Techniques you feel are outdated or just plain bad

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Bruce Calavera, Nov 1, 2010.

  1. Bruce Calavera

    Bruce Calavera Purple Belt

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    About a year ago I was the guy in the gym trying to create the most ridiculous attribute based techniques you could imagine and often times they would work just out of the suprise factor when I'd full nelson someone with my legs or go inverted for no reason. This stage helped me learning something. The shittier the technique the faster everyone is to negate or counter it.

    Now I'm in a stage where I'm only doing techniques that are high percentage and my focus is to increase the positive outcomes of already time proven techniques. My goal isn't to win, it's to win without breaking a sweat and to give my opponent no room for hope. If it wouldn't work against Marcelo, Jacare, or Roger why bother putting it into your game?

    All of this being said what techniques do you feel are too high risk or violate what Jiu Jitsu should be; conservation of energy. I'll start. I feel the basic armbar from guard is an outdated technique. Each step in the technique has an extremely effective counter. Sure there are plenty of recounters to those but unless you're specifcally doing the armbar to setup say...a flower sweep it's a flawed technique. I've only ever see someone pull it off on someone who was either A) much weaker or B) much less experienced. Do I think it's impossible to setup an armbar from guard? No, but I do feel the traditional armbar should be updated or discarded.
     
  2. notshayndavis

    notshayndavis Yellow Belt

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    I think it mostly works as a counter if your opponent does something dumb like can opener you. Other then that, if the armbar is there, I'd definitely rather just go high guard and either flower sweep or armdrag if its no gi. But its just an important part of so many submission chains where its totally legitimate, that its good to practice going strait for it sometimes.

    I'll chime in with the both hands on the hip guard-break. Great way to get yourself hip bump swept, collar choked, kimura'd or guillotined. We practice countering that all the time because it always shows up at tournaments.
     
  3. randomg1t

    randomg1t EVERYTIME CHAMPION

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    i am positive there isn't a single technique in my arsenal that would work against marcelo, jacare or roger. not because the techniques i use are bs, but because these guys are the best grapplers of their generation. their technique is as close to perfection as you can get.

    again, i think roger would disagree. look at the armbar he broke jacare's arm with. look at the triangle he put xande in. that's pretty basic stuff and he's catching the best guys in the world with it. i think pretty much everything he does has been done to everyone a million times and they all know the correct counters to it - yet he still does it to everyone. and he's only one example, there are many finishes in even the highest level of bjj with the most basic moves.

    it isn't so much about which technique you use, but how well you use it. sure, setups are a big part of it, but not the only part.
     
  4. Butler

    Butler Orange Belt

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    I think you're over analysing things.

    You're doing what you're meant to in BJJ: taking what works for you and building your own game.

    If you refined down BJJ to what worked on Roger, you'd end up with a very stagnant art, and arguably a devolution of what we currently have, where (in my experience at least), you're positively encouraged to add your own spin to techniques in a way which suits you, your body type, your personality, your training goals...

    Also, as you rightly say, training the armbar from guard isn't simply an isolated technique; not only does it teach many fundamentals of BJJ as a whole (angles, hip movement, grips), it also sets up other options.
     
  5. DiscipleOfPog

    DiscipleOfPog Green Belt

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    Here's how I see it:
    A technique will/should never be completely discarded if there is ever a time or place when it does work.
    If the basic armbar from guard works 1/250 times, that means there is still a possible way for that position to actually break someone's arm, which means it should never just be forgotten.

    If you begin neglected or altering the basic armbar from guard, guys will start neglecting or altering its defense, and then someone will come around a few years later tapping everyone out with the three step armbar from guard! Any technique that ever works should be respected.

    I don't mean only the armbar from guard either, I'm talking about any technique.
     
  6. Doctor Venture

    Doctor Venture Black Belt

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    The way I see it no technique is outdated or doesn't work. It just may not work the way you want it to, or be worth drilling because it doesn't fit in well with your game. I use the armbar to set up a few subs and sweeps. If I don't have a good setup and good control of the arm, the armbar will be countered and I wont get to my more high percentage move.
     
  7. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    This is my philosophy as well. Of course, train the higher percentage stuff. But you're not always facing Marcelo or Jacare. Some tough guy on the street isn't going to be throwing high level counters at you, so it might be better to throw something quick and simple his way. Or maybe you're in a competition at the black belt level, in which case you're not going to try a basic armbar from the guard with no set up. But don't toss something out straight away. The basic armbar from guard that we all learn is almost like a drill to learn the move. The black belt who is teaching it to you knows that he's not using it on his training partners just like that, but he knows that there's a value in training it. I used to drill the move like hell when I was a white belt, and now as a purple belt I catch armbars from the guard all the time, even though I don't do it quite like that anymore.
     
  8. Bruce Calavera

    Bruce Calavera Purple Belt

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    My point is you would choose certain techniques over others when facing these guy while discarding others. If you had to choose a limited set of techniques you're probably going to choose a cross choke over a tornado sweep.

    You can't argue that an armbar doesn't destroy elbows. I'm not trying to do that. All I'm saying is that basic setup that we're all taught is ineffective against a person of equal skill and strength. And in regard to the comment about Roger doing techniques on people that know and are attempting the counters, I think Roger is doing something we aren't.

    Also, I'm not argueing that the basics don't work. On the contrary, I'm arguing that the basics ARE what works. I just don't feel the basic armbar from guard uses the basics. I think it's a beginer technique, but doesn't apply the basic principles of BJJ in the same way as, for example, the triangle.

    I just don't see the point of working on a technique that works 10% of the time when I have another technique from the same position that works 50% of the time. To me training the lesser percentage technique is a waste of time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2010
  9. randomg1t

    randomg1t EVERYTIME CHAMPION

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    i wasn't trying to say armbars break arms. i was saying roger armbarred jacare with nothing fancy, and he triangled xande by just controlling his arms and slapping the triangle on. he didn't do a double hip bump into a kimura rubberguard sweep shit setup. he just took his arms and triangled him.

    and yeah obviously he's doing what we aren't, but it isn't some unknown setup. look at his movement. it's basic stuff. the thing that sets him apart from you and me is that we pretty much fuck everything up and he does it perfect. but he doesn't really set his subs with with any spectacular moves. he does things that can be countered and he still gets them because he does them right.
     
  10. iheartthemount

    iheartthemount Blue Belt

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    i think as we get deeper into the evolution of bjj, that many classic moves will seem outdated but still effective depending on your game. when i started there was like 7 submissions everyone learned first but now that the game has gone so far, maybe i can skip something like a kimura that i just don't see me pulling off on larger competition and focus more in a guillotine instead.

    but to talk about your question of technique that go against BJJ or what it should be, i would say the neck crank. I think all bjj should be "learned" techniques. I mean its just basic instinct to grab someone behind the neck and pull them into it. I am not saying it is ineffective; what I am saying though is it's not really used to set anything up and the technique to apply it is rather simple. This probably came out wrong and I know people will argue but I just don't see a neck crank as part of me developing "my flow".
     
  11. HomerPlata

    HomerPlata Purple Belt

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    Gotta disagree about the armbar from guard thing. Everything happens in cycles, and I'm sure you're at the part of the cycle where it's just not working for you anymore, but it will come round again. As a rule, I don't think any technique should be discarded as outdated. Maybe just place greater emphasis on the ones that are higher percentage, but still don't neglect the "unlikely" ones.

    No techniques should be counted out completely though. I mean, wasn't everyone recently saying the guard was dead in MMA until Werdum beat Fedor?
     
  12. synyster

    synyster Brown Belt

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    this
     
  13. Bruce Calavera

    Bruce Calavera Purple Belt

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    Haha I wasn't say you specifcially are arguing that armbars don't break arms. I guess I worded that wrong. And I'm not saying setups need to be fancy. But if you're picking techniques to put in your game and to constantly drill shouldn't you pick the ones that work on black belts? And I still believe there are some detailes that Roger is using that we aren't for a number of his techniques. I believe that he's added to the techniques and emphasised the principles to make his techniques work more effeciently.
     
  14. Bruce Calavera

    Bruce Calavera Purple Belt

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    You could be right. Maybe we're just going through a period where everyone has great armbar defense and as the techniques are neglected they'll become prominent again.
     
  15. NeoOsiris

    NeoOsiris Purple Belt

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    If you don't know the basics how are you going to progress. Yeah you won't be catching guys with armbars from your guard, but if you don't know how to armbar from the most basic position how do you expect to add that into your transitional game. In any form of training, there are basics for a reason. Because these are things that usually tend to rear their face at some point. It's like those retards back in the late 90s who said BJJ was done because people know all the escapes and defenses... uhh no you idiots, a RNC isn't easily defended by simply pulling the arm off the top of the head. Sometimes you can't do it, there are so many things that factor into executing proper technique. Also to note, even if you have a great armbar from the guard if all you do is keep trying to go for it you won't even armbar the lowest blue belt cause they'll see it coming. You can do different things to raise the percentages of techniques whether its through transitional setups or what not. Don't just close the book on things because it never works for you in training, work at it, find ways to get to that specific position. Yeah an armbar is an armbar but there are so many different ways you can catch guys with it.
     
  16. MUFC

    MUFC Brown Belt

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    There are some super elaborate sweeps from spider guard that I think are a bit meh, but I have to learn them so I can see them coming in competition.
     
  17. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    I think armbar from guard is still highly effective, you just have to threaten other attacks at the same time to get him to give it to you. I used to suck at armbar from guard but I just started working on it a lot recently and I've been getting it a lot more, and on some of the higher level guys in my gym.

    One basic move I'm not finding so effective against higher level guys is the cross collar choke from guard. It's too easy to just posture up. You have to have your opponent's posture completely and hopelessly broken to finish that choke.
     
  18. Jdonw

    Jdonw Green Belt

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    That is a terrible idea. If you discard the most basic, everybody with 3 months training sees it coming armbar, nobody would even understand an advanced armbar setup. The basic armbar isn't the same as what you will do in your matches. But it will teach you the mechanics and theory to set up the armbar from other positions and set ups.
     
  19. Bruce Calavera

    Bruce Calavera Purple Belt

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    So then update it and make it better instead of discarding it.
     
  20. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    He's saying you should learn the basic one first to practice the mechanics.
     

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