Thai clinch + MMA- Does it hold up against grapplers?

[Jukai]

Hello, Muay Thai and judo/BJJ hobbyist here! For fun, I like to try to integrate all techniques I've learned under fun, open-rules sparring (revolutionary, ain't it? LOL) and I can tell you this: the Muay Thai clinch is severely underdeveloped in most Western Muay Thai programs out there. Transitioning, scrambles, and shifting control are just as important in the authentic MT clinch as they are in judo and BJJ; it's not just double collar tie all day like a lot of people mistakenly believe. That being said, I like to take it a step further and clinch in such a way that's conducive to strikes AND takedowns, and if you have experience in both legitimate MT AND a grappling art like judo or Greco-Roman, you're going to be a nightmare.

BTW, the best counter to an attempted double leg against the MT clinch? Elbows! Like the clinch, elbows are a sorely neglected aspect of MT outside of Thailand as well. My elbows are shitty by Thai standards, but I can still land them at will against 95% of the folks I've had the opportunity to spar with. It's like everyone just forgets elbows even exist.

I do agree that strikes are going to be the counter to a strong grappler, but is the actual CONTROL portion of the thai clinch that useful compared to a wrestler/judoka? Most of the high-level clinching I see is a battle of bicep and hand control, which would get you taken down pretty damn easily.

 

[SummerStriker]

I do agree that strikes are going to be the counter to a strong grappler, but is the actual CONTROL portion of the thai clinch that useful compared to a wrestler/judoka? Most of the high-level clinching I see is a battle of bicep and hand control, which would get you taken down pretty damn easily.

In my experience, it is easy to stop a TD when you have the plum.

The fact that you are striking from a dominant position means that the shot is almost always going to be obvious, without any sort of feint, usually ducking and pushing at the same time, and almost always with a little desperation. When they start to shoot, your hands already being on their head can start to push them down right away. The fact they have to get under your elbows gives you time to jump your feet away.

 

[DaGenius]

@Striker- Yeah I would guess that's what MMA sparring is for so I'll have to end up doing that at some point down the road as amateur MMA is the eventual goal I think. That's the most MMA coaching I've ever received so thanks for that

@genius yeah throws/trips and body knees are super handy Im enjoying that part. I'm thankful we aren't training clinch elbows because realistically I wont be using them. Dont see myself going pro but would love to compete amateur- perhaps I could get a match at home @ some point with elbow pads but Im not sure. A tragedy really because I love elbows and mine are sharp as F(^&% and I have long gangly arms....

Yeah man it's probably best to save elbows for a real situation. I've sparred with the elbow pads plenty and it isn't quite the same. But train hard and you'll be fine

 

[Jukai]

In my experience, it is easy to stop a TD when you have the plum.

The fact that you are striking from a dominant position means that the shot is almost always going to be obvious, without any sort of feint, usually ducking and pushing at the same time, and almost always with a little desperation. When they start to shoot, your hands already being on their head can start to push them down right away. The fact they have to get under your elbows gives you time to jump your feet away.

In my experience, it is easy to stop a TD when you have the plum.

The fact that you are striking from a dominant position means that the shot is almost always going to be obvious, without any sort of feint, usually ducking and pushing at the same time, and almost always with a little desperation. When they start to shoot, your hands already being on their head can start to push them down right away. The fact they have to get under your elbows gives you time to jump your feet away.

By plum, do you mean the double collar? And by takedown, do you mean stopping a wrestler when he initiates the clinch? Not sure how you're going to get a collar off a double attempt.

It's more difficult than you are making it, you have to get good grips on the neck before he closes that distance and gets their hooks in-- but the battle doesn't end there. You'll likely have luck against a pure BJJer or striker, but against a wrestler or judoka, that'll be a much harder feet (think how much trouble Anderson had against Weidman). And you need to primarily use straight knees, because if he closes distance and you try and knee from the side, the opponent will either regain his posture, or topple you over.
And this is all if you're in the middle of the octagon-- if you're by the cage, your opponent can walk you down and flatten you out.

But this is all just the double collar, which is considered a low level clinch position that isn't used much in high level Thai boxing.

I'm not saying to not learn the thai clinch, but it seems like something to as you're transitioning in and out of an actual MMA clinch, rather than depending on it. It just hasn't had much success in MMA.

Keep in mind, I've had a handful of Judo classes and one lesson on thai clinching and I'm mostly talking out of my ass.

 

[Kenny from MD]

Maybe I am crazy, but I have a pretty tough time doing any physical activity when someone is controlling my head and neck.

 

[georgejjr]

Maybe I am crazy, but I have a pretty tough time doing any physical activity when someone is controlling my head and neck.

Not crazy, just not a wrestler or judoka. If you can't keep posture, and throw/takedown when someone is controlling your head and neck you're going to have a very short career in those sports.

Again, there was a period after Anderson's dismantling of Franklin where people worked very hard on using the Thai clinch in MMA. It passed because it just doesn't work well on wrestlers, and MMA is currently full of them. And its even less effective on judoka. Mainly for a single reason - its very hard to break their postures, and without a broken posture, having your hands around their neck is just an invitation to be thrown.

 

[The Apostle]

Doesn't seem to work well against wrestlers in MMA. For instance Anderson Silva was doubled by Chonan when he tried the clinch - Chonan blocked the knee with his arms and followed it down for the double. Anderson also pulled out of his attempt against Henderson when Henderson went to control the hips (actually trying it against a Greco guy was pretty silly, something Anderson caught on to as soon as he tried it - he couldn't budge Henderson's posture), and if I recall correctly was punched when he tried it against Wiedman (same problem, couldn't budge Weidman's posture).

Lot's of other examples if you watch MMA, Anderson is just famous because of his use of it against Franklin.

The problem with using it against wrestlers in MMA is that if they're Greco its very hard to break their posture (keeping posture in any sort of clinch is what Greco guys do best), and if you can't break their posture you haven't got the Thai clinch but have given away the underhooks.

If they're folkstyle or freestyle wrestlers, they tend to just follow the knee down (Fedor showed that technique in one of his seminars too). You have one shot, typically having to go through their arms, and then end up on your back.

The Thai clinch works very well in striking, and against grapplers who let their posture be broken.

This guy gets it. This is an awesome breakdown my friend.

The Thai clinch against most seasoned grapplers should be an invitation for a takedown. The muscles used on a grappler to counter the clinch are the same ones used during bridges and all of the other neck stuff developed during years of being on the mats.

The Thai clinch person should basically have or get one flurry of knees or elbows before getting taken down from there. Against a lifetime grappler, if someone is purposely holding you by nearly your strongest muscles, your back, there is no excuse for not taking them down. They get like one shot as you come in to nail your chin.

Chael Sonnen is a great example of a fighter willing to take that one knee risk as he shoots those doubles. He knows if Anderson wants to try and land a knee, go ahead. The issue with Franklin was, unfortunately, he was too weak posture wise to use it to his advantage. Just watch the difference in how Anderson can control Franklin's head versus someone like Henderson's head or Sonnen's or Weidman's.

 

[Kenny from MD]

Not crazy, just not a wrestler or judoka. If you can't keep posture, and throw/takedown when someone is controlling your head and neck you're going to have a very short career in those sports.

Again, there was a period after Anderson's dismantling of Franklin where people worked very hard on using the Thai clinch in MMA. It passed because it just doesn't work well on wrestlers, and MMA is currently full of them. And its even less effective on judoka. Mainly for a single reason - its very hard to break their postures, and without a broken posture, having your hands around their neck is just an invitation to be thrown.

But isn't the question asking about being in the plum? I'm not a kick boxer, so I legitimately don't know, but I would assume high level guys enter that position in transition, rather than entering it and then trying to break posture, right?

I was under the impression the discussion was asking whether it was valid control when the plum is established, not whether or not it was easy to establish.

Again, I'm not a wrestler, judoka or kickboxer, so I'm asking these questions earnestly, not rhetorically.

 

[Jukai]

But isn't the question asking about being in the plum? I'm not a kick boxer, so I legitimately don't know, but I would assume high level guys enter that position in transition, rather than entering it and then trying to break posture, right?

I was under the impression the discussion was asking whether it was valid control when the plum is established, not whether or not it was easy to establish.

Again, I'm not a wrestler, judoka or kickboxer, so I'm asking these questions earnestly, not rhetorically.

What does it mean to establish it? Does that mean just grabbing the neck/head area, or does it mean getting their posture broken?

And TS asked for overall clinch work in Muay Thai, which is a lot of bicep/wrist control. Underhooks too.

 

[Kenny from MD]

By established I meant the posture being broken although I may be speaking incorrectly or not understand what I'm even asking, and my mind automatically went to a double collar type control with considering the other types of clinches

 

[ChrmnMa0]

Both of my wrestling coaches have used the double plum to great effect.
That being said, how the hell are people getting the double plum so easily? Watch some mid to high tier fights from Thailand. That double only happens when someone is severely outclassed or exhausted.

 

[Harukaze]

I do agree that strikes are going to be the counter to a strong grappler, but is the actual CONTROL portion of the thai clinch that useful compared to a wrestler/judoka? Most of the high-level clinching I see is a battle of bicep and hand control, which would get you taken down pretty damn easily.

The key and overall goal of the Thai clinch is head and neck control; however, the process of getting there involves hand control, wrist control, elbow control, bicep control, shoulder control, underhooks, body locks, neck control, collarbone pressure, over-unders, off-balancing, cross-facing, and footwork. And that's not even going into punching, elbowing, kneeing, kicking, and takedowns during clinch progression as well as during ingress and egress from the clinch.

Lots of people short-changing the Thai clinch when they don't even understand the entirety of it nor its nuances (not necessarily calling you out specifically, Jukai). I'm willing to bet that half the people naysaying the Thai clinch here don't even know what a "swan neck" clinch is, let alone how effective it is combined with an underhook.

 

[Rod1]

The key and overall goal of the Thai clinch is head and neck control; however, the process of getting there involves hand control, wrist control, elbow control, bicep control, shoulder control, underhooks, body locks, neck control, collarbone pressure, over-unders, off-balancing, cross-facing, and footwork. And that's not even going into punching, elbowing, kneeing, kicking, and takedowns during clinch progression as well as during ingress and egress from the clinch.

Lots of people short-changing the Thai clinch when they don't even understand the entirety of it nor its nuances (not necessarily calling you out specifically, Jukai). I'm willing to bet that half the people naysaying the Thai clinch here don't even know what a "swan neck" clinch is, let alone how effective it is combined with an underhook.

So basically wrestling.

And thats the problem with the MT clinch when you are facing against people who have trained for years, sparring at 100% and focusing only on that game.

I have grappled with MT guys and none could even budge my neck, and i didnt even tried to avoid anything they did i was being playful because they were "strikers" in my mind, i even used the MT clinch on them to see if i could pull something from there.

Are high lvl MT setting up their clinchwork with strikes? sure i guess, but do i think they can beat wrestlers in their own game? i seriously doubt it.

And in MMA nobody uses that clinch, because that shit simply doesnt works on wrestlers or even judokas.

[YT]3VAFcw64mYg[/YT]

 

[Harukaze]

So basically wrestling.

And thats the problem with the MT clinch when you are facing against people who have trained for years, sparring at 100% and focusing only on that game.

I have grappled with MT guys and none could even budge my neck, and i didnt even tried to avoid anything they did i was being playful because they were "strikers" in my mind, i even used the MT clinch on them to see if i could pull something from there.

Are high lvl MT setting up their clinchwork with strikes? sure i guess, but do i think they can beat wrestlers in their own game? i seriously doubt it.

And in MMA nobody uses that clinch, because that shit simply doesnt works on wrestlers or even judokas.

[YT]3VAFcw64mYg[/YT]

I'm a judo brown belt and I've used MT techniques in judo before. I've also sparred with sanshou veterans and found success with the MT clinch, and have played around with it under MMA rules with collegiate wrestlers with success. Without interspersed striking, it definitely has its limits, but with striking involved, it has its use as part of grappling in its entirety. Now if you were to try to use strictly MT clinching techniques in a wrestling match, of course you'd get dusted. Just like a wrestler would get dusted if striking were allowed.

I also challenge your experience by asserting that the MT guys you've trained with are low-level -- they couldn't break your posture because 95% of North American MT practitioners are shitty clinchers. If you've never clinched with a Lumpinee or Rajadamnern ex-champion or even veteran, you have no clue what you're talking about. But you don't have to take my word for it, Shinya Aoki confirmed the same thing when he went to Thailand to train his striking. He might not be a world-beater wrestler, but he is a collegiate champion judoka nonetheless. Anderson Silva used basic MT clinching to a degree of success early in his UFC run, but in all honesty, by Thai standards, his clinch SUCKED as well.

Your post really just demonstrated that you had shitty sparring partners and that you've never trained with a real pro nak muay.

 

[SummerStriker]

Ohhhhh snap, who is the one true scotsman now Rod?

 

[Chungungo]

I'm a judo brown belt and I've used MT techniques in judo before. I've also sparred with sanshou veterans and found success with the MT clinch, and have played around with it under MMA rules with collegiate wrestlers with success. Without interspersed striking, it definitely has its limits, but with striking involved, it has its use as part of grappling in its entirety. Now if you were to try to use strictly MT clinching techniques in a wrestling match, of course you'd get dusted. Just like a wrestler would get dusted if striking were allowed.

I also challenge your experience by asserting that the MT guys you've trained with are low-level -- they couldn't break your posture because 95% of North American MT practitioners are shitty clinchers. If you've never clinched with a Lumpinee or Rajadamnern ex-champion or even veteran, you have no clue what you're talking about. But you don't have to take my word for it, Shinya Aoki confirmed the same thing when he went to Thailand to train his striking. He might not be a world-beater wrestler, but he is a collegiate champion judoka nonetheless. Anderson Silva used basic MT clinching to a degree of success early in his UFC run, but in all honesty, by Thai standards, his clinch SUCKED as well.

Your post really just demonstrated that you had shitty sparring partners and that you've never trained with a real pro nak muay.

I get you, I trained Muay Thai very very little and the Kru was from Curitiba and also a judo black belt, the training in thai had a lot of clinch and he was very good combining both, neither in my country or Canada I saw so much time devoted o thai clinch-

 

[georgejjr]

I'm a judo brown belt and I've used MT techniques in judo before. I've also sparred with sanshou veterans and found success with the MT clinch, and have played around with it under MMA rules with collegiate wrestlers with success. Without interspersed striking, it definitely has its limits, but with striking involved, it has its use as part of grappling in its entirety. Now if you were to try to use strictly MT clinching techniques in a wrestling match, of course you'd get dusted. Just like a wrestler would get dusted if striking were allowed.

I also challenge your experience by asserting that the MT guys you've trained with are low-level -- they couldn't break your posture because 95% of North American MT practitioners are shitty clinchers. If you've never clinched with a Lumpinee or Rajadamnern ex-champion or even veteran, you have no clue what you're talking about. But you don't have to take my word for it, Shinya Aoki confirmed the same thing when he went to Thailand to train his striking. He might not be a world-beater wrestler, but he is a collegiate champion judoka nonetheless. Anderson Silva used basic MT clinching to a degree of success early in his UFC run, but in all honesty, by Thai standards, his clinch SUCKED as well.

Your post really just demonstrated that you had shitty sparring partners and that you've never trained with a real pro nak muay.

That's possible, I instruct grappling (judo and wrestling) and for MMA coaching I've worked with a number of MT instructors, but none of them have been champions from Thailand. On the other hand, if you're a brown belt in judo I'm guessing you weren't able to make the techniques work on Olympic level judoka or wrestlers either - the clinch minus the knee is quite legal in wrestling, so if you're making it work on that level judoka and wrestlers you'd be winning international level wrestling tournaments, and they'd be lining up to learn from you how you're doing it.

I'm basing my analysis on what I see in MMA, the closest you're going to get to seeing high level wrestlers/judoka/MT people compete against each other - and in high level MMA its being used with decreasing frequency, because people are having a hard time breaking posture with it. I certainly wouldn't rule out that's because the people using it (like Anderson Silva) simply aren't good at it, but then I have to ask why someone who is good at it doesn't come into MMA and clean up with it?

BTW, its the same question I pose to judoka and wrestlers who claim their favorite technique would be very effective in high level MMA if the fighters just did it right (and I hear this a lot ... typically as part of the context of MMA fighters have lousy technique).

Its easy enough to prove a technique is effective in MMA - go out and use it consistently in the UFC. No one doubts MT kicks, or boxing punches, or wrestling double legs are effective, because they're consistently seen to be effective, even essential, in the UFC. Techniques which aren't regularly successful in MMA aren't so convincing, whether its the MT clinch or judo's osoto gari (interestingly enough osoto gari has the same problem as the clinch, its hard to set up in MMA - spectacular when it works, but doesn't occur nearly as often in MMA as it does in judo).

 

[SummerStriker]

People say that moves like Osoto Gari and the Thai clinch aren't effective, but I think they are in effect all the time.

Osoto Gari and the Thai Clinch, as well as other simple, attacker initiated grappling techniques, are the context that all the other fighting is done by. If someone can't put you in a double collar tie and knee you, or can't jerk you off balance and reap your legs out, you have a lot more freedom in how you attack. You can duck your head, look at the ground, jerk and pull the person directly towards you, and so on and on, taking liberties without fear.

 

[DaGenius]

Ok so let me say a few things specific to what my training and sparring experience has been..

The strikes are a part of the clinch in MT. I don't know why people want to separate them but they do go together..especially in terms of setups. More on this later

Yes getting double inside clinch usually only happens when there is a big difference in skill levels. Ordinarily most of the work is done in neutral position assuming guys are near the same level.

Against judokas and no strikes, just for discussion, in sparring situations it has always served me well. The working up top and pummeling is usually a good counter to judo techniques. I've never trained judo so I don't know the names of the moves they try and this has been in mma work so they aren't wearing a gi. Point being I've never been afraid/concerned going against a judo guy with near the same level of training. I actually use more of a Thai style clinch against them to be ready to move and not get swept.

Against wrestlers, no strikes, is more difficult but there are moves that help me. When you get a grip and have that elbow in tight you can dictate the distance in close. I also approach with a more flatfooted stance because I need to keep my hips back if for some reason that knees aren't allowed. To visualize it I have one bicep or underhook and one behind the head with my elbow straight down into the middle of his chest and my hips way back. This is pretty much a holding position but if we are similar strength I am very difficult to take down.

Now to my earlier comment..strikes, at the very least knees, are an essential part of the clinch. Period. To take away strikes when dealing with a wrestler would be akin to me taking away his take downs. Nothing but grappling up top ie pummeling and body locks etc. in that case my Muay Thai clinch would be more than adequate to deal with him. If his takedowns are allowed then he has to worry about my knees finding his liver, chin and chest. This is Not to say that i am un-takedownable when i can use Strikes but it does mean that we both have a big weapon that the other has to worry about. Nothing wrong with theoretical discussion guys but you can't have it both ways.

 

[georgejjr]

People say that moves like Osoto Gari and the Thai clinch aren't effective, but I think they are in effect all the time.

Osoto Gari and the Thai Clinch, as well as other simple, attacker initiated grappling techniques, are the context that all the other fighting is done by. If someone can't put you in a double collar tie and knee you, or can't jerk you off balance and reap your legs out, you have a lot more freedom in how you attack. You can duck your head, look at the ground, jerk and pull the person directly towards you, and so on and on, taking liberties without fear.

I can partly see what you mean, but I think they're actually both stopped more by the same good posture that makes a lot of techniques hard to apply than by specific counter measures against them.

Nothing wrong with theoretical discussion guys but you can't have it both ways.

I enjoy the theoretical discussions; I just note that its not commonly effective in high level MMA - ie the UFC (same for osoto gari), and since neither are secret, unheard-of techniques, I suggest a reason why they're not often effective - both involve breaking posture in a way that's hard to do against good wrestlers when striking is allowed.

Compare to MT kicks (same style as the clinch) - everyone uses the kicks in MMA effectively, few use the clinch. Why's that? Or compare harai-goshi from judo to osoto gari - you see harai-goshi fairly regularly, you seldom see osoto-gari. Why is that?

Typically when one technique from a style catches on, and a different technique, common in the style, doesn't, its because the one that doesn't catch on is hard to actually apply in the new context.