Terminator (Police Station) or Heat (Shootout scene) - Which is the better scene?

[crabmeat]

I don't know I was in the Marine Corps infantry we sure as fuck weren't using Hollywood videos for tactical training. We were often shown videos of real gun fights. The real thing is just different.

It was a widely circulated tool amongst all the branches. Saw it a few times myself as an attention getter/ice breaker at the start of class. The younger guys said it was used at SOI-West. Pre-GWOT there was a total lack of media with real world gunfights. Back then, there was a total lack of budget that was heavy handed on Cold War tactics. As with tradition, we adjust late in the game.

 

[Protectandserve]

Absolutely Heat.

 

[Waingro]

Heat obviously!

 

[DoomPatrol]

https://bettertoenails.substack.com/p/heat-1995-dir-michael-mann

Well if we can't trust a movie director to give an accurate assessment of military behavior then who can we trust?

It was a widely circulated tool amongst all the branches. Saw it a few times myself as an attention getter/ice breaker at the start of class. The younger guys said it was used at SOI-West. Pre-GWOT there was a total lack of media with real world gunfights. Back then, there was a total lack of budget that was heavy handed on Cold War tactics. As with tradition, we adjust late in the game.

Go figure if anyone would watch that lame shit for motivation it would be Hollywood Marines. But that's a fair point. When I was in there was a decent amount of footage from the invasion and battles to show us. Never had to resort to watching movies for tactics when your seniors are the dudes they made movies about.

 

[cincymma79]

Well if we can't trust a movie director to give an accurate assessment of military behavior then who can we trust?



Go figure if anyone would watch that lame shit for motivation it would be Hollywood Marines. But that's a fair point. When I was in there was a decent amount of footage from the invasion and battles to show us. Never had to resort to watching movies for tactics when your seniors are the dudes they made movies about.

Did you bother to read the article. He’s right you’re wrong.

 

[crabmeat]

Well if we can't trust a movie director to give an accurate assessment of military behavior then who can we trust?



Go figure if anyone would watch that lame shit for motivation it would be Hollywood Marines. But that's a fair point. When I was in there was a decent amount of footage from the invasion and battles to show us. Never had to resort to watching movies for tactics when your seniors are the dudes they made movies about.

Heh. It had a pretty heavy rotation at Quantico. We had a few guys with experience (Grenada, Gulf War, Somalia), but not as extensive. As you know, the 03xx field turnaround rate is in the 80's, and we didn't have a steady supply to draw from ongoing conflict. In the least, they drew from the deficiencies when we were in Somalia, which cast the mold for today. Most notably the importance of low level tactical leaders that was the centerpiece in the Three Block War doctrine.

 

[DoomPatrol]

Did you bother to read the article. He’s right you’re wrong.

I read the article. I just didn't see anything in there that was particularly convincing. The military can't afford a training video?

There's nothing in the movie that is so amazing that they would ever have a real need to do that.

If your CQB instructors pull out Hollywood videos to teach you how "real gunfights work" then you might need a new instructor. You don't need silly fiction to teach a hammer pair or Mozambique drill.

 

[DoomPatrol]

I'd actually love to see any movies investigate self defense gun fights and attempt to portray an honest depiction.

In Hollywood everyone is popping off headshots while they walk and say really clever things.

In real life even people with training fumble around, maybe their hand is shaking, they may miss an important step like remember to rack the slide and the connect percentage is extremely low. If I recall correctly maybe 1/3 of shots hit the intended target.

Never been in a gunfight, hope I never have to be. I also hope our military provides sufficient training to prepare soldiers, including trying to simulate dealing with the stress factor.

I've been in a handful of close quarter gun fights and yeah it's way more hectic than you can imagine. It's also easy to train like a badass until rounds start flying at your face.

I had a guy put 6 rounds at me from less than 20 yards away using some AK variant, and he missed every shot. I was moving at a snails pace and I'm convinced that a more competent and trained soldier would have killed me easily. 3 of the rounds were literally inches from my face and neck region. Who knows why he missed but I'm lucky as shit he sucked at shooting.

The real thing is just so surreal.

 

[cincymma79]

I read the article. I just didn't see anything in there that was particularly convincing. The military can't afford a training video?

There's nothing in the movie that is so amazing that they would ever have a real need to do that.

If your CQB instructors pull out Hollywood videos to teach you how "real gunfights work" then you might need a new instructor. You don't need silly fiction to teach a hammer pair or Mozambique drill.

It’s the reload specifically. It’s in the article. Val actually does a very good job here.

 

[jeff7b9]

I've been in a handful of close quarter gun fights and yeah it's way more hectic than you can imagine. It's also easy to train like a badass until rounds start flying at your face.

I had a guy put 6 rounds at me from less than 20 yards away using some AK variant, and he missed every shot. I was moving at a snails pace and I'm convinced that a more competent and trained soldier would have killed me easily. 3 of the rounds were literally inches from my face and neck region. Who knows why he missed but I'm lucky as shit he sucked at shooting.

The real thing is just so surreal.

I'll take your word for it.

The thing I find sort of fascinating is the idea of how people react to that extremely elevated level of stress and pressure.

I don't think you could really train for THAT element, but I suppose you could train to have all of your motions completely dialed in (site acquisition, clearing a jam, reloading, etc) have strong habits of the fundamentals practiced to the point of muscle memory and just hope that you can keep it together when the time comes.


Thats crazy.
Good for you for living to tell the tale.

 

[BisexualMMA]

I've been in a handful of close quarter gun fights and yeah it's way more hectic than you can imagine. It's also easy to train like a badass until rounds start flying at your face.

I had a guy put 6 rounds at me from less than 20 yards away using some AK variant, and he missed every shot. I was moving at a snails pace and I'm convinced that a more competent and trained soldier would have killed me easily. 3 of the rounds were literally inches from my face and neck region. Who knows why he missed but I'm lucky as shit he sucked at shooting.

The real thing is just so surreal.

 

[Woldog]

Neither are any good compared to this

 

[HHJ]

Terminator...the score takes it over the top. That cop getting KO'd by a knee to the tummy is pretty pathetic though.

Yeah he got hit by a knee made of metal

 

[mmamxfan]

I voted Terminator. But this scene gave me nightmares when I was younger. Sorry it's unrelated to the topic, but it is kinda the same concept.

 

[Super_Nintendo]

This is the best

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

Just imagine if they had realistic sound for the Terminator shootout scene. I think it would have won this matchup if that's the case.

 

[HaulParris]

Heat all the way

 

[dirtypablo]

The heat shootout is fun to watch, but its also absurd. First, why did Val even start shooting? He sees the cops, did he really think that he would be able to kill a couple and that would be that? Like there weren't going to be tons of other cops there as well, and starting shooting wouldn't just increase the odds that the cops would just start shooting too, increasing their odds of not making it out? I thought these guys were all seasoned pros?

Then, the driving - when they're first leaving, the straight road ahead of them is fairly clear. At roughly 5mins in the video posted, they go through the intersection and there is some traffic ahead, but no police barricade. Then the camera flips to Robert Dinero's perspective, and they're not yet through the intersection they just went through half a second earlier. Then, a bunch of cops are perpendicular to their them, despite the fact that those same cops were perpendicular to them 10 seconds ago when they hopped in the car, and somehow they were able to keep the pace and run alongside a car that had been pedal to the metal for the last 10 seconds. Then, a few moments later the traffic up ahead now includes a police barricade with police standing outside their cars ready to shoot - somehow these police got their cars aligned, got out and ready to shoot in less than 10 seconds, and these guys didn't see this before they crossed the intersection, where they clearly could have turned right. Did these seasoned pros only have one possible escape route? No plan for what to do if there was a traffic jam at that intersection? Really? And why didn't they buy a few used old beater cars from junkyards and leave the keys in the gloveboxes around the area as backup escape cars? Really didn't think of anything like that? I could keep going, if you follow the camera motion throughout that scene there so many changes in shot/alignment of the scene and where people are that make zero sense in addition to a whole host of other things that are completely unrealistic. Its a great scene, but the idea that its some super realistic shootout just isn't true.

 

[HARRISON_3]

This C.I Hugh Benny just called in on a bank their looking at or something…

Spoiler

Far East National Bank 11:30!

 

[Peteyandjia]

https://bettertoenails.substack.com/p/heat-1995-dir-michael-mann

Also, Val Kilmer's reaction / reenactment is funny

( timestamped: )



^^
(This whole thing is worth a watch for any HEAT nut btw)