Thai clinch + MMA- Does it hold up against grapplers?

[Catweiser]

this is standup grappling so I'm putting it here.

Im just learning the thai clinch for the first time. It seems to be built around the ruleset of a striking art where people want to exchange knees, execute trips, but not really into controlling someone to the ground and pound. Seems to me that any wrestling/judo experience would negate the thai clinch- mainly because a wrestler/judoka isnt interested in hanging out in the hugging position and exchanging knees.


I hear some people say a reason to learn Muay Thai for MMA is specifically the clinch- prithee sherdog what makes it useful?

 

[SummerStriker]

It is just a part of the puzzle. The full Thai clinch isn't as important as learning strikes from the collar elbow tie. If you don't become good a thai clinching you will be vulnerable to it. Yes, it is possible to get taken down from the double collar tie. Learning Muay Thai will still be the base you learn to endure and give strikes from the clinch.

 

[Einarr]

Plum versus a grappler = getting double legged.

 

[ronbro]

i've rolled with very good muay thai guy who is also good in bjj and i didn't have too hard of a time dealing with the thai clinch when we started from the feet.

now if we were striking i might have died, but the clinch didn't trouble me much because grappling is different

 

[ManofSteel]

BJJ is pretty aware of the knees from the plum, you get trained to put your hands out and block the knee. I think it would work probably a bit better on a boxer, than a wrestler or jiu jitsu guy. If you go for the plum, I could get double underhooks and bring you down.

 

[Harukaze]

Hello, Muay Thai and judo/BJJ hobbyist here! For fun, I like to try to integrate all techniques I've learned under fun, open-rules sparring (revolutionary, ain't it? LOL) and I can tell you this: the Muay Thai clinch is severely underdeveloped in most Western Muay Thai programs out there. Transitioning, scrambles, and shifting control are just as important in the authentic MT clinch as they are in judo and BJJ; it's not just double collar tie all day like a lot of people mistakenly believe. That being said, I like to take it a step further and clinch in such a way that's conducive to strikes AND takedowns, and if you have experience in both legitimate MT AND a grappling art like judo or Greco-Roman, you're going to be a nightmare.

BTW, the best counter to an attempted double leg against the MT clinch? Elbows! Like the clinch, elbows are a sorely neglected aspect of MT outside of Thailand as well. My elbows are shitty by Thai standards, but I can still land them at will against 95% of the folks I've had the opportunity to spar with. It's like everyone just forgets elbows even exist.

 

[cjwhitt51]

The thai clinch is only useful if your striking thats what it is designed for. There are positional elements of it that are more and less applicable to MMA. Just like tying up in wrestling with an over under or any other position does not strategically account for knees, elbows, or dirty boxing. Not that without proper training it can't be used strategically, but to act like a wrestler is just going to double leg anyone who tries to clinch without eating knees is unrealistic. In either art there are positions that work better for an MMA scenario but if thats what your training for learn both. There are tons of examples of wrestler vs strikers being knocked out in the clinch.

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

Plum versus a grappler = getting double legged.

This. You're pretty much conceding double underhooks, so whatever the guys favorite takedown is, he is hitting it.

 

[bLikeWater]

Hello, Muay Thai and judo/BJJ hobbyist here! For fun, I like to try to integrate all techniques I've learned under fun, open-rules sparring (revolutionary, ain't it? LOL) and I can tell you this: the Muay Thai clinch is severely underdeveloped in most Western Muay Thai programs out there. Transitioning, scrambles, and shifting control are just as important in the authentic MT clinch as they are in judo and BJJ; it's not just double collar tie all day like a lot of people mistakenly believe. That being said, I like to take it a step further and clinch in such a way that's conducive to strikes AND takedowns, and if you have experience in both legitimate MT AND a grappling art like judo or Greco-Roman, you're going to be a nightmare.

BTW, the best counter to an attempted double leg against the MT clinch? Elbows! Like the clinch, elbows are a sorely neglected aspect of MT outside of Thailand as well. My elbows are shitty by Thai standards, but I can still land them at will against 95% of the folks I've had the opportunity to spar with. It's like everyone just forgets elbows even exist.

So are you in the west now? Do the people you're sparring with know you're going for elbows? I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure in most western non-pro sparring programs it's assumed you won't be using elbows unless otherwise specified...

 

[orangeclay]

Clinch minus striking just isn't that great but with striking it rocks. Clinch assumes your opponent won't duck down due to getting kneed, but without the knee there isn't much to stop the person from getting the double leg.

 

[Gambledub]

straight grappling... no
with strikes... absolutely

with a proper thai clinch, it should be pretty difficult to simply dig in some underhooks or shoot for a double. but it depends how you do it. in muay thai they tend to have their hips close to each other then quickly separate and throw knees because there is little threat of the takedown. in mma you have to keep your hips further back to minimize the takedown risk, but your opponent can also knee you

 

[Harukaze]

So are you in the west now? Do the people you're sparring with know you're going for elbows? I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure in most western non-pro sparring programs it's assumed you won't be using elbows unless otherwise specified...

I always ask my sparring partners if it's OK before going for it. If they agree, we both go light on the elbows (placement more than power, with pads as needed/agreed upon). All the instructors that have gotten to know me have given me their approval (or disapproval) as well, so I follow gym rules of course.

Same goes with knees to the head.

straight grappling... no
with strikes... absolutely

with a proper thai clinch, it should be pretty difficult to simply dig in some underhooks or shoot for a double. but it depends how you do it. in muay thai they tend to have their hips close to each other then quickly separate and throw knees because there is little threat of the takedown. in mma you have to keep your hips further back to minimize the takedown risk, but your opponent can also knee you

This man knows exactly what he's talking about.

 

[georgejjr]

Doesn't seem to work well against wrestlers in MMA. For instance Anderson Silva was doubled by Chonan when he tried the clinch - Chonan blocked the knee with his arms and followed it down for the double. Anderson also pulled out of his attempt against Henderson when Henderson went to control the hips (actually trying it against a Greco guy was pretty silly, something Anderson caught on to as soon as he tried it - he couldn't budge Henderson's posture), and if I recall correctly was punched when he tried it against Wiedman (same problem, couldn't budge Weidman's posture).

Lot's of other examples if you watch MMA, Anderson is just famous because of his use of it against Franklin.

The problem with using it against wrestlers in MMA is that if they're Greco its very hard to break their posture (keeping posture in any sort of clinch is what Greco guys do best), and if you can't break their posture you haven't got the Thai clinch but have given away the underhooks. Hip control especially is problematic if you're trying the Thai clinch - if the other guy controls your hips and breaks you backwards you've got problems ... and greco guys are the best in the world at controlling hips. There might be examples of greco guys being successfully Thai clinched, but I can't think of many.

If they're folkstyle or freestyle wrestlers, they tend to just follow the knee down (Fedor showed that technique in one of his seminars too). You have one shot, typically having to go through their arms, and then end up on your back.

And judo guys are just happy to be in the clinch - again, very hard to break their posture, and a lot of their throws work exceptionally well at thai clinch distance - its almost the prefered distance. And raising a knee to strike with it when your opponent's posture is unbroken is pretty much giving up a throw; for judoka one of their fondest hopes is that their opponent will try a thai clinch, it solves the whole problem of getting into the range where they've spent 90% of their practice time ... basically they'll have spent much more time at thai clinch range than any thai clincher (however it occurs to me that maybe judoka should start trying the thai clinch in MMA for just that reason, they might be able to make it work).

The Thai clinch works very well in striking, and against grapplers who let their posture be broken. Which typically means against non-grapplers, or BJJ'ers (who don't have the automatic response against breaking posture that wrestlers and judoka have). Anderson's attempt against Weidman is pretty typical - he reaches out but can never establish it, because he can't break Weidman's posture. The only chance to break the posture is to get in close (from a distance all you can use is your arms, which don't provide the leverage you need against someone used to maintaining posture), and in close you're in range for hip control/double/various body lock throws.

Basically, wrestlers and judoka don't let you set it up, either in terms of posture or time. Which is why its becoming rare in MMA.

 

[shunyata]

Just remember that hanging out in a double collar tie position leaves you open to being thrown. If you're delivering strikes with it and forcing the opponent to defend that's one thing, but if you stall to catch your breath with a double collar tie on your opponent, there's an opening for you to get thrown.

 

[Higus]

Hello, Muay Thai and judo/BJJ hobbyist here! For fun, I like to try to integrate all techniques I've learned under fun, open-rules sparring (revolutionary, ain't it? LOL) and I can tell you this: the Muay Thai clinch is severely underdeveloped in most Western Muay Thai programs out there. Transitioning, scrambles, and shifting control are just as important in the authentic MT clinch as they are in judo and BJJ; it's not just double collar tie all day like a lot of people mistakenly believe. That being said, I like to take it a step further and clinch in such a way that's conducive to strikes AND takedowns, and if you have experience in both legitimate MT AND a grappling art like judo or Greco-Roman, you're going to be a nightmare.

BTW, the best counter to an attempted double leg against the MT clinch? Elbows! Like the clinch, elbows are a sorely neglected aspect of MT outside of Thailand as well. My elbows are shitty by Thai standards, but I can still land them at will against 95% of the folks I've had the opportunity to spar with. It's like everyone just forgets elbows even exist.

I agree with most of this. Clinch work is under-utilized in the west. I'm reading a lot of responses saying that wrestlers will just get the double under and while there is truth to that, it needs to be mentioned that a good clincher will be constantly setting their opponents off balance with quarter turns, trips and sweeps as well as knees and elbows from all different angles.

 

[Catweiser]

It is just a part of the puzzle. The full Thai clinch isn't as important as learning strikes from the collar elbow tie. If you don't become good a thai clinching you will be vulnerable to it. Yes, it is possible to get taken down from the double collar tie. Learning Muay Thai will still be the base you learn to endure and give strikes from the clinch.

I think I dig. for the purposes of mma I guess I shouldnt think of it as "thai clinch vs wrestling" but "learn thai clinch for what it's good at...and learn wrestling"

especially since I'm not a thai boxer with 15 years experience moving into mma- just new and getting pieces to put together.

 

[Rod1]

I agree with most of this. Clinch work is under-utilized in the west. I'm reading a lot of responses saying that wrestlers will just get the double under and while there is truth to that, it needs to be mentioned that a good clincher will be constantly setting their opponents off balance with quarter turns, trips and sweeps as well as knees and elbows from all different angles.

The problem as people said if that if you are facing a far better grappler, it will be hard for you as a striker to properly break their posture. And even if you do do break their posture, they are pretty likely to recover when you start striking.

My favorite thai clinch counter was Miura vs Condit.

 

[SummerStriker]

I think I dig. for the purposes of mma I guess I shouldnt think of it as "thai clinch vs wrestling" but "learn thai clinch for what it's good at...and learn wrestling"

especially since I'm not a thai boxer with 15 years experience moving into mma- just new and getting pieces to put together.

Yeah.

It is impossible to be the best at every game. You just need to learn something about every game so that you can play.

To be successful at mma, or for freestyle without weight classes, you can't count on being the best at what you do well. You might feel like you are a great wrestler and shitty boxer, and all of your experience leads you to believe that is true. That doesn't mean that you won't come against an opponent who is better at wrestling and worse at boxing. People watching will say:

"He took you out of your game ."

Or

"Wow, I didn't know you were such a good boxer."

The truth is that it is still just you - your expression of fighting, attacking the weakness you sense in your opponent while not being attached to fighting with an image your care about.

When you learn wrestling clinch and Thai clinch, you don't get to pick what's useful or what gets used. If you try, you might as well shove a greased pig up a slippery hill. It is futile, but people might enjoy watching you struggle. To be really good, you just got to get a lot of experience with a lot of different people. That way, you can learn to feel weaknesses and exploit them with whatever kind of movement is necessary.

 

[DaGenius]

It works as part of your overall game but as its still standup it would do much against full ground work.

Now adding clinch plus Bjj and you will be trouble for guys who are just doing Bjj. Elbows are only for real fights but clinch plus knees and throws you can really give someone the business combined with your grappling art

 

[Catweiser]

@Striker- Yeah I would guess that's what MMA sparring is for so I'll have to end up doing that at some point down the road as amateur MMA is the eventual goal I think. That's the most MMA coaching I've ever received so thanks for that

@genius yeah throws/trips and body knees are super handy Im enjoying that part. I'm thankful we aren't training clinch elbows because realistically I wont be using them. Dont see myself going pro but would love to compete amateur- perhaps I could get a match at home @ some point with elbow pads but Im not sure. A tragedy really because I love elbows and mine are sharp as F(^&% and I have long gangly arms....