first Japanese BJJ BB?

 

[Silverblur]

We're talking about grappling for MMA, boob. And yes, failing to learn to break guard to relieve pressure from a can-opener (for instance) is white belt to blue belt level: teaching guys to release armbars and triangles to avoid spikes is very, very basic. Fights precipitate mistakes in even the best grapplers, but I'm sorry, it was still a newbie mistake. Boob.

Many people have held on to submissions after being elevated survived the slam, and finished their opponent.

Given who he was fighting (not to mention our perfect hind site) holding the triangle was definately a mistake, but I think you're judging Arona a little too harshly for it.

 

[Supereem]

Strikeforce: Roger Gracie vs. Mike Kyle - BJPENN.COM - UFC NEWS - MMA NEWS

Seems that Roger is still active in MMA.

 

[J Sho]

I disagree that Aoki is primarily a Judoka, his style is definently BJJesque and relies heavily on his guard. Also isn't his master, Yuki Nakai, the first Japanese BJJ BB?

Erm, ok you can disagree, but he started as a judoka, competed in Judo at college before starting BJJ (with some success, national junior college champ iirc) and had dominated a couple of BJJ tournies in Japan prior to being awarded his brown and then black belt.

Aoki isn't a "BJJ guy" in the classic mould in the same way GSP, Cacereco, Babalu, Rhadi and others may train BJJ now, may even be BJJ black belts, but their grounding was in another art.

 

[Supereem]

Erm, ok you can disagree, but he started as a judoka, competed in Judo at college before starting BJJ (with some success, national junior college champ iirc) and had dominated a couple of BJJ tournies in Japan prior to being awarded his brown and then black belt.

Aoki isn't a "BJJ guy" in the classic mould in the same way GSP, Cacereco, Babalu, Rhadi and others may train BJJ now, may even be BJJ black belts, but their grounding was in another art.

Well Marcelo Garcia was a state champion in Judo before he started BJJ, does that make him a Judoka .

 

[J Sho]

Aoki is more akin to Leo Leite or Flavio Canto, a judoka with a great gound game who trains BJJ.

A 13 or 14 year old marcelo garcia winning a kids judo championship or two in brazil and then devoting the next 13 years doesn't stand out as a classic judoka turned jitsuka...

 

[Supereem]

Aoki is more akin to Leo Leite or Flavio Canto, a judoka with a great gound game who trains BJJ.

A 13 or 14 year old marcelo garcia winning a kids judo championship or two in brazil and then devoting the next 13 years doesn't stand out as a classic judoka turned jitsuka...

I think the line between Judoka and BJJ practitioner can become blurred, but seeing how he really relies on his guard, it being a staple of BJJ, and doesn't really seem to fit the bill of a classic Judoka (throwing kents left and right), Id call him a BJJ guy .